Can we try this again?

[rinnie]

Yes, they do. We did, when I was being brought into the Church.

There are three options of which Rite to use for it, given in the chapter just preceding the paragraphs I gave you regarding the Sacrament of Penance for Candidates.

If it were not expected that one of the Rites will be chosen and used, then why would they bother to put them in there? Why would they bother with a short chapter explaining the reasoning behind Penance for Candidates, if the information is irrelevant?

Okay I just figured out what he wants to know:newidea:

The answer is Stage 3.

There are 5 stages in RCIA. To begin with it is ONLY for ADULTS. Thats what the A stands for to begin with.

Stage 3 is Called,Drum roll please…

1. Period of Purification and Or Illumination.

Which means, Throughout lent special Prayers are offered up at the SUNDAY EUCHARIST called SCRUTINES.

WHich mean Prayer for strengthening in those virtue and purification from all Past EVILS (aka, sins, aka confession).

There you go buddy, There is your answer. Stage 3 or Step 3 or whatever you wanted to call it Level 3. But its 3 our of 5 steps necessary for Completion into the RCC.

 

[diggerdomer]

Now I disagree that non-catholics that desire full communion of the CC do not have to do this, unless of course they are a infant not a adult.

Why do you disagree with it? Have you read the RCIA? Do you disagree with the RCIA, the authoritative liturgical rite of the Church for adult initiation? Or does the RCIA require what you claim?

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes, they do. We did, when I was being brought into the Church.

There are three options of which Rite to use for it, given in the chapter just preceding the paragraphs I gave you regarding the Sacrament of Penance for Candidates.

If it were not expected that one of the Rites will be chosen and used, then why would they bother to put them in there? Why would they bother with a short chapter explaining the reasoning behind Penance for Candidates, if the information is irrelevant?

Where does the Rite of the Roman Catholic Church, the RCIA, require this?

 

[jmcrae]

Where does the Rite of the Roman Catholic Church, the RCIA, require this?

The word “require” isn’t in the text itself, as you know. However, when the Rite gives the priest the choice of three possible Rites of Reconciliation for Candidates, you can be sure that there is an expectation that an opportunity to make a First Confession is supposed to be made available to the Candidates. Did you read the paragraphs I gave you earlier? They explain the reasoning behind having the Candidates make their First Confession just prior to their Confirmation and First Holy Communion.

There is nothing in there that indicates that it would be better if they were to delay their First Confession until after their First Holy Communion. And as others have pointed out, when we are working with children, we ensure that they make their First Confession at some point prior (even if it is just prior) to their First Holy Communion - and we ensure that an opportunity is available for children receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation just prior to receiving their Confirmation, as well, so as to be able to receive the graces of these Sacraments.

Why should we deny these graces to adult converts who happen to have been baptized in infancy?

 

[diggerdomer]

The word “require” isn’t in the text itself, as you know. However, when the Rite gives the priest the choice of three possible Rites of Reconciliation for Candidates, you can be sure that there is an expectation that an opportunity to make a First Confession is supposed to be made available to the Candidates. Did you read the paragraphs I gave you earlier? They explain the reasoning behind having the Candidates make their First Confession just prior to their Confirmation and First Holy Communion.

There is nothing in there that indicates that it would be better if they were to delay their First Confession until after their First Holy Communion. And as others have pointed out, when we are working with children, we ensure that they make their First Confession at some point prior (even if it is just prior) to their First Holy Communion - and we ensure that an opportunity is available for children receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation just prior to receiving their Confirmation, as well, so as to be able to receive the graces of these Sacraments.

Why should we deny these graces to adult converts who happen to have been baptized in infancy?

Where does the RCIA give three possible choices for the Rite of Reconciliation for Candidates? Paragraph numbers would be helpful, rather than pages, as we might have different versions of the Rite. Thanks for the help.

 

[jmcrae]

Where does the RCIA give three possible choices for the Rite of Reconciliation for Candidates? Paragraph numbers would be helpful, rather than pages, as we might have different versions of the Rite. Thanks for the help.

In my book, they are listed from paragraphs 522 to 527 - they are in the section right before the one I quoted earlier.

 

[rinnie]

Why do you disagree with it? Have you read the RCIA? Do you disagree with the RCIA, the authoritative liturgical rite of the Church for adult initiation? Or does the RCIA require what you claim?

Digger I just gave you the 5 stages required for adult initiation. ANd stage 3 as I stated requires Confession. So how can you say I disagree with the RCIA when I just stated the requirements.

I do not disagree with the RCIA requirements, I disagree with you when you said that confession was not need prior to Communion and Confirmation.

 

[Vince1022]

Digger I just gave you the 5 stages required for adult initiation. ANd stage 3 as I stated requires Confession. So how can you say I disagree with the RCIA when I just stated the requirements.

I do not disagree with the RCIA requirements, I disagree with you when you said that confession was not need prior to Communion and Confirmation.

But like digger asked, where in the RCIA (the Rite of the Roman Catholic Church) is this required? I’ve been looking but can’t find it. Thanks for any help.

 

[jmcrae]

But like digger asked, where in the RCIA (the Rite of the Roman Catholic Church) is this required? I’ve been looking but can’t find it. Thanks for any help.

I have answered this several times. I’ve typed out the paragraphs. (I don’t really have the time to type it all out again; please look earlier in the thread to find them.)

You will find the section on Candidates in the last section of the Rite, after the section on uncatechized Catholics. The section on Penitential Services for Candidates and uncatechized Catholics (that is, all those who were previously baptized) is found in paragraphs 522 to 527. The section that explains the reasoning behind Penance services for Candidates is from paragraph 528 to 530.

The word “required” isn’t in it; however, the fact that it exists, and that there are three possible Services of Penance for the priest to choose from, show us that it is expected that the Candidates will be given the opportunity to make their First Confession at some point prior to their Confirmation and First Holy Communion.

If they have no sins to confess, then obviously they would not be required to go to Confession (nor is any Catholic required to go to Confession at any time, if he has no sins to confess - not even once a year) - however, the Rite makes clear that the opportunity for them to do so is to be provided, and that they are to be encouraged to attend.

The reason is to allow them to be in the state of grace when they go to receive their Confirmation and First Holy Communion, so that they can be able to receive the graces of those Sacraments, just like children who go for their First Holy Communion are made able to receive their graces, by attending First Reconciliation before going to First Holy Communion, and just like children and teens receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation are made able to receive the graces of their Confirmation, by attending a Service of Penance during their Confirmation Retreat, just before receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation.

We don’t deny these graces to our children, nor to adult converts who are being baptized just prior to Confirmation and First Holy Communion; why should they be denied to adult converts who just happen to have been baptized previously?

 

[Vince1022]

You will find the section on Candidates in the last section of the Rite, after the section on uncatechized Catholics. The section on Penitential Services for Candidates and uncatechized Catholics (that is, all those who were previously baptized) is found in paragraphs 522 to 527. The section that explains the reasoning behind Penance services for Candidates is from paragraph 528 to 530.

The word “required” isn’t in it; however, the fact that it exists, and that there are three possible Services of Penance for the priest to choose from, show us that it is expected that the Candidates will be given the opportunity to make their First Confession at some point prior to their Confirmation and First Holy Communion.

This is the Canadian Rite, right? Just wanted to make sure I was looking in the right spot.

You’re right, it’s not required. Encouraged, yes.

There are only two forms of Penance listed there,I think. You’re referring to 529? (1) Rite of Reconciliation of Several Penitents with Individual Confession and Absolution and (2) Rite of Reconciliation of Individual Penitents.

522-527 describe Penitential Services; they are distinct from Sacramental Reconciliation (note the suggested form for such a service does not include the sacrament).

Thanks again for the reference.

 

[jmcrae]

This is the Canadian Rite, right? Just wanted to make sure I was looking in the right spot.

Yes - I don’t have access to the American edition.

You’re right, it’s not required. Encouraged, yes.

Right - which means that it should not be fluffed over as if it didn’t really matter, as I have seen happen, sometimes, with people mistakenly thinking that First Holy Communion washes away sins - it does not, and indeed it is a sacrilege to receive Holy Communion with unconfessed sins on your soul, thus piling sin upon sin.

There are only two forms of Penance listed there,I think. You’re referring to 529? (1) Rite of Reconciliation of Several Penitents with Individual Confession and Absolution and (2) Rite of Reconciliation of Individual Penitents.

Right - sorry, yes, there are two - even so, it seems clear that it is expected that the priest will make one of them available to the Candidates.

 

[Vince1022]

Yes - I don’t have access to the American edition.

Right - which means that it should not be fluffed over as if it didn’t really matter, as I have seen happen, sometimes, with people mistakenly thinking that First Holy Communion washes away sins - it does not, and indeed it is a sacrilege to receive Holy Communion with unconfessed sins on your soul, thus piling sin upon sin.

Right - sorry, yes, there are two - even so, it seems clear that it is expected that the priest will make one of them available to the Candidates.

I didn’t read anyone suggesting that this part of the RCIA be “fluffed over” but rather the question is what is required.

Wow, I’ve never encountered anyone thinking first Communion washes away sins…that seems odd. Baptism, of course, is the first sacrament that washes away sin. Which is why there’s no problem with adult converts being initiated into the Catholic Church without celebrating the sacrament of Reconciliation.

Regarding communion, I’m not sure it’s sacrilege, but it’s not permitted (according to the Roman Catholic Church) to receive while in a state of grave/mortal sin (not simply any state of sin).

 

[jmcrae]

I didn’t read anyone suggesting that this part of the RCIA be “fluffed over” but rather the question is what is required.

Wow, I’ve never encountered anyone thinking first Communion washes away sins…that seems odd. Baptism, of course, is the first sacrament that washes away sin. Which is why there’s no problem with adult converts being initiated into the Catholic Church without celebrating the sacrament of Reconciliation.

We aren’t talking about converts who are going to be baptized - we are talking about converts who were already baptized, typically in infancy or childhood, in a Protestant church.

Regarding communion, I’m not sure it’s sacrilege, but it’s not permitted (according to the Roman Catholic Church) to receive while in a state of grave/mortal sin (not simply any state of sin).

Right - which is why converts who were baptized already, need to make their First Confession before they receive Confirmation and First Holy Communion - not afterwards, as Diggerdomer is suggesting they should do.

 

[Vince1022]

We aren’t talking about converts who are going to be baptized - we are talking about converts who were already baptized, typically in infancy or childhood, in a Protestant church.

I wasn’t aware the OP made that distinction. The RCIA is used for both converts and non-Catholic Christians.

 

[diggerdomer]

In my book, they are listed from paragraphs 522 to 527 - they are in the section right before the one I quoted earlier.

522-527 of the Canadian Rite describe optional Penitential services. Encouraged, yes, but optional. They may be celebrated with the baptized or the non-baptized. And these services are NOT the sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[diggerdomer]

Digger I just gave you the 5 stages required for adult initiation. ANd stage 3 as I stated requires Confession. So how can you say I disagree with the RCIA when I just stated the requirements.

I do not disagree with the RCIA requirements, I disagree with you when you said that confession was not need prior to Communion and Confirmation.

Which post of yours listed the 5 stages? Sorry, I can’t find it. I know you mentioned 5 stages, and said some things about stage 3, but I’ve never heard of 5 stages, only four (Inquiry, Catechumenate, Purification and Enlightenment, and Mystagogy). And nowhere does initiation (RCIA) require sacramental confession.

 

[jmcrae]

522-527 of the Canadian Rite describe optional Penitential services. Encouraged, yes, but optional.

Right. The “alt.” option is individual confessions without the service beforehand. Not, no confession whatsoever.

They may be celebrated with the baptized or the non-baptized. And these services are NOT the sacrament of Reconciliation.

Read it carefully. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is to be celebrated with the Baptized candidates directly afterwards, if the service is used, and otherwise, the Candidates simply come for individual Confessions at the appointed time.

There is no option stated for the Candidates to not come to Confession. The reasoning is then explained in 528-530.

Why explain the reason for it, if it isn’t required?

 

[jmcrae]

I wasn’t aware the OP made that distinction. The RCIA is used for both converts and non-Catholic Christians.

Okay. From the top.

If the participant is not baptized, then the participant will be baptized at the time of Initiation, and his sins will be washed away in Baptism. Unbaptized persons cannot make use of the Sacrament of Reconciliation anyway; see paragraph 528, Reconciliation is “second baptism” and you can’t have a second baptism if you haven’t yet had the first one.

For those who were baptized previously, the Sacrament of Reconciliation is to be made available as a kind of “second baptism” prior to the reception of Confirmation and First Holy Communion, just as baptism is coming before Confirmation and First Holy Communion for those being baptized. Paragraphs 528-530.

Notice, too, how the steps for the baptized participants are parallel with, but not identical to, the steps for the unbaptized participants, throughout the whole process.

 

[rinnie]

Which post of yours listed the 5 stages? Sorry, I can’t find it. I know you mentioned 5 stages, and said some things about stage 3, but I’ve never heard of 5 stages, only four (Inquiry, Catechumenate, Purification and Enlightenment, and Mystagogy). And nowhere does initiation (RCIA) require sacramental confession.

Digger what do you think Purification and Enlightenment is?

You can’t even go to communion without penance.

1486 The forgiveness of sins commited after Baptism is confirred by a particular sacrament of conversion, confession, penance or reconciliation.

1489 To return to communion with God after having lost it through sin is a process born of the grace of God who is rich in mercy and solicitious for the salvation of men. ONE MUST ask for this precious gift for ONESELF and OTHERS.

ONE MUST ASK for this precious gift, that does not say it is recommended.

 

[rinnie]

I believe you. No problem. My point is that not everyone celebrating the sacraments of initiation have to. The post I responded to dealt with non-Catholics, and the RCIA. Again, where does the RCIA (which may not have applied to you) require Reconciliation prior to Initiation?

Again, it depends.

Eastern Catholics are fully initiated (i.e. celebrate baptism, confirmation/chrismation, and eucharist) all at once and so of course do not celebrate Reconciliation before that.

Non-Catholic Christians who desire full communion of the Catholic Church are not required to celebrate Reconciliation prior to confirmation and eucharist.

Non-Christians who are being fully initiated into the Catholic Church i.e. by celebrating baptism, confirmation, and eucharist at one celebration do not celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation prior to that.

Does that help clarify?

Digger you must use common sense here. If a infant has all of the rites together at once how if sin possible? Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. So if one has all three together there would be no need for confession for sinning would not be possible.

Also the same would go for an adult. What is Baptism? SImple the washing away of ones sins. It does not only wash originial sin its washes all sins commited.

The ONLY reason that the Roman Rite requires this is because they are not given all at the same time. In order to be Baptised it can be given immediately from a Priest. But being baptised Catholic in the RCC does not mean that you completed the process. And in order to complete the process confession is

Read the CCC 1486 The forgiveness of sins commited after BAPTISM is conferred by a particular Sacrament.

And I disagree with you when you say that not every person celebrating the Sacraments has to. Unless of course they are an infant. and that is only because they are incapable of commiting actual sin.

But no matter what rite the person enters if an adult they must still go through the process of conversion and repentance.

I think that what you really have to do is understand what true conversion and repentance is.

Read 1437 of the CCC. Reading SS, praying the Liturgy of the Hours and the Our Father-- every sincere act of worship or devotion revives the spirit of conversion and repentance WITHIN US and CONTRIBUTES to the forgiveness of ours sins.

There are 2 types of conversion. And 1428 CCC tells us that there is ALWAYS a need for the second conversion.

St Ambrose says of the two conversions that in the Church there are water and tears, the water of Baptism and the tears of repentance. One is not possible for an adult without the other.

So now back to using comming sense we are talking about ADULTs comming into the Church.

Conversion to Christ in Baptism is holy and without blemish. Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature nor the inclination to sin that traditon calls concupiscence which remains in the baptised such that with the help fo the grace of Christ they may PROVE themselves in the struggle of Christian life.

In 1310 Its states clearly that one MUST be in a state of Grace. Now unless you had all of the 3 sacrments together as a infant how is it possible to be in a state of grace w/o confession. Conversion. And how is conversion possible without repentance?

1233 States that ALL the rites in Christian RCIA must follow the stages. 1233 The Christian initiatiion of adults BEGINS with their entry into the catechumenate and reaches its culmination in a single celebration of the 3 sacraments of Initiation.

That entry REQUIRES as I stated above a process of repentance and conversion. That is mandatory, Repentance is confession! And you are asking about adults here. No matter what rite it is required in both.