Can we try this again?

[rinnie]

I was asking about RCIA, not the CCC. And still, “should” is not the same as “must”. “Should” is a desire, a strong recommendation, a norm, an ideal…but not an absolute requirement. I was responding to those who posted on this thread that Penance was required (absolutely) prior to Initiation.

And let’s not go to “you cannot be in a state of grace if you are in the state of sin” – meaning, people could take such a thought to an extreme and conclude that on our way to communion during Mass we should first go to Confession. Right? Who knows what sinful thoughts may strike us during those few moments…and God forbid we should receive communion while we’re not in a state of grace. LOL

No there is no LOL here buddy. If you take communion and you are not in a state of Grace that means you are in mortal sin, and you CANNOT take communion. Case Closed there. If you go up while you know you are in a state of mortal sin and take communion you have condemned yourself before God.

And if you are in mortal sin it is not a norm it is a Absolute Requirement not buts about it. That is what the RCC teaches. And not venial sin is not mortal sin, You can have venial sin and not have to go to confession. If you pay attention you do a outward or public confession which is good for venial sin every sunday right before communion if you pay attention, which would put you in a state of grace if you have venial sin. Here it is. Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed. I never remember in my whole life not saying that. We also confess our sin every Sunday. Remember I confess to Almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters…

Mortal sin means you are in a state if sin and you cannot get communion period. Until you have absolution from the Priest. You need to study venial and mortal sin a little better. I will help you understand a little better.

 

[rinnie]

Go to the CCC 1855,56,57, and 58. It will show you the difference.

 

[diggerdomer]

You’re in the wrong part of the book - you’re reading the section that is for the unbaptized.

The baptized don’t go for the Scrutinies. They go to Confession.

Again, please share where in the Rite (RCIA) the baptized are REQUIRED to go to confession? Paragraph number(s)? Thanks. I’ve been looking, believe me, but haven’t found it. Appreciate your help.

YES, please read the section on “The Sacrament of Penance” (look in the index) - in the Canadian Rite, it’s paragraphs 528-530. I typed them out and quoted them earlier in this thread.

Again, we are not talking about people who have not yet been baptized - we are talking about people who were validly baptized in a different Christian tradition, who are now becoming Catholics.

I did read those parts. As I said previously. I didn’t see anywhere there that there was an absolute requirement for Penance. Thanks for any help.

 

[diggerdomer]

No there is no LOL here buddy. If you take communion and you are not in a state of Grace that means you are in mortal sin, and you CANNOT take communion. Case Closed there. If you go up while you know you are in a state of mortal sin and take communion you have condemned yourself before God.

And if you are in mortal sin it is not a norm it is a Absolute Requirement not buts about it. That is what the RCC teaches. And not venial sin is not mortal sin, You can have venial sin and not have to go to confession. If you pay attention you do a outward or public confession which is good for venial sin every sunday right before communion if you pay attention, which would put you in a state of grace if you have venial sin. Here it is. Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed. I never remember in my whole life not saying that. We also confess our sin every Sunday. Remember I confess to Almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters…

Mortal sin means you are in a state if sin and you cannot get communion period. Until you have absolution from the Priest. You need to study venial and mortal sin a little better. I will help you understand a little better.

So, again, where does the Rite (RCIA) of Church teach, explicitly and absolutely, that baptized Christians being initiated into full communion of the Catholic Church HAVE to celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation prior to their initiation?

 

[jmcrae]

So, again, where does the Rite (RCIA) of Church teach, explicitly and absolutely, that baptized Christians being initiated into full communion of the Catholic Church HAVE to celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation prior to their initiation?

It is exactly the same requirement as for Catholic children receiving the Sacraments of First Holy Communion or Confirmation - if they have sins to confess, then they go to Confession.

An opportunity for them to do so is arranged for them by the team who is preparing them to receive their Sacraments. If they choose not to make use of it, due to the fact that they have no sins to confess, no one will confront them, but at the same time, they will be strongly encouraged to make a good Examination of Conscience, and to make use of the opportunity provided for them. If they have mortal sins on their souls, and don’t go to Confession, then they will be adding sacrilege to their list of sins.

But if the RCIA team is negligent of the souls of these people, and refuses or can’t be bothered to provide them with the instruction and the opportunity to go to Confession, then the mortal sins with which they defile the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Confirmation will be on the heads of those who did not prepare them or provide them with the opportunity to go to Confession.

Why are you nitpicking on this? Are you a previously-baptized convert who did not make a First Confession before receiving Confirmation and First Holy Communion? Or are you an RCIA team member who has been neglecting to provide opportunities for the Candidates to make a First Confession? Are you trying to make yourself feel better about past neglectfulness by saying, “but it’s not actually required”? Just trying to figure out why you keep harping at this.

 

[jmcrae]

So, again, where does the Rite (RCIA) of Church teach, explicitly and absolutely, that baptized Christians being initiated into full communion of the Catholic Church HAVE to celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation prior to their initiation?

Let’s be absolutely clear here - this does not take place “prior to” their Initiation. It is part of their Initiation. Initiation takes place over a period of at least nine months, or up to two years. They begin the journey when they put their first footstep into their first Inquiry meeting. From that point on, they are no longer Protestant, but they are in a process of becoming more and more Catholic, until finally, in the third step, they begin to receive the Sacraments.

It’s not, one minute you are Protestant, and the next minute you are Catholic - no.

On Easter Vigil morning, when they are making their First Confession, they have no longer been Protestants for at least several months, already - they are just as Catholic at that moment of their journey as any baptized seven-year-old member of a Catholic family, going for his First Confession in preparation for First Holy Communion.

 

[Junebug999]

There is God’s mercy of course. One can throw themselves on God’s mercy. BUT God had a plan, and His plan as revealed through Jesus Christ who established the Catholic Church makes a way for us to reconcile to God because of our sin.

Now, you’re prefectly free to just hope for God’s mercy in your particular circumstance and beliefs (since you have absolute free will of course)…BUT now knowing about God’s revelation through Jesus Christ and the reconciliation offered through the Catholic Church that Christ instituted…wouldn’t it just be better to follow the Church’s teaching on reconciliation…

But then again…you have FREE will…it’s always always always…YOUR choice.

Do beware of a little small voice telling you, “God didn’t REALLY say you had to believe and follow His Church did he?” That little small voice may well be the same voice who asked Eve, “God didn’t REALLY say…sid he?”

 

[Julia1996]

There is God’s mercy of course. One can throw themselves on God’s mercy. BUT God had a plan, and His plan as revealed through Jesus Christ who established the Catholic Church makes a way for us to reconcile to God because of our sin.

Now, you’re prefectly free to just hope for God’s mercy in your particular circumstance and beliefs (since you have absolute free will of course)…BUT now knowing about God’s revelation through Jesus Christ and the reconciliation offered through the Catholic Church that Christ instituted…wouldn’t it just be better to follow the Church’s teaching on reconciliation…

But then again…you have FREE will…it’s always always always…YOUR choice.

Do beware of a little small voice telling you, “God didn’t REALLY say you had to believe and follow His Church did he?” That little small voice may well be the same voice who asked Eve, “God didn’t REALLY say…sid he?”

Good point there. God didn’t say that you had to go to Heaven either. If you don’t want to follow his Church, you are free to spend the rest of your life in Hell.

 

[diggerdomer]

It is exactly the same requirement as for Catholic children receiving the Sacraments of First Holy Communion or Confirmation - if they have sins to confess, then they go to Confession.

No, it’s not the same. It’s not only NOT exactly the same, it is quite different. That’s why the Catholic Church has a different Rite for Adults than for Children. Compare the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) with the sacramental Rites followed for Catholics who are (typically, in the Roman Rite) baptized as infants, and only later celebrate Eucharist and Confirmation. The Roman Catholic RCIA is much more continuous with the overall Catholic tradition (as it’s more similar to continuous and present Eastern Catholic tradition) than the practice that Roman “cradle Catholics” are likely familiar with.

required

"? Just trying to figure out why you keep harping at this.

I am doing nothing of the sort that you cite (or perhaps accuse me of).

I am merely pointing out the distinction of the Catholic Church Rites concerning the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist). If you read those Rites, I think you will see what I mean.

Sorry if I come across as “harping” that is not my intent. I was merely responding to a claim made that Reconciliation is absolutely required prior to Christian initiation. It’s simply not true, and likely more complex than many might think (e.g. those who don’t recognize the different practices within the Catholic Church regarding children and adults, and those who don’t know the historical development of the sacramental practices).

 

[diggerdomer]

Let’s be absolutely clear here - this does not take place “prior to” their Initiation. It is part of their Initiation. Initiation takes place over a period of at least nine months, or up to two years. They begin the journey when they put their first footstep into their first Inquiry meeting. From that point on, they are no longer Protestant, but they are in a process of becoming more and more Catholic, until finally, in the third step, they begin to receive the Sacraments.

Yes by all means let’s be absolutely clear here. Baptized Christians who desire to join full communion of the Catholic Church have no specified nor desired time period. It’s entirely based on the person’s actual situation.

Those adults who are not baptized and wish to be initiated into the (Roman) Catholic Church should, yes, follow a more lengthy period (normally one year as a minimum, not 9 months).

RCIA applies to both the non-baptized and to non-Catholic Christians, yet the paths are not the same.

One does not “begin to receive Sacraments” as part of becoming Catholic. One becomes (Roman) Catholic via the RCIA via the celebration of the appropriate sacraments of initiation. For non-baptized persons, this should normally take place at the Easter Vigil by celebrating baptism, confirmation, and Eucharist. For non-Catholic Christians, this takes place by celebrating Confirmation (as appropriate) and Eucharist…again at ONE celebration.

I think your thought about a process of “becoming more Catholic” might refer to the Catechumenate. Once a non-Christian becomes a Catechumen, yes, that person is joined to the Catholic Church in a privileged though incomplete way. Still, they are not able to celebrate Sacraments until they are baptized.

It’s not, one minute you are Protestant, and the next minute you are Catholic - no.

No, not literally one minute, but ONE liturgical/sacramental celebration marks the defining time when a non-Catholic becomes Catholic. Before that celebration, non-Catholic. After that celebration; Catholic.

On Easter Vigil morning, when they are making their First Confession, they have no longer been Protestants for at least several months, already - they are just as Catholic at that moment of their journey as any baptized seven-year-old member of a Catholic family, going for his First Confession in preparation for First Holy Communion.

Nothing in the RCIA requires anyone to celebrate Reconciliation on Easter Vigil morning.

They are not “just as Catholic” because they are not Catholics yet. They are still baptized Christians intending to join the full communion of the Catholic Church. Catholics baptized as infants are a different category.

 

[rinnie]

Digger, Listen to me, I KNOW that before I made my First Holy Communion I HAD to go to confession. HAD TO.

Now in the RCC The Rite of Penance reminds us that those who receive pardon for grave sins by a common absolution are strictly bound to go to individual confession within a year following reception of general absolution.

That is the teaching of the Church.

Now you must confess your sins before you are confirmed. This is taught from day one.

 

[rinnie]

Where is confession during the Scrutinies in the RCIA? Yes, the Scrutinies are, of course, part of RCIA…but where is confession required (and during the Scrutinies??). Thanks.

Where does the RCIA require (if it’s even possible) that on the day one is confirmed one is in a “state of Grace”? Is that anywhere in the text of the RCIA?

Of course it’s likely GOOD and encouraged to celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation before Confirmation…but where in the RCIA is this required?

This is not a fact according to Catholic teaching.

Yes digger this is a Catholic teaching.

The Rite of Penance says that the follower of Christ who has sinned must be moved by the Holy Spirit to come to the sacrament of penace should above all be comverted to God with his WHOLE heart.

Today there are 3 forms of Reconciliation.

The first is Individual Penitents.
The second is communal penance service
The third is general confession and is only used in extraordinary situations.

You must examine your conscience before communion on every Sunday or everyday for that fact before receiving it, and before a sacrament.

That is confession. That should have been taught to you from day one. In the RCC you must confess once a year, except as I stated above a general confession is acceptable in extraordinary circumstances, in which a Priest can give Absolution to ones who have no made a individual confession. But this is not common in the RCC. I personally do not ever recall it myself. But I do know that when there is a shortage of Priests its acceptable.

But rather it one on one with the Priest, one on one with you and God alone, or with a group it is always necessary. You should have been taught this from the start.

All I can figure out is because the word confession, or Penance, or Reconciliation is not used and what could be stated is to examine you conscience (which means confess) you just are not seeing it or something. Hope that helps. It must be worded in a way you can’t seem to find it, but trust me, its there.

 

[jmcrae]

RCIA applies to both the non-baptized and to non-Catholic Christians, yet the paths are not the same.

They are not the same, and yet, for both, reception of Confirmation and First Holy Communion is part of the Third Step. It is not the First Step, for Candidates - it is the Third Step. They have already received the First Step - the Rite of Welcoming - and the Second Step - the Call to a Deeper Conversion.

One does not “begin to receive Sacraments” as part of becoming Catholic. One becomes (Roman) Catholic via the RCIA via the celebration of the appropriate sacraments of initiation. For non-baptized persons, this should normally take place at the Easter Vigil by celebrating baptism, confirmation, and Eucharist. For non-Catholic Christians, this takes place by celebrating Confirmation (as appropriate) and Eucharist…again at ONE celebration.

Yes, but as is made abundantly clear throughout the Rite itself, this is not the First Step of conversion. It is the Third Step. They have already been on a journey of conversion for several months already, by this point.

Nothing in the RCIA requires anyone to celebrate Reconciliation on Easter Vigil morning.

It is the recommended method for Candidates being received on Easter Vigil night.

They are not “just as Catholic” because they are not Catholics yet. They are still baptized Christians intending to join the full communion of the Catholic Church.

And must do so in the State of Grace. Not in a state of mortal sin.

 

[Vince1022]

Digger, Listen to me, I KNOW that before I made my First Holy Communion I HAD to go to confession. HAD TO.

I believe you. I have no problem with that. In many places that is the norm. That doesn’t mean all those being initiated into the Catholic Church have to, by universal Church liturgical law.

Now you must confess your sins before you are confirmed. This is taught from day one.

No, it depends. Again, for those being initiated into the Catholic Church via the RCIA, there is no such absolute requirement. Read the RCIA.

 

[Vince1022]

Yes digger this is a Catholic teaching.

The Rite of Penance says that the follower of Christ who has sinned must be moved by the Holy Spirit to come to the sacrament of penace should above all be comverted to God with his WHOLE heart.

Today there are 3 forms of Reconciliation.

The first is Individual Penitents.
The second is communal penance service
The third is general confession and is only used in extraordinary situations.

You must examine your conscience before communion on every Sunday or everyday for that fact before receiving it, and before a sacrament.

That is confession. That should have been taught to you from day one. In the RCC you must confess once a year, except as I stated above a general confession is acceptable in extraordinary circumstances, in which a Priest can give Absolution to ones who have no made a individual confession. But this is not common in the RCC. I personally do not ever recall it myself. But I do know that when there is a shortage of Priests its acceptable.

But rather it one on one with the Priest, one on one with you and God alone, or with a group it is always necessary. You should have been taught this from the start.

All I can figure out is because the word confession, or Penance, or Reconciliation is not used and what could be stated is to examine you conscience (which means confess) you just are not seeing it or something. Hope that helps. It must be worded in a way you can’t seem to find it, but trust me, its there.

The original post I responded to was not about the Rite of Penance, but rather dealt with those being initiated into the Catholic faith. If you want to discuss the Rite of Penance, start a new thread.

The point I responded to regarded whether or not those being initiated into the Catholic Church had to celebrate Reconciliation prior to their Initiation, and as the Rite of the Church teaches (RCIA), the answer is no.

 

[Vince1022]

T

It is the recommended method for Candidates being received on Easter Vigil night.

Can you give a reference for where the Church (Magisterium) recommends this?

 

[diggerdomer]

Digger, Listen to me, I KNOW that before I made my First Holy Communion I HAD to go to confession. HAD TO.

I believe you. No problem. My point is that not everyone celebrating the sacraments of initiation have to. The post I responded to dealt with non-Catholics, and the RCIA. Again, where does the RCIA (which may not have applied to you) require Reconciliation prior to Initiation?

Now you must confess your sins before you are confirmed. This is taught from day one.

Again, it depends.

Eastern Catholics are fully initiated (i.e. celebrate baptism, confirmation/chrismation, and eucharist) all at once and so of course do not celebrate Reconciliation before that.

Non-Catholic Christians who desire full communion of the Catholic Church are not required to celebrate Reconciliation prior to confirmation and eucharist.

Non-Christians who are being fully initiated into the Catholic Church i.e. by celebrating baptism, confirmation, and eucharist at one celebration do not celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation prior to that.

Does that help clarify?

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes digger this is a Catholic teaching.

The Rite of Penance says that the follower of Christ who has sinned must be moved by the Holy Spirit to come to the sacrament of penace should above all be comverted to God with his WHOLE heart.

Today there are 3 forms of Reconciliation.

The first is Individual Penitents.
The second is communal penance service
The third is general confession and is only used in extraordinary situations.

You must examine your conscience before communion on every Sunday or everyday for that fact before receiving it, and before a sacrament.

That is confession. That should have been taught to you from day one. In the RCC you must confess once a year, except as I stated above a general confession is acceptable in extraordinary circumstances, in which a Priest can give Absolution to ones who have no made a individual confession. But this is not common in the RCC. I personally do not ever recall it myself. But I do know that when there is a shortage of Priests its acceptable.

But rather it one on one with the Priest, one on one with you and God alone, or with a group it is always necessary. You should have been taught this from the start.

All I can figure out is because the word confession, or Penance, or Reconciliation is not used and what could be stated is to examine you conscience (which means confess) you just are not seeing it or something. Hope that helps. It must be worded in a way you can’t seem to find it, but trust me, its there.

I was responding to a post on this thread that addressed those being initiated into the Catholic Church.

To my understanding, the topic was not about the Rite of Penance. You might want to start a new Thread if you want to get into the Rite of Penance specifically.

 

[rinnie]

I believe you. No problem. My point is that not everyone celebrating the sacraments of initiation have to. The post I responded to dealt with non-Catholics, and the RCIA. Again, where does the RCIA (which may not have applied to you) require Reconciliation prior to Initiation?

Again, it depends.

Eastern Catholics are fully initiated (i.e. celebrate baptism, confirmation/chrismation, and eucharist) all at once and so of course do not celebrate Reconciliation before that.

Non-Catholic Christians who desire full communion of the Catholic Church are not required to celebrate Reconciliation prior to confirmation and eucharist.

Non-Christians who are being fully initiated into the Catholic Church i.e. by celebrating baptism, confirmation, and eucharist at one celebration do not celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation prior to that.

Does that help clarify?

First Of all I was only speaking for the RCC. So that could be my bad there. But you still have to examine your conscience and that is confession. No matter how you want to say it.

Now I disagree that non-catholics that desire full communion of the CC do not have to do this, unless of course they are a infant not a adult. Because a infant does not have any sin, since Original sin was wiped away at Baptism (which is why Baptism is first) and is not capable of actual sin at that age.

But the moral of the story comes out the same in the end, both have been wiped clean of any sin, actual, or original. The infant still received the sacraments being cleaned from sin.

And once they hit the age of reason they also must go to confession, before receiving the Eucharist, so what really is he big difference.

The only difference is the Church discipline, not the Church teachings.

But because Confession was not possible at that age that is the only exception. Also is a infant was capable of actual sin at that age which we know isn’t then it could not be permitted without Confession.

 

[jmcrae]

Non-Christians who are being fully initiated into the Catholic Church i.e. by celebrating baptism, confirmation, and eucharist at one celebration do not celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation prior to that.

Yes, they do. We did, when I was being brought into the Church.

There are three options of which Rite to use for it, given in the chapter just preceding the paragraphs I gave you regarding the Sacrament of Penance for Candidates.

If it were not expected that one of the Rites will be chosen and used, then why would they bother to put them in there? Why would they bother with a short chapter explaining the reasoning behind Penance for Candidates, if the information is irrelevant?