Can We Stop The Nonsense Here?

[Justy90]

Can we stop creatively painting all Anglicans as homosexual accepting dyed in the wool liberals who are rolling out the red carpet to welcome everyone who wants to be a church goer who cannot accept orthodoxy in a real Christian life? These are Episcopalians who are but 1/39th of the Anglican Communion. Get that?? 1/39th!! You know who you are and you know what you are doing. Stop it please. This in essence would be just like someone declaring the Roman Catholic church as the world’s largest closet homosexual club for men for all time. These are needless unecessary labels that are meant to discredit and demean. Just stop it!

 

[ralphinal]

I hate to say it, but the answer will be no, people will not stop. There are two reasons why, one is valid but the other is likely. I will let you pick which is which.

Although they make up a small group, they are not a fringe element in the least. The media picks up on the doings of the Episcopalians and, because of that, it is a fair topic of conversation. No, it does not mean that all Anglicans should be painted with the same brush, but the actions are strange from a “mainline” group.

The other reason is that many people on this thread see two things from Episcopalian behavior. First, it is proof that they have lost the Truth of Christ’s Church. Second, they see a reason to gloat over this failure by men to run a man-made church.

 

[gamewell45]

Can we stop creatively painting all Anglicans as homosexual accepting dyed in the wool liberals who are rolling out the red carpet to welcome everyone who wants to be a church goer who cannot accept orthodoxy in a real Christian life? These are Episcopalians who are but 1/39th of the Anglican Communion. Get that?? 1/39th!! You know who you are and you know what you are doing. Stop it please. This in essence would be just like someone declaring the Roman Catholic church as the world’s largest closet homosexual club for men for all time. These are needless unecessary labels that are meant to discredit and demean. Just stop it!

Its unlikely to stop; people have their reasons whether justified or not. What goes on in here is no different then some of the Protestant forums where Roman Catholic Priests are defined as nothing more then being licensed pedophiles. Either way its wrong on both sides, but for whatever the reason many people tend to be mean spirited; just don’t drop down to their level and keep it civil.

Just my two cents.

 

[prodigalson12]

Can we stop creatively painting all Anglicans as homosexual accepting dyed in the wool liberals who are rolling out the red carpet to welcome everyone who wants to be a church goer who cannot accept orthodoxy in a real Christian life? These are Episcopalians who are but 1/39th of the Anglican Communion. Get that?? 1/39th!! You know who you are and you know what you are doing. Stop it please. This in essence would be just like someone declaring the Roman Catholic church as the world’s largest closet homosexual club for men for all time. These are needless unecessary labels that are meant to discredit and demean. Just stop it!

If it’s any consolation, our parish priest is perceived as flamboyantly gay, and I find it impossible to deny it, some of the members have no concept at all, so clearly don’t know, others are rather burying their heads in the sand, others are like me in this regard. He leaves in Feb, but it’s been a test of my faith, adopting Ignatius mentality in order to deal with it.

 

[eucharisteo]

It does not follow that a man is gay simply because he seems flamboyant or has a lisp. I’ve known quite a few a feminine men that are happily married with many children. I knew macho priestly types that were vulgarly practicing same sex attraction.

 

[Leao]

Can we stop creatively painting all Anglicans as homosexual accepting dyed in the wool liberals who are rolling out the red carpet to welcome everyone who wants to be a church goer who cannot accept orthodoxy in a real Christian life? These are Episcopalians who are but 1/39th of the Anglican Communion. Get that?? 1/39th!! You know who you are and you know what you are doing. Stop it please. This in essence would be just like someone declaring the Roman Catholic church as the world’s largest closet homosexual club for men for all time. These are needless unecessary labels that are meant to discredit and demean. Just stop it!

All these gross generalizations are down to people drawing their opinions from what they read on the Internet/newspapers rather than actually meeting real people. I can witness that I have been as bad as anyone at this in the past and, err, sadly still.

LEAO +

 

[Nine_Two]

A lot of this is because the Communion has turned a blind eye to it. Everyone cites the American Episcopalians, but the Anglicans Churches in Canada and Australia aren’t any better, and I get the feeling British Anglicans aren’t far off.

Having Churches which do these insane things reflects on the Communion as a whole, like it or not, and it affects how people see it.

Being a former Anglican, I know how beautiful the Church can be, sadly that beauty always seems to be secondary to the strife which divides it.

 

[crazzeto]

A lot of this is because the Communion has turned a blind eye to it. Everyone cites the American Episcopalians, but the Anglicans Churches in Canada and Australia aren’t any better, and I get the feeling British Anglicans aren’t far off.

Having Churches which do these insane things reflects on the Communion as a whole, like it or not, and it affects how people see it.

Being a former Anglican, I know how beautiful the Church can be, sadly that beauty always seems to be secondary to the strife which divides it.

I think that’s it for me, the thing is this. It seems to me that Anglicans are pretty proud of their communion, in fact some are so darn proud of it that they claim “we are the true church, the Catholic Church broke away from us!!”. Ignoring of course King Henery VIII et. al.

So now here, the Anglican communion really seems on the whole pretty OK with these Gay Episcopole priests and bishops. So from a Catholic perspective, where we have a true unified authoritative church, I must wonder. Why doesn’t the communion do something to stop this? Or can the communion even do anything about it?

 

[puzzleannie]

Can we stop creatively painting all Anglicans as homosexual accepting dyed in the wool liberals who are rolling out the red carpet to welcome everyone who wants to be a church goer who cannot accept orthodoxy in a real Christian life? . Just stop it!

please cite the post(s) which made these charges and if they are breaking forum rules, click on the red drop and report them to the moderators. I doubt very much if every or even a few posters on this forum have made these allegations consistently.

 

[Justy90]

A lot of this is because the Communion has turned a blind eye to it. Everyone cites the American Episcopalians, but the Anglicans Churches in Canada and Australia aren’t any better, and I get the feeling British Anglicans aren’t far off.

Having Churches which do these insane things reflects on the Communion as a whole, like it or not, and it affects how people see it.

Being a former Anglican, I know how beautiful the Church can be, sadly that beauty always seems to be secondary to the strife which divides it.

This by no means reflects the integrity of the Anglican Communion. It is by far a minority within the Communion that these things can be correctly attributed to. To discredit all of Anglicanism in this fashion is not only grossly unfair but just as inacurate. This is the heart of my objection.

 

[Nine_Two]

This by no means reflects the integrity of the Anglican Communion. It is by far a minority within the Communion that these things can be correctly attributed to. To discredit all of Anglicanism in this fashion is not only grossly unfair but just as inacurate. This is the heart of my objection.

The problem is it isn’t unfair. No other Communion in the world is so diverse because any other communion if you are found doing these things you get booted out. The lack of action is what brings this down on the church.

I notice you say you’re an ACLA Anglican, correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t you officially out of the communion, with only history tieing you into it? Were you right and the communion itself had integrity, you’d be in communion, and the TEC would not be.

 

[ahollars]

Can we stop creatively painting all Anglicans as homosexual accepting dyed in the wool liberals who are rolling out the red carpet to welcome everyone who wants to be a church goer who cannot accept orthodoxy in a real Christian life? These are Episcopalians who are but 1/39th of the Anglican Communion. Get that?? 1/39th!! You know who you are and you know what you are doing. Stop it please. This in essence would be just like someone declaring the Roman Catholic church as the world’s largest closet homosexual club for men for all time. These are needless unecessary labels that are meant to discredit and demean. Just stop it!

The difference between your club and ours is that our leadership doesn’t dare justify it and make something like that official. When light shines on evil, we clean house. Sometimes it’s uncivilized, but hey, everyone lets their guard down in their own house. When was the last time the Catholic Church was accused of swaying with the winds of popular opinion?

 

[rtconstant]

Well first off I’d like to say that some of my favorite posters on this forum are Anglican. Anglican’s seemingly are gifted with many rather bright and well read individuals, and many of our Anglican posters here demonstrate a solid grasp of Christian Tradition.

However, I can also see the point of other posters, that the lack of doctrinally solid leadership has devastated the Anglican Communion. In both practice and and doctrine the Anglican fold swings from high to low, and left to right respectively, and does so in official capacity.

For me personally this is all very concerning because in many ways, I see the Anglican Church almost as the prime Protestant Church. I realize that this is ironic as some Anglicans claim that they are actually the Catholic Church. Still, it seems to me that if it had not been for the Church of England, the Protestant Reformation would have ended up as a relatively minor historical event. The evangelical movements, almost universally sprang from the Church of England. Its missionary zeal, and musical traditions form the basis of what many consider quintessentially Protestant. So when I see these unorthodox events happening in the Anglican fold, I begin to wonder how far behind the rest of the Protestant denominations will be. I mean if the Anglican’s who still have so much of the Apostolic Traditions are starting to slide down the slippery slope, I don’t hold out much hope for the other denominations.

But that is just my view.

 

[RevDrNorth]

I think that’s it for me, the thing is this. It seems to me that Anglicans are pretty proud of their communion, in fact some are so darn proud of it that they claim “we are the true church, the Catholic Church broke away from us!!”. Ignoring of course King Henery VIII et. al.

So now here, the Anglican communion really seems on the whole pretty OK with these Gay Episcopole priests and bishops. So from a Catholic perspective, where we have a true unified authoritative church, I must wonder. Why doesn’t the communion do something to stop this? Or can the communion even do anything about it?

Using the same logic the Roman Catholic Church was pretty “okay” with pedophile priests, gay priests, and gay Bishops. There are incidence after incidence of actively gay priests and Bishops who were known about by the hierarchy and ignored. One even installed his gay and allegedly drug using lover as a priest (AZ?). Big deal if the RCC has a “policy” against it if they turn a blind eye.

I only say the above to note that this is no different than your (and others) attacks on the Episcopal Church. Some Episcopal clergy have done some strange stuff but heck the number of strange things done by Catholic clergy is legion. Just saw a NBC (?) news program on a Vatican monsignor involved in a big international money scheme. Asked a Southern DA (?) if he would like to kiss his ring because the Pope gave it to him or what about the gay priest who was killed by the mail prostitute he picked up. Or the retired RCC Bishop Gumbleton (?) who wore the gay pride rainbow and pink triangle on his mitre during a Church service.

In other words there is plenty of shameful behavior to go around. The RCC is not necessarily a haven from bizarre stuff no matter what official policies they have.

*Note: I have a great deal of respect for Catholics, Catholic worship AND the Holy Father.

 

[Nine_Two]

Using the same logic the Roman Catholic Church was pretty “okay” with pedophile priests, gay priests, and gay Bishops. There are incidence after incidence of actively gay priests and Bishops who were known about by the hierarchy and ignored. One even installed his gay and allegedly drug using lover as a priest (AZ?). Big deal if the RCC has a “policy” against it if they turn a blind eye.

I only say the above to note that this is no different than your (and others) attacks on the Episcopal Church. Some Episcopal clergy have done some strange stuff but heck the number of strange things done by Catholic clergy is legion. Just saw a NBC (?) news program on a Vatican monsignor involved in a big international money scheme. Asked a Southern DA (?) if he would like to kiss his ring because the Pope gave it to him or what about the gay priest who was killed by the mail prostitute he picked up. Or the retired RCC Bishop Gumbleton (?) who wore the gay pride rainbow and pink triangle on his mitre during a Church service.

In other words there is plenty of shameful behavior to go around. The RCC is not necessarily a haven from bizarre stuff no matter what official policies they have.

*Note: I have a great deal of respect for Catholics, Catholic worship AND the Holy Father.

Do you have evidence that the RCC turned a blind eye? Is that gay priest who was installed by his gay lover Bishop still surving? Is the Bishop still surving?

As for the monsignor you mentioned, unless you can prove he did his scam with the knowledge of the Vatican, then it’s just a strawman, and has no relevence to anything here.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Do you have evidence that the RCC turned a blind eye?

You are joking right? There have been books, news documentaries and so on.

The point is that to point fingers at another denomination and make fun of their issues (being quite derogatory in some cases) when for every finger several are pointed at you is not wise.

PS The Orthodox Church is also not immune from scandal. It would take a few mintues but I seem to recall an EO (Greek) Bishop invovled in running some male brothel.

No church is pure or faultless. My point is that painting Anglicans with a broad brush is disingenuous when anyone could as easily do the same thing with the RCC or EO based on documented issues and scandals. In other words…C-H-A-R-I-T-Y. In many cases the Holy Father and those who wrote the Anglican Constitution have been far more charitable than some followers here who would make even the most ardent Anglo Catholic feel unwelcome. Don’t forget to be Christlike

 

[Nine_Two]

Sigh.

A Scandal and the Church turning a blind eye are two very different things. No one is going to deny that people Sin. And yes there are all sorts of lovely documentaries and other worthless things about those events. That’s not what I asked. I didn’t ask for proof of the scadal, I asked for proof that the Church turned a blind eye.

And thanks for the “And the Orthodox do it too!”, that’s great but perfectly meaningless. Unless you once again have proof that a blind eye is being turned to these scandals, then I’d ask you to quite your libelous posting.

 

[RevDrNorth]

First, I did not say the Orthodox “turned a blind eye to the scandal” just that it existed.
Sex and corruption scandals have shaken the foundations of the Greek Orthodox Church.
nctimes.com/special_reports/religion/article_96308b7e-6b66-5b35-9517-b93311dd1ab3.html

There is too much to search for but here is a beginning. For the Bishop in AZ(?) you can read the book Sacrilege linked below. I think that one Benedict cleaned up (if I recall correctly).

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8379584.stm

amazon.com/Sacrilege-Sexual-Abuse-Catholic-Church/dp/0979027993

Sacrilege explores the deep roots of the Catholic ChurchÕs sexual-abuse scandal, revealing its full depth and breadth. In horrifying yet necessary detail, former federal investigator Leon Podles surveys the full extent of the damage, showing how victims were failed by bishops, laity, therapists, police, courts, press, and even popes. Examining the history behind todayÕs headlines, Dr. Podles reveals how centuries-old theological errors encouraged blind submission to hierarchy, by making obedience to authority the highest virtue. He also shines a light on the new theological errors, popularized since Vatican II, that glorify every type of sexual expression–including pedophilia. Sacrilege will prove an essential resource for all those concerned with the history and future of Catholicism.

jonathanturley.org/2009/11/09/canadian-judge-finds-catholic-bishop-thwarted-investigation-of-abusive-priest/

nyclergyabuse.com/documents/Rockville_Centre/Brian%20McKeon-7.pdf

bishop-accountability.org/

I don’t intend to get into any more debate on it. It was merely to point out that the unkind and sweeping remarks made about other denominations and done with a holier than thou attitude was not really a good idea when your own church is vulnerbale to many of the same or similar criticisms.

You asked for links so I gave what I could quickly find. I am now withdrawing from this thread since it is taking a nasty tone.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Justy is correct that not all Anglicans embrace the gay lifestyle and homosexual “marriage” and it is indeed inaccurate to paint the entire communion as pro-gay. I agree with his feeling there. But what bothers me greatly is the fact that it’s open to debate at all in the Communion, in any part of the communion! You’d never have this topic even debated in the Catholic Church any more than you’d have women’s ordination being mulled by Benedict XVI and the cardinals in his court. Yet it is accepted in Anglicanism by and large. It is unfair to paint all Anglicans as pro-women’s ordination and YET many provinces permit it. Divorce and remarriage, Calvinism, evangelicalism like JI Packer and John Stott permeate and sully Anglican claims toward being catholic and the diversity of Anglicanism is truly what is eating at it like a cancer. The fact that there is no authority, no excommunication, no agreement on much of anything, all points to a type of spiritual cancer. Homosexuality and women’s ordination are like Sauron and the Great Eye spreading its dominion over Christianity all over the earth. It’s the secular hip, open-minded, “loving,” “tolerant” thing to do and the easy thing to do. People are selling out to what is easy and, in their eyes, unavoidable. It’s only a matter of time until all Anglicanism embraces women’s ordination…those who resist will be marginalized and insignificant…or converts to the Catholic Church. The secular tide of these issues about sexuality and relationships, divorce/remarriage, abortion, etc. are all sell-out issues and so many are just giving in…The Catholic Church is the only armor to wear in these days of spiritual warfare IMO…I hope many Anglicans will take up the Pope on his generous open-door policy to Anglians and Anglican clergy. God bless those who are willing to leave behind the pensions, perks, and salaries to follow Christ to the Catholic Church. I know some who are doing it and they’re living in financial peril right now but it’s worth it to them! God bless them!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sigh.

A Scandal and the Church turning a blind eye are two very different things. No one is going to deny that people Sin. And yes there are all sorts of lovely documentaries and other worthless things about those events. That’s not what I asked. I didn’t ask for proof of the scadal, I asked for proof that the Church turned a blind eye.

And thanks for the “And the Orthodox do it too!”, that’s great but perfectly meaningless. Unless you once again have proof that a blind eye is being turned to these scandals, then I’d ask you to quite your libelous posting.

Agreed. And a scandal in the Church (Orthodox or Roman Catholic) is quite different from an ecclesiastical acceptance of a known sinful lifestyle and the actual sanctioning and even encouraging behavior we see in the Episcopal Church, etc. All churches have individual miscreants and scum that do these horrific deeds. But where does the catechism or canons of the church or theology say that gay marriage, abortion, divorce, etc. are santioned and acceptable? I fail to understand the individual misdeeds = just as bad as Episcopal Church open acceptance of said sin? Odd argument.