Can we try this again?

[clmowry]

To a certain extent, that is the case. But if you are joining the Church, I would assume that you agree with the teachings etc. Which means that you would have no objection to following the precepts.

The reason why there isn’t all that much that is “required” is because they don’t want to have potential converts scared off by the number of rules and formalities, without truly understanding what is going on.

Agreed.

At first the only “requirement” is that if you are interested, you can show up.

No one in the RCIA program is under any obligation to submit to the teachings of the Catholic Church [until they actually become Catholic.]

I would submit, however, that the list of “requirements” grows as you near the completion of the process, culminating in the “requirement” to make a profession of faith and participate in certain sacraments.

These things are not optional if you actually want to join the Church, which was the only point I was trying to make, apparently completely ineffectively, in my previous posts on this thread.

There are “requirements” for “joining” any organization.

If you don’t fulfill those requirements, whatever they might be, then you don’t join that particular organization.

I really like the RCIA process in that it pretty much assures that the person entering the Church is well catechized and is fully aware of what they are doing.

On the other side of the coin, I think it is almost the complete opposite of the typical non-Catholic conversion experience, which could be a little uncomfortable.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

We’ve had this discussion many times before on this Forum, and the conclusion has always been that it is up to the penitent to go once a year, and he can choose not to go if he discerns that he has no mortal sins to confess. There is no ecclesiastical penalty for not going.

I wanna be that guy when I grow up. That is I pray I have the “problem” of discerning no serious sins for a whole year. If I do, I think I’ll go to confession anyway [just to be sure .]

Chuck

 

[jmcrae]

I wanna be that guy when I grow up. That is I pray I have the “problem” of discerning no serious sins for a whole year. If I do, I think I’ll go to confession anyway [just to be sure .]

Chuck

With me, the more often I go to Confession, the more sins I discern, and the more often I need to go.

It’s kind of like when you finally get around to dusting your knick-knacks, and then when your knick-knacks are clean and bright, you realize that you need to repaint the walls, because they are so dingy in comparison to your nice clean knick-knacks - and then when the walls are done, you realize that the furniture needs to be shampooed, and then the carpets, and before you know it, the whole house needs re-doing.

 

[diggerdomer]

Ok I give. You must be right.

You can join the Catholic Church by doing any old thing you please.

There is nothing that the Catholic Church requires one to do in the RCIA program, otherwise they would be forcing you to follow the precepts of the Church.

:banghead:

No, one cannot join the Catholic Church by doing anything one pleases.

RCIA is not a program, yet of course there are requirements, including the expectation that anyone seeking initiation is willing to follow the precepts of the Catholic Church, along with of course all Catholic Church teaching.

 

[diggerdomer]

Wrong. RCIA is the process for non-Catholics joining the Roman Church. Each of the Eastern Churches Sui Iuris has a similar process, but do not use the same rubrics.

You’re right,I was not as specific as I should have been. The RCIA is of course the process for the Roman Catholic Church, not all Catholic Churches. Sorry for the imprecision, I was simply referring to the gist of this thread as I understood it, which seemed to refer to the Roman Rite by those who initially raised the topic of RCIA. Thanks.

 

[diggerdomer]

Diggerdomer, here is how it is done. First Baptism. Then confession, Please do not get me wrong it is not recommended it is a must. It thats what you mean. You must go to confesion before receiving your first Communion.

Again, please show me in the RCIA where what you claim is required by the Church?

Thank you.

 

[diggerdomer]

Digger, I am not sure what you are asking. If you are asking to join the RCC and become a Catholic RCIA is needed.

If you are asking to just join the Church without RCIA. I guess you could become a member, but would not be able to participate in the Sacramemts.

If you are asking if going to RCIA makes you a lets say OFFICIAL MEMBER the answer is NO. You can take the RCIA classes and at the end of them if the RCC is not for you, you are not obligated to join. ( IS that what you are asking )

What RCIA is a course that shows you what we are. What are faith is, what we believe, and what you must do if you want to be a Catholic.

Its like 12 years of Sunday School all wrapped up in 6 months. What it took me 8 years to do, you could do in 6 months and complete the Sacraments.

If at the end you choose to become a member you are not officially a Member to participate in the Sacraments until the Sunday you are Confirmed, and possibly Baptised and given the Eucharist on that Sunday. But you must go to confession prior to that day.

RCIA is not a “course”. It is a Rite of the Church. The RCIA prescribes the process by which a non-Catholic adult becomes Catholic. The process of course includes catechesis (instruction) but is not limited to that.

Again, where is the requirement in the Church’s Rite (RCIA) that says the sacrament of Reconciliation is absolutely required prior to Initiation? Thanks.

 

[diggerdomer]

Baptism in the CC is the same as pretty much any other Church. As long as you are Baptised in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit no matter what faith it is recognized by the CC. IF thats what you are asking.

But even though your Baptism is recongnized by the RCC does not make you Catholic.

Well of course Baptism in any Church does not make one Catholic. I never suggested otherwise (nor did anyone else on this thread?).

Yes, Christian baptism is “pretty much” the same in Christian Churches, which is why the Catholic Church recognizes non-Catholic Christian baptisms. But not all so-called baptisms the some may celebrate are recognized as Christian baptism by the Catholic Church.

 

[diggerdomer]

The RCIA consists of four Periods, divided by three Steps.

The RCIA is a process of initiation. Initiation occurs in a set of four Periods.

For persons previously baptized, the four Periods are: The Period of Inquiry, which is concluded with the Rite of Welcome. Upon receiving the Rite of Welcome, the baptized person in RCIA becomes permitted to be buried from a Catholic Church in the event of his or her death. The Rite of Welcome is followed by the Period of Catechesis. The Period of Catechesis concludes with the Rite of Calling to Continuing Conversion. Upon receiving the Rite of Calling to Continuing Conversion, the baptized candidate is permitted to go to Confession after being appropriately instructed and prepared. The Bishop also gives his priest the faculties to give him the Sacraments of Confirmation and First Holy Communion, again after the appropriate instruction and preparation. These instructions and preparations take place during the Period of Enlightenment, which is concluded with the reception of the Sacraments of Reconciliation, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion, together with an affirmation of faith. This is followed by the Period of Mystagogia, which is concluded at Pentecost.

Be sure to take note of all of the sections that pertain to those who have previously been baptized.

Yes, of course.

 

[rinnie]

Again, please show me in the RCIA where what you claim is required by the Church?

Thank you.

Because you have to have it to be confirmed.

digger I am still not sure what you are asking.

In RCIA the first step is Catechumenate. It varies on how much you have learned and how ready you are to take the next step. (usually about a year)

The second step is Rite of Election. Your name is written and you again express your intention. (usually the the First Sunday of lent).

Then the 3rd 4th or 5th Sunday of lent (Scrutinies) You have confession, etc.

Because on the day you are confirmed you have to be in a state of Grace. You should participate in the Sacrament of Confession Before Confirmation.

Is this what you are asking?

Personally I have never been through the process. As a child we went through the stages in school. But my husband had his confession the last (lesson I will call it) before he was confirmed. I believe it was the week before. I can’t remember. I will ask him, and see if he remembers. If this is what you are asking?

But I know for a fact you cannot be Confirmed without Confession.

 

[rinnie]

RCIA is not a “course”. It is a Rite of the Church. The RCIA prescribes the process by which a non-Catholic adult becomes Catholic. The process of course includes catechesis (instruction) but is not limited to that.

Again, where is the requirement in the Church’s Rite (RCIA) that says the sacrament of Reconciliation is absolutely required prior to Initiation? Thanks.

Is this what you want?

CCC 1310 To receive Confirmation one must be in a state of grace. One should receive the sacrament of Penance in order to be cleansed for the gift of the Holy Spirit. More intense prayer should prepare one to receive the strength and graces of the Holy Spirit with docility and readiness to act.

1319 The candidate for Confirmation who has attained the age of reason must profess the faith, be in a STATE OF GRACE have the intention of receiving the sacrament and be prepared to assume the role of isciple and witness to Christ, both within the ecclesial community and in temporal affairs.

(now you cannot be in a state of grace if you are in the state of sin. So you must have confession before you can become free from that state of sin.)

 

[jmcrae]

Again, please show me in the RCIA where what you claim is required by the Church?

Thank you.

Again, it is in the section titled The Sacrament of Penance, which in the Canadian Rite, is paragraphs 528-530, on page 303.

It is of the same level of strong recommendation as the precept to go to Confession at least once a year.

That is to say, if the person discerns that he has committed no serious sins since the time of his valid baptism, then he doesn’t have to go, but he has to go if he has anything to confess, so as to be in a state of grace when he approaches to receive the Sacraments of Confirmation and First Holy Communion.

 

[Aramis]

Again, it is in the section titled The Sacrament of Penance, which in the Canadian Rite, is paragraphs 528-530, on page 303.

It is of the same level of strong recommendation as the precept to go to Confession at least once a year.

Actually, the canon requires confession once a year.

Can. 989 After having reached the age of discretion, each member of the faithful is obliged to confess faithfully his or her grave sins at least once a year.

Further, failure to go to confession prior is grounds for the pastor to withhold permission for confirmation.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, the canon requires confession once a year.

Can. 989 After having reached the age of discretion, each member of the faithful is obliged to confess faithfully his or her grave sins at least once a year.

Right. And as we keep going over, if the person has no grave sins to confess, this precept does not apply.

Further, failure to go to confession prior is grounds for the pastor to withhold permission for confirmation.

While technically true, the pastor would not have any way of knowing whether the candidates had gone to Confession, unless they freely mentioned it to him. Under the present rules in our Diocese, it is not permitted to ask someone whether they have been to Confession - I have no idea about other Dioceses, though.

 

[Aramis]

Right. And as we keep going over, if the person has no grave sins to confess, this precept does not apply.

While technically true, the pastor would not have any way of knowing whether the candidates had gone to Confession, unless they freely mentioned it to him. Under the present rules in our Diocese, it is not permitted to ask someone whether they have been to Confession - I have no idea about other Dioceses, though.

Having seen several individuals denied in the Archdiocese of Anchorage, it does vary.

Archbishop Hurley still required (until his retirement, at least) non-catholic spouses to promise the children would be raised catholic, except with the non-catholic parent was Orthodox. He also stated the Easter Duty for Catholics in Alaska as “To confess one’s sins and then receive communion”… no mention of mortal or otherwise.

Perhaps he simply was braver and more traditional than others…

 

[diggerdomer]

Then the 3rd 4th or 5th Sunday of lent (Scrutinies) You have confession, etc.

Where is confession during the Scrutinies in the RCIA? Yes, the Scrutinies are, of course, part of RCIA…but where is confession required (and during the Scrutinies??). Thanks.

Because on the day you are confirmed you have to be in a state of Grace. You should participate in the Sacrament of Confession Before Confirmation.

Where does the RCIA require (if it’s even possible) that on the day one is confirmed one is in a “state of Grace”? Is that anywhere in the text of the RCIA?

Of course it’s likely GOOD and encouraged to celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation before Confirmation…but where in the RCIA is this required?

But I know for a fact you cannot be Confirmed without Confession.

This is not a fact according to Catholic teaching.

 

[diggerdomer]

Is this what you want?

CCC 1310 To receive Confirmation one must be in a state of grace. One should receive the sacrament of Penance in order to be cleansed for the gift of the Holy Spirit. More intense prayer should prepare one to receive the strength and graces of the Holy Spirit with docility and readiness to act.

1319 The candidate for Confirmation who has attained the age of reason must profess the faith, be in a STATE OF GRACE have the intention of receiving the sacrament and be prepared to assume the role of isciple and witness to Christ, both within the ecclesial community and in temporal affairs.

(now you cannot be in a state of grace if you are in the state of sin. So you must have confession before you can become free from that state of sin.)

I was asking about RCIA, not the CCC. And still, “should” is not the same as “must”. “Should” is a desire, a strong recommendation, a norm, an ideal…but not an absolute requirement. I was responding to those who posted on this thread that Penance was required (absolutely) prior to Initiation.

And let’s not go to “you cannot be in a state of grace if you are in the state of sin” – meaning, people could take such a thought to an extreme and conclude that on our way to communion during Mass we should first go to Confession. Right? Who knows what sinful thoughts may strike us during those few moments…and God forbid we should receive communion while we’re not in a state of grace. LOL

 

[diggerdomer]

Again, it is in the section titled The Sacrament of Penance, which in the Canadian Rite, is paragraphs 528-530, on page 303.

The Canadian Rite you cite notes that penance was regarded by the early Church as a “second baptism.”

Exactly my point. Not something required BEFORE initiation. Obviously, if it was considered as a “second baptism” then it was something that only happened AFTER baptism (initiation).

It also notes Candidates are “encouraged, according to their individual consciences, to make a confession of sins before being received into full communion or completing their initiation.”

Again…exactly my point. Encouraged. Not an absolute requirement.

529: the sacrament of penance MAY (my caps) be celebrated…“may” means it’s optional. Not required.

Thanks for the reference. I’m in the U.S., so not familiar with the Canadian Church, but it’s affirming to see their RCIA is coherent with that in the U.S. No surprise, of course, as the RCIA is for the universal Roman Catholic Church.

I

 

[jmcrae]

Where is confession during the Scrutinies in the RCIA? Yes, the Scrutinies are, of course, part of RCIA…but where is confession required (and during the Scrutinies??). Thanks.

You’re in the wrong part of the book - you’re reading the section that is for the unbaptized.

The baptized don’t go for the Scrutinies. They go to Confession.

Where does the RCIA require (if it’s even possible) that on the day one is confirmed one is in a “state of Grace”? Is that anywhere in the text of the RCIA?

YES, please read the section on “The Sacrament of Penance” (look in the index) - in the Canadian Rite, it’s paragraphs 528-530. I typed them out and quoted them earlier in this thread.

Again, we are not talking about people who have not yet been baptized - we are talking about people who were validly baptized in a different Christian tradition, who are now becoming Catholics.

 

[jmcrae]

The Canadian Rite you cite notes that penance was regarded by the early Church as a “second baptism.”

Exactly my point. Not something required BEFORE initiation. Obviously, if it was considered as a “second baptism” then it was something that only happened AFTER baptism (initiation).

The people going to Confession have already been baptized. If they have grave sins on their consciences, they must go to Confession before receiving any other Sacraments.

It also notes Candidates are “encouraged, according to their individual consciences, to make a confession of sins before being received into full communion or completing their initiation.”

Again…exactly my point. Encouraged. Not an absolute requirement.

Right, because there may be some of them who never committed any sin from the time they were baptized until the time that they are received into the Church (for example, in the case of someone who was baptized as an adult in an Evangelical church).

529: the sacrament of penance MAY (my caps) be celebrated…“may” means it’s optional. Not required.

It’s not required to be celebrated in exactly that way. It still needs to be offered to the candidates in some form, even if they are simply invited to join the line-up on Saturday afternoon. (I consider this a bad idea for First Reconciliation, but it would be one of many possible options.)