Can we try this again?

[jmcrae]

Provision is made, but it’s not required. That’s my point.

It is required that the RCIA team and the pastor of the parish make provision for the Candidates and Uncatechized Catholics to make a First Confession, including offering them appropriate preparation and skill-development to be able to complete the task successfully.

If they choose not to make use of it (not out of fear that they won’t know what to say or do in the Confessional, and not from a lack of understanding of what they mean to accomplish by means of this Sacrament, but because they have made a thorough examination of themselves and find that they have nothing to confess) that is up to them, just as it is up to all of us to examine our consciences regularly, and make decisions about whether or not to go to Confession, each week or whenever the opportunity presents itself.

 

[diggerdomer]

How do you figure?

Because the penitential service described does not include the Rite of Reconciliation. There is no absolution in that penitential Rite, it’s simply not the sacrament. That’s all. It’s clear from the Rite.

Of course we can confess sins without a priest. But Catholics cannot celebrate the Sacrament without a priest.

 

[diggerdomer]

It is required that the RCIA team and the pastor of the parish make provision for the Candidates and Uncatechized Catholics to make a First Confession, including offering them appropriate preparation and skill-development to be able to complete the task successfully.

If they choose not to make use of it (not out of fear that they won’t know what to say or do in the Confessional, and not from a lack of understanding of what they mean to accomplish by means of this Sacrament, but because they have made a thorough examination of themselves and find that they have nothing to confess) that is up to them, just as it is up to all of us to examine our consciences regularly, and make decisions about whether or not to go to Confession, each week or whenever the opportunity presents itself.

It may or may not be part of the Rite, what you claim (please share references).

Regradless, it’s not required.

 

[diggerdomer]

Then, you need to provide an opportunity for them to go to Confession before receiving Confirmation and First Holy Communion - just as it states in the Rite.

Don’t you think?

Of course the opportunity should be provided. I never said nor suggested otherwise.

 

[diggerdomer]

Huh??? a provision is a stipuation and a stipulation is a essential condition to an agreement which is Confession.

Now how could a essential condition not be required? What would you say the provision which is made then is?

Where does the Rite (RCIA) agree with your interpretation?

Where does the Church say, as you claim, that a provision is a stipulation and therefore essential?

 

[rinnie]

Because the penitential service described does not include the Rite of Reconciliation. There is no absolution in that penitential Rite, it’s simply not the sacrament. That’s all. It’s clear from the Rite.

Of course we can confess sins without a priest. But Catholics cannot celebrate the Sacrament without a priest.

Yes they can, as long as they are not in a state if mortal sin, and have confessed venial sins to a priest AT LEAST ONCE a year, They can afterwards confess venial sin to Our Lord in Church before communion without confessing privately to a Priest.

Its done every Sunday for goodness sakes. If this were not possible NO ONE would be able to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday.

 

[rinnie]

Because the penitential service described does not include the Rite of Reconciliation. There is no absolution in that penitential Rite, it’s simply not the sacrament. That’s all. It’s clear from the Rite.

Of course we can confess sins without a priest. But Catholics cannot celebrate the Sacrament without a priest.

Digger what are you talking about? Reconcilliation IS a Sacrament.

Let me explain this to you one more time.

The week BEFORE Easter everyone that is ready to become Catholic at the Easter Vigil the Sat Before Easter and are BAPTISED enter the Catholic Church BY MAKING a profession of faith and RECEIVING the SACRAMENTS. THEY CELEBRATE the Sacrament of CONFESSSON before Easter.

If a person is not BAPTISED and receive ALL of the Sacraments together then the first confession is about 2 months later.

What part of Baptism making confession unnecessary because it wipes away all previous sin do you not understand.

One does not have to make a valid confession before being baptised. Like I told you before, if this was necessary a baby could not be Baptised into the faith.

Now if a person who has a valid Baptism, lets use my husband for example, and was told that in order to receive the Sacrament of Communion and Confirmation cannot be in a state of mortal or venial sin, then how could you see this possible for him to stand up in front of God and receive it. He would be condemning himself in front of God.

So now you tell me, do you know ANY ADULT you have ever met who were baptised as an infant or child who later in life never commited any kind of sin after that Baptism. If you did then YES they could receive the sacrament without a confession.

But I would sure like to meet them!!

 

[rinnie]

Because the penitential service described does not include the Rite of Reconciliation. There is no absolution in that penitential Rite, it’s simply not the sacrament. That’s all. It’s clear from the Rite.

Of course we can confess sins without a priest. But Catholics cannot celebrate the Sacrament without a priest.

Digger please look up the 3 Forms of the Rite of Recon. in the Roman Catholic Church.

We have shown those to you before, but I think that you need check them out for yourself and then you can see for yourself what they are.

Then you can see what general absolution is, If that does not help have your Priest expalin it to you.

 

[jmcrae]

It may or may not be part of the Rite, what you claim (please share references).

I keep on giving you the references, over and over and over again. Why can’t you read and understand, that the fact that it is written into the Rite, the whole thing about Reconciliation being a second baptism (HELLO, the context of this is the Sacrament of Reconciliation for those who were baptized previously - seems like the Pope thinks it’s part of the Initiation process for the previously-baptized, so, seems like we should be doing it!)

 

[jmcrae]

Of course the opportunity should be provided. I never said nor suggested otherwise.

You keep on saying “It’s not required.” Meaning that you think it doesn’t matter whether it’s provided, or not.

Pick a side, man.

 

[rinnie]

You keep on saying “It’s not required.” Meaning that you think it doesn’t matter whether it’s provided, or not.

Pick a side, man.

Amen to that!! I don’t know what else to tell him. I mean on the flip side if the Priest lets someone go to the Sacrament of the Eucharist and Confirmation without Confession without letting him know that he is condemning himself before God

I mean isn’t that what he is really saying then?? Is that not what he is accusing the RCC of? I just don’t know what to say anymore.

Guess I better get back to some prayer and hope tommorow will be a better day

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes they can, as long as they are not in a state if mortal sin, and have confessed venial sins to a priest AT LEAST ONCE a year, They can afterwards confess venial sin to Our Lord in Church before communion without confessing privately to a Priest.

Yes, they can do this, but this is not the same as celebrating the sacrament. Read the Catechism, the Rites of the Church, Canon Law (this may be especially helpful to you, see canons 959-997 vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3E.HTM, etc. Simply put…Catholic celebration of the sacrament of Reconciliation requires a priest (i.e. Bishop or Priest).

The GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) which regulates the celebration of the Mass, specifically notes this:

The Act of Penitence

1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3a

Its done every Sunday for goodness sakes. If this were not possible NO ONE would be able to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday.

No, the sacrament of Reconciliation is not celebrated by all Catholics every Sunday. Yes, the Act of Penitence (aka Penitential Rite) is part of every Mass, but it is not the same as the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[diggerdomer]

You keep on saying “It’s not required.” Meaning that you think it doesn’t matter whether it’s provided, or not.

Pick a side, man.

I am picking a side. My side says it’s not required.

Saying “it’s not required” is completely different (despite what you posted) as to whether such should be provided. See my post #262.

 

[diggerdomer]

Digger what are you talking about? Reconcilliation IS a Sacrament.

Ummm…where in the world did you get the idea I said otherwise? Really? Of COURSE Reconciliation is a sacrament. Please, show me one post of mine where I said otherwise.

The week BEFORE Easter everyone that is ready to become Catholic at the Easter Vigil the Sat Before Easter and are BAPTISED enter the Catholic Church BY MAKING a profession of faith and RECEIVING the SACRAMENTS. THEY CELEBRATE the Sacrament of CONFESSSON before Easter.

Again (ad nauseam) where does the Church require (please, again ad nauseam, REQUIRE) the celebration of the Sacrament of Reconciliation before initiation? I’ve asked this question so many times and as of yet NO ONE has provided me the Rite of the Church (or other Magisterial teaching) that says such.

What part of Baptism making confession unnecessary because it wipes away all previous sin do you not understand.

One does not have to make a valid confession before being baptised. Like I told you before, if this was necessary a baby could not be Baptised into the faith.

Ummm, without meaning disrepect…DUH. This is exactly what I’ve been saying all along. Where did you ever get the idea I would disagree with that? From one of my posts? Which one? Are you really reading my posts?

Now if a person who has a valid Baptism, lets use my husband for example, and was told that in order to receive the Sacrament of Communion and Confirmation cannot be in a state of mortal or venial sin, then how could you see this possible for him to stand up in front of God and receive it.

I’m simply asking, as I have asked numerous times on this Thread, in this example, show me where the Church REQUIRES the Sacrament of Reconciliation prior to Initiation. That’s all. Simple, straightforward, please give me a reference from Church teaching (catechism, canon law, liturgical Rites…anything?).

 

[diggerdomer]

Digger please look up the 3 Forms of the Rite of Recon. in the Roman Catholic Church.

We have shown those to you before, but I think that you need check them out for yourself and then you can see for yourself what they are.

Then you can see what general absolution is, If that does not help have your Priest expalin it to you.

I am familiar with the 3 forms.

What do YOU think General Absolution is? If you think it’s what happens at Mass you are seriously misinformed.

 

[Church_Militant]

I am familiar with the 3 forms.

What do YOU think General Absolution is? If you think it’s what happens at Mass you are seriously misinformed.

Yeah…the church teaches that venial sins are absolved in the Eucharist, but you can’t even receive if you are in mortal sin.

From all I have read. General Absolution is supposed to be a rare occurrence for special circumstances.

 

[rinnie]

I am familiar with the 3 forms.

What do YOU think General Absolution is? If you think it’s what happens at Mass you are seriously misinformed.

Okay then digger what is this?

Almighty and everlasting God who forgave the People o Nineveh who REPENTED;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Grant that WE TRULY REPENTING for SINS may OBTAIN the PERFECT PARDON and RELEASE for our SINS through of Lord Jesus Christ Amen.

Now if the perfect pardon and release from ous sins is not a gemeral Absolution could you explain to me what is?

 

[rinnie]

Ummm…where in the world did you get the idea I said otherwise? Really? Of COURSE Reconciliation is a sacrament. Please, show me one post of mine where I said otherwise.

Again (ad nauseam) where does the Church require (please, again ad nauseam, REQUIRE) the celebration of the Sacrament of Reconciliation before initiation? I’ve asked this question so many times and as of yet NO ONE has provided me the Rite of the Church (or other Magisterial teaching) that says such.

Ummm, without meaning disrepect…DUH. This is exactly what I’ve been saying all along. Where did you ever get the idea I would disagree with that? From one of my posts? Which one? Are you really reading my posts?

I’m simply asking, as I have asked numerous times on this Thread, in this example, show me where the Church REQUIRES the Sacrament of Reconciliation prior to Initiation. That’s all. Simple, straightforward, please give me a reference from Church teaching (catechism, canon law, liturgical Rites…anything?).

Well digger you can DUH all you want, but USUALLY because ADULTS are the ones becomming part of the RCC they are usually Baptised already in another faith. We have told you numerous of times that if you are an adult and you have had a previous Christian Baptsim it is requried. You keep saying where, we have showed you. It is done before Easter Sunday and before the person receives their first communion.

Only and Only if there was no previous Baptism it is not required. But it is still REQUIRED about a month or so after being taken into the CC.

That is why we ALSO told you Numerous times that each individual is different according to their needs.

Some people have had the Baptism in the RCC and Communion, and Confession, and only need confirmed as an Adult to complete the process. That is why it IS STATED that the process can be different for everyone.

 

[rinnie]

That is also why there is a DIFFERENCE between candidates and cathecumens. One has a valid Baptism one does not.

If one has a valid Baptism confession is necessary, if one does not it is not necessary until a week or so after the 3 are admimistered at the same time in the RCC.

 

[jmcrae]

I am picking a side. My side says it’s not required.

Saying “it’s not required” is completely different (despite what you posted) as to whether such should be provided. See my post #262.

So, it’s required that it should be provided, but, it doesn’t really matter one way or another whether it’s provided or not, because really, it’s not required.

:whacky: