Can we try this again?

[Aramis]

Baptism is the first Sacrament of Initiation, so they are already partially initiated as soon as they express the intention of becoming Catholic, even before the Rite of Welcome (although it is not recommended that they start going to Confession that early in their journey). Our discussion is about baptized Inquirers only; obviously, the non-baptized can’t go to Confession before being baptized.

You should note that even after full initiation, the Sacrament of Reconciliation still remains at the same level of “recommended.” You can never force anyone or require anyone to go to Confession - ever. Even in the Precepts of the Church, it is only “strongly recommended” that we attend at least once a year - it cannot ever be “required.”

Sorry, but wrong.

From the CIC:
CHAPTER III.

THE PENITENT

Can. 987 To receive the salvific remedy of the sacrament of penance, a member of the Christian faithful must be disposed in such a way that, rejecting sins committed and having a purpose of amendment, the person is turned back to God.

Can. 988 §1. A member of the Christian faithful is obliged to confess in kind and number all grave sins committed after baptism and not yet remitted directly through the keys of the Church nor acknowledged in individual confession, of which the person has knowledge after diligent examination of conscience.

§2. It is recommended to the Christian faithful that they also confess venial sins.

Can. 989 After having reached the age of discretion, each member of the faithful is obliged to confess faithfully his or her grave sins at least once a year.

Can. 990 No one is prohibited from confessing through an interpreter as long as abuses and scandals are avoided and without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 983, §2.

Can. 991 Every member of the Christian faithful is free to confess sins to a legitimately approved confessor of his or her choice, even to one of another rite.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3H.HTM ephasis mine.

is Obliged = has an obligation

an unfulfilled obligation is itself a sin.

 

[jmcrae]

Sorry, but wrong.

From the CIC:
CHAPTER III.

THE PENITENT

Can. 987 To receive the salvific remedy of the sacrament of penance, a member of the Christian faithful must be disposed in such a way that, rejecting sins committed and having a purpose of amendment, the person is turned back to God.

Can. 988 §1. A member of the Christian faithful is obliged to confess in kind and number all grave sins committed after baptism and not yet remitted directly through the keys of the Church nor acknowledged in individual confession, of which the person has knowledge after diligent examination of conscience.

§2. It is recommended to the Christian faithful that they also confess venial sins.

Can. 989 After having reached the age of discretion, each member of the faithful is obliged to confess faithfully his or her grave sins at least once a year.

Can. 990 No one is prohibited from confessing through an interpreter as long as abuses and scandals are avoided and without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 983, §2.

Can. 991 Every member of the Christian faithful is free to confess sins to a legitimately approved confessor of his or her choice, even to one of another rite.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3H.HTM ephasis mine.

is Obliged = has an obligation

an unfulfilled obligation is itself a sin.

This is all on the penitent’s own initiative, though. It is the penitent himself who discerns that he needs to go to Confession - no one outside of himself can command him to go - they can do nothing more than provide the opportunity, and strongly recommend it.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

This is all on the penitent’s own initiative, though. It is the penitent himself who discerns that he needs to go to Confession - no one outside of himself can command him to go - they can do nothing more than provide the opportunity, and strongly recommend it.

That’s not what the canon law says. It says the faithful are required to go once a year. You could just as well say “commanded”.

 

[steve_b]

Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.

Have you never seen the following passages from scripture?

Rom 16:
17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those** who cause divisions** and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

Division, i.e. not staying in the Church is evil…correct? What are the consequences

Gal 5:
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God

Sounds final…correct?

Isn’t this what the Church is saying? Who taught this to the Church? St Paul.

 

[Aramis]

This is all on the penitent’s own initiative, though. It is the penitent himself who discerns that he needs to go to Confession - no one outside of himself can command him to go - they can do nothing more than provide the opportunity, and strongly recommend it.

No, it is not. The Easter Duty is, in several Byzantine Churches, not to commune, but to confess. And if you want to be communed in many Byzantine parishes outside the US, one MUST attend confession within the week prior; it’s required, and one will not be communed if one has not been shriven; given the typically small and solitary parishes, a pastor can and will know.

 

[jmcrae]

That’s not what the canon law says. It says the faithful are required to go once a year. You could just as well say “commanded”.

We’ve had this discussion many times before on this Forum, and the conclusion has always been that it is up to the penitent to go once a year, and he can choose not to go if he discerns that he has no mortal sins to confess. There is no ecclesiastical penalty for not going.

 

[James224]

Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.

The church is warning those who leave and, therefore, reject the church knowing the church is the church Jesus Christ started. It is not saying that a person who leaves will definitely go to hell. Why? Because we cannot judge a person’s heart. This same person may come back later in life and repent. That’s one possibility. Another possibility is that a person who leaves may never have understood the church through no fault of their own. Maybe they weren’t taught correctly. A person who leaves has the responsibility to try everything in their power to understand and practice the faith.

As far as not repenting in an acceptable manner, the Church merely passes on what the gospel says, that is, you must repent.

 

[steve_b]

We’ve had this discussion many times before on this Forum, and the conclusion has always been that it is up to the penitent to go once a year, and he can choose not to go if he discerns that he has no mortal sins to confess. There is no ecclesiastical penalty for not going.

Missing mass on purpose IS a mortal sin. Therefore, even to go once a year requires confession before receiving communion to confess missing mass all year long. And if one expects forgiveness while confessing this sin, they can’t intend to continue to miss mass in the future, i.e. continue their usual missing mass all year long…

**2042 **The first precept (“You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”) requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the Mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.
The second precept (“You shall confess your sins at least once a year”) ensures preparation for the Eucharist by the reception of the sacrament of reconciliation, which continues Baptism’s work of conversion and forgiveness.
The third precept (“You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season”) guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord’s Body and Blood in connection with the Paschal feasts, the origin and center of the Christian liturgy.

and
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0311fr.asp

 

[jmcrae]

Missing mass on purpose IS a mortal sin. Therefore, even to go once a year requires confession before receiving communion to confess missing mass all year long. And if one expects forgiveness while confessing this sin, they can’t intend to continue to miss mass in the future, i.e. continue their usual missing mass all year long…

I didn’t realize we were talking about a specific case.

Who is missing Mass all year long?

I was talking about Catholics who do everything they are supposed to do - they have gone to Mass every Sunday, they have given alms to the poor, they have supported their parish with time, treasure and talent, and they have performed their duties to their families and to their employers to the best of their abilities, they have been married according to the law of the Church, and they have not broken any of the Commandments in any serious way - if, when they go to make an examination of conscience, they can’t find anything to confess, it was discerned previously in this Forum on at least two separate occasions that this person would not be “required” to go to Confession - not even once a year - if he had nothing to confess.

Confession is for the remission of serious post-baptismal sin. Someone who has no serious sins does not have to go to Confession.

However, it is highly recommended that those who are going to be receiving Confirmation and/or First Holy Communion should go to Confession beforehand to ensure that they are in a state of grace to receive these Sacraments - including adults who are completing RCIA for Persons Previously Baptised.

 

[clmowry]

No, precepts of the Catholic Church would not “of course” apply to non-Catholics. Precepts of the Catholic Church apply to Catholics.

Again, where in the Rite of the Church are non-Catholics required to go to confession prior to initiation into the Catholic Church?

I mean, if this really is a requirement, where does the Church state such? Thanks.

If you are following the process for joining the Catholic Church then you will be following the precepts of the Catholic Church or you will not be joining the Catholic Church. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

On the other subject, no one is ever “required” to go to confession. i.e. If you are unaware of having committed a sin you have no need to go to confession.

In the unlikely event that a previously baptized non-Catholic adult in the RCIA program managed to get to that point in their life without having committed a mortal sin then they would not need to go to confession.

Otherwise:

“In this case we are dealing with Christians validly baptized but who have not yet made their solemn entrance into the Catholic Church nor received the sacraments of confirmation and Eucharist.

This case is already foreseen in the appendix to the Introduction to the Rite for the Christian Initiation of Adults.

Norm No. 9 stipulates that if the candidate is to admitted to the Catholic Church during Mass (the usual practice), then beforehand, the candidate, having considered his personal condition, confesses his past sins after having informed the priest of his proximate admission. “

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur104.htm

I haven’t found the actual document online yet. So far this is the closest thing I’ve found.

Chuck

 

[steve_b]

I didn’t realize we were talking about a specific case.

Who is missing Mass all year long?
I was talking about Catholics who do everything they are supposed to do - they have gone to Mass every Sunday, they have given alms to the poor, they have supported their parish with time, treasure and talent, and they have performed their duties to their families and to their employers to the best of their abilities, they have been married according to the law of the Church, and they have not broken any of the Commandments in any serious way - if, when they go to make an examination of conscience, they can’t find anything to confess, it was discerned previously in this Forum on at least two separate occasions that this person would not be “required” to go to Confession - not even once a year - if he had nothing to confess.

Confession is for the remission of serious post-baptismal sin. Someone who has no serious sins does not have to go to Confession.

However, it is highly recommended that those who are going to be receiving Confirmation and/or First Holy Communion should go to Confession beforehand to ensure that they are in a state of grace to receive these Sacraments - including adults who are completing RCIA for Persons Previously Baptised.

My bad. I misinterpreted what was being said. I was thinking of C & E Catholics

 

[diggerdomer]

Baptism is the first Sacrament of Initiation, so they are already partially initiated as soon as they express the intention of becoming Catholic, even before the Rite of Welcome (although it is not recommended that they start going to Confession that early in their journey). Our discussion is about baptized Inquirers only; obviously, the non-baptized can’t go to Confession before being baptized.

You should note that even after full initiation, the Sacrament of Reconciliation still remains at the same level of “recommended.” You can never force anyone or require anyone to go to Confession - ever. Even in the Precepts of the Church, it is only “strongly recommended” that we attend at least once a year - it cannot ever be “required.”

“Inquirers” are just that…they are not baptized. According to the RCIA, there is no such thing as a “baptized inquirer.” I might be wrong, of course…if you know of something different in the Rite of the Church please share.

Non-Catholic Christians who desire to join the full communion of the Catholic Church are not inquirers, they are candidates.

Those who are not baptized but express the desire to become Catholic are first accepted into the order of the Catechumenate. They then become catechumens. Still not baptized, but yes more closely related to the Church (and beneficiaries of certain rights within the Church).

Catechumens become such via the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of the Catechumenate. Not a Rite of Welcome. There is a significant difference.

For Catholics, the sacrament of Reconciliation is in fact required by the Church for those in a state of mortal sin prior to their receiving communion. I don’t look at that precept as “forcing” anyone, but it is a requirement.

 

[diggerdomer]

If you are following the process for joining the Catholic Church then you will be following the precepts of the Catholic Church or you will not be joining the Catholic Church. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

The process for joining the Catholic Church is the RCIA.

Where does the RCIA require following the precepts of the Catholic Church prior to initiation?

It’s not difficult to grasp, just read the Rite (RCIA).

I haven’t found the actual document online yet. So far this is the closest thing I’ve found.

The RCIA is not available online (unfortunately, imho). I’m sure your parish has a copy you could refer to.

 

[clmowry]

The process for joining the Catholic Church is the RCIA.

Where does the RCIA require following the precepts of the Catholic Church prior to initiation?

It’s not difficult to grasp, just read the Rite (RCIA).

The RCIA is not available online (unfortunately, imho). I’m sure your parish has a copy you could refer to.

Ok I give. You must be right.

You can join the Catholic Church by doing any old thing you please.

There is nothing that the Catholic Church requires one to do in the RCIA program, otherwise they would be forcing you to follow the precepts of the Church.

:banghead:

 

[Aramis]

The process for joining the Catholic Church is the RCIA.

Wrong. RCIA is the process for non-Catholics joining the Roman Church. Each of the Eastern Churches Sui Iuris has a similar process, but do not use the same rubrics.

 

[rinnie]

Recommended. Exactly. Thanks for confirming my thought.

Also, the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist) are just that… initiation. The sacrament of Reconciliation applies after one is initiated.

Diggerdomer, here is how it is done. First Baptism. Then confession, Please do not get me wrong it is not recommended it is a must. It thats what you mean. You must go to confesion before receiving your first Communion.

 

[rinnie]

The process for joining the Catholic Church is the RCIA.

Where does the RCIA require following the precepts of the Catholic Church prior to initiation?

It’s not difficult to grasp, just read the Rite (RCIA).

The RCIA is not available online (unfortunately, imho). I’m sure your parish has a copy you could refer to.

Digger, I am not sure what you are asking. If you are asking to join the RCC and become a Catholic RCIA is needed.

If you are asking to just join the Church without RCIA. I guess you could become a member, but would not be able to participate in the Sacramemts.

If you are asking if going to RCIA makes you a lets say OFFICIAL MEMBER the answer is NO. You can take the RCIA classes and at the end of them if the RCC is not for you, you are not obligated to join. ( IS that what you are asking )

What RCIA is a course that shows you what we are. What are faith is, what we believe, and what you must do if you want to be a Catholic.

Its like 12 years of Sunday School all wrapped up in 6 months. What it took me 8 years to do, you could do in 6 months and complete the Sacraments.

If at the end you choose to become a member you are not officially a Member to participate in the Sacraments until the Sunday you are Confirmed, and possibly Baptised and given the Eucharist on that Sunday. But you must go to confession prior to that day.

 

[rinnie]

“Inquirers” are just that…they are not baptized. According to the RCIA, there is no such thing as a “baptized inquirer.” I might be wrong, of course…if you know of something different in the Rite of the Church please share.

Non-Catholic Christians who desire to join the full communion of the Catholic Church are not inquirers, they are candidates.

Those who are not baptized but express the desire to become Catholic are first accepted into the order of the Catechumenate. They then become catechumens. Still not baptized, but yes more closely related to the Church (and beneficiaries of certain rights within the Church).

Catechumens become such via the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of the Catechumenate. Not a Rite of Welcome. There is a significant difference.

For Catholics, the sacrament of Reconciliation is in fact required by the Church for those in a state of mortal sin prior to their receiving communion. I don’t look at that precept as “forcing” anyone, but it is a requirement.

Baptism in the CC is the same as pretty much any other Church. As long as you are Baptised in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit no matter what faith it is recognized by the CC. IF thats what you are asking.

But even though your Baptism is recongnized by the RCC does not make you Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

The process for joining the Catholic Church is the RCIA.

The RCIA consists of four Periods, divided by three Steps.

Where does the RCIA require following the precepts of the Catholic Church prior to initiation?

The RCIA is a process of initiation. Initiation occurs in a set of four Periods.

For persons previously baptized, the four Periods are: The Period of Inquiry, which is concluded with the Rite of Welcome. Upon receiving the Rite of Welcome, the baptized person in RCIA becomes permitted to be buried from a Catholic Church in the event of his or her death. The Rite of Welcome is followed by the Period of Catechesis. The Period of Catechesis concludes with the Rite of Calling to Continuing Conversion. Upon receiving the Rite of Calling to Continuing Conversion, the baptized candidate is permitted to go to Confession after being appropriately instructed and prepared. The Bishop also gives his priest the faculties to give him the Sacraments of Confirmation and First Holy Communion, again after the appropriate instruction and preparation. These instructions and preparations take place during the Period of Enlightenment, which is concluded with the reception of the Sacraments of Reconciliation, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion, together with an affirmation of faith. This is followed by the Period of Mystagogia, which is concluded at Pentecost.

The RCIA is not available online (unfortunately, imho). I’m sure your parish has a copy you could refer to.

Be sure to take note of all of the sections that pertain to those who have previously been baptized.

 

[Julia1996]

Ok I give. You must be right.

You can join the Catholic Church by doing any old thing you please.

There is nothing that the Catholic Church requires one to do in the RCIA program, otherwise they would be forcing you to follow the precepts of the Church.

:banghead:

To a certain extent, that is the case. But if you are joining the Church, I would assume that you agree with the teachings etc. Which means that you would have no objection to following the precepts.

The reason why there isn’t all that much that is “required” is because they don’t want to have potential converts scared off by the number of rules and formalities, without truly understanding what is going on.