Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

[lynnvinc]

That said, what most people say when they mean “liberal” is just that they like government welfare programs, which can be reconciled to Catholicism. But that’s not really what liberalism is.

Some of my more Catholic brothers and sisters have accused me of being liberal because I am pro union, pro gun control, pro publicly paid health care/dental care and pro welfare/ social security disability for those who need it. At the same time I believe abortion and birth control are immoral. I do NOT believe in moral relitivism. Yet some associate this stuff as being evil and resort labeling me a liberal which is meant to be derogatory.

Personally I believe that right wing conservatism is far worse then liberalism and far more dangerous because it is violent and has adopted a spirit of cruelty and murder. This has become self evident in just the past two years with the violent attack against a San Diego Congress woman and most recently the violent attacks in Norway. Even before congresswoman Gabrial Gifford, there were two other liberal politicians, one a judge and I think the other a congressman who were assisinated in just the past 2 years by right wing extemist. Embracing a moral relativism is sin against your own soul but embracing murder and cruelty destroys many lives and ruins the souls of many.

I read one poster here who said that he/or she grew up in a Facist society and as a result embraced communism but then found their rightful place in the Holy Catholic faith. They concluded that we should be guided by our faith. BRAVO!

The problem here is that too many Christians have replaced good and evil with liberal and conservatism. The good supports the common good of humanity while evil is oriented towards individualism, self indulgence, and greed. And it does so often by appearing as an angel of light. Again we should be guided by our Catholic faith which is Holy and Apostolic guided unto all truth by the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you all.

David
Well said!

 

[davidmlamb]

I don’t think there’s any evidence that Gifford’s attempted assassin was in any meaningful sense “right-wing,” even by the relatively denuded standards for the “right-wing” we have today. It was just assumed in the immediate aftermath that, because she was a Democrat, her attempted assassin must have been a conservative, and some nonsense was added about Sarah Palin at some point.

Incidentally, a judge was killed in the Giffords shooting, though he was a conservative and a Republican appointee.

To my knowledge there have been no successful assassination attempts of a federal official in the United States for several decades.

And of course there have been plenty of incidents of left-wing related violence both here and abroad. The Rodney King riots, the ongoing riots in Greece, and sporadic stories of union-related violence spring quickly to mind. I don’t think it’s fair to say these stories arise from some natural left-wing proclivity, nor is it fair to say that violence committed by conservatives (the Giffords shooting, again, doesn’t count here) is indicative of something essential to conservatism. Man is a fallen creature, and some more fallen than others; violence is simply the logical consequence of disregarding our true natures and embracing, instead, the animality of our material form.

You never did comment on the incident in Norway which was undoubtedly a right wing attack on liberalism. Rodney King was not a liberal, he was a criminal and too much of a fool to hold to any political values. What union violence are you referring too so I can properly comment on it? Liberalism by its nature is passive and not aggressive, so it cannot resort to urben violence (not withstanding abortion). I believe the gospel embraces much more concepts that are labeled liberal then what are labeled conservative today. I just want people to think about the fact that we need to be guided by our faith and not so much our traditional american politics. I wish there was a viable third party that truly embraced the social justice teachings of the church. Yes man is a fallen creature but the power of the cross has redeamed us and called us to a life of righteousness that has been enabled by grace. So although we are born a fallen being, we have been baptized into new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17) and we should build on that foundation.

To Him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever AMEN!

David

 

[sw85]

You never did comment on the incident in Norway which was undoubtedly a right wing attack on liberalism. Rodney King was not a liberal, he was a criminal and too much of a fool to hold to any political values. What union violence are you referring too so I can properly comment on it? Liberalism by its nature is passive and not aggressive, so it cannot resort to urben violence (not withstanding abortion). I believe the gospel embraces much more concepts that are labeled liberal then what are labeled conservative today. I just want people to think about the fact that we need to be guided by our faith and not so much our traditional american politics. I wish there was a viable third party that truly embraced the social justice teachings of the church. Yes man is a fallen creature but the power of the cross has redeamed us and called us to a life of righteousness that has been enabled by grace. So although we are born a fallen being, we have been baptized into new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17) and we should build on that foundation.

Well, as I said above, most of what is today called “conservative” is really just a primitive variant of liberalism; the real conservatives are mostly all dead. I suppose you can say that that earlier variant of liberalism is inherently more violent, but that’s not saying much, and it would hardly reflect well on the main body of liberalism. My point about Rodney King was that the race riots following from his verdict had to do with some vague leftist notion of racial justice being subverted. And there are plenty of examples of union violence; you can find them on wikipedia or google: “union violence.”

I think your claim that the left is “passive not aggressive” is an absurd perversion of all the historical evidence. Plenty of leftist movements have been not only violent but excessively and immorally so. The French Revolution and any communist revolution spring to mind.

I really don’t know where you get the idea that the Gospels are “more” left-wing than right-wing (and again, no doubt you believe that the modern right is completely distinct from the left, which is simply false). The left’s fetishistic individualism, rejection of duty, contempt for natural law and organized religion, consequentialism and utilitarianism, etc., are all flatly incompatible with the Church and its teachings. You can transplant a few ideas currently harped on by the left (such as its support for welfare) into a coherent Church teaching, but by doing so you will have abandoned that which makes the left what it is. And at any rate, you can extract most of the same policies out of, say, a neofeudalist system.

Of course, as I said, much of the modern “right” is just as incompatible with Catholicism, but that stands to reason given that the modern “right” are really just the leftists of a few generations ago. If there were anything like a “one true Catholic social system” it would look nothing like what either ideology systematically proposes today. It would, I’d submit, far more closely resemble the High Middle Ages.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Personally I believe that right wing conservatism is far worse then liberalism and far more dangerous because it is violent and has adopted a spirit of cruelty and murder. This has become self evident in just the past two years with the violent attack against a San Diego Congress woman and most recently the violent attacks in Norway. Even before congresswoman Gabrial Gifford, there were two other liberal politicians, one a judge and I think the other a congressman who were assisinated in just the past 2 years by right wing extemist.

Hate can find it’s way into anyone’s heart- black,white,purple,liberal,conservative, whatever.

That being said…

When someone who is or can be made appear to be “conservative” commits an act of violence it gets an huge amout of media attention. When they are a liberal? Not so much. Remember the professor who was a huge Obama fan that shot her co-workers? When the story broke the press labeled her a “tea partier” once it became clear she was an Obama booster…story? what story?

The VAST majority of violent crime occurs in cities that have been ruled by democrats for most of the past century. The victims are democrats and so are the attackers.

The state of American cities is also the greatest argument against a Catholic supporting government social welfare programs. As Catholics we should seek to help the poor, that is true. The problem is that these programs make poverty WORSE. In addition they replace true Christian charity with the force of government. If the ushers physically shook everyone down for money during the collection, they might get a little more (for awhile at least), but it wouldn’t be LOVE. You can’t force someone to love. Taking tax money from someone and giving a small portion of it to someone else (after spending most of it to feed the government beast) is not charity.

 

[Brendan]

. However, since we live in a rights-based code of ethics (rather than a duty-based code of ethics, which is closer to Church teaching and the 10 Commandments), .

FYI, Catholic Moral Theology is a Virtual based code of ethics, not a duty based.

Virtue based ethics are based on obtaining a definitive (non relative) Good. Duty based ethics are based on percieved sociological requirements, ie Kant’s Categorical Imperatives.

The modern Conservative ethics are more closely aligned with Virtue based ethics ( family values etc…) than duty.

Liberal ethics are more results based ethics, where actions are defined as just based on their effect on society. That is moral relativism at it’s core and antithetical to Catholic Moral teaching.

 

[DJ_Pius_X]

I think it’s kind of a shame that the US political system is so polarizing. I certainly hope it’s possible to be a liberal Catholic…indeed, I would say it’s possible in the same way that it’s possible to be a conservative Catholic. “The Left” holds some views that Rome would call heretical, but then again so do many Catholics. On the other hand, it is possible to oppose abortion while supporting things like universal healthcare and an end to the War. Right?

 

[Dan_Daly]

I think it’s kind of a shame that the US political system is so polarizing. I certainly hope it’s possible to be a liberal Catholic…indeed, I would say it’s possible in the same way that it’s possible to be a conservative Catholic. “The Left” holds some views that Rome would call heretical, but then again so do many Catholics. On the other hand, it is possible to oppose abortion while supporting things like universal healthcare and an end to the War. Right?

By universal health care do you mean “Obamacare” specifically? If so, no I don’t think a Catholic can support it and be faithful to the Church at the same time. It supports abortion and contraception. (It’s also not universal, but that’s not as key a point).

If you mean some other as yet unproposed “Universal” health care plan, its very difficult to see one coming forward that would not support things intrinsically evil- like abortion and contraception. If one, did I think there would still be serious reasons to be against it The 20th century shows a grim picture of what happens in centralized states. The idea that the state owns the body of the individual- which is what the health care mandate means- would also be contrary to church teaching. But all this is hypothetical.

Ending the war- yes you can be in favor of ending the war(s). I am. But it’s also worth noting that the Church has not said that any of the conflicts (none of them are actually declared wars) that the US is currently engaged in are actually unjust wars that we MUST be in favor of ending. This is a very serious matter for Catholics in the military. If the war was unjust we could not fight without jeopardizing our souls. The Church, through the Archdiocese of the Military, has told serviceman that they CAN fight in these conflicts, which is at a least defacto opinion that the wars ARE just.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

The problem here is that too many Christians have replaced good and evil with liberal and conservatism. The good supports the common good of humanity while evil is oriented towards individualism, self indulgence, and greed. And it does so often by appearing as an angel of light. Again we should be guided by our Catholic faith which is Holy and Apostolic guided unto all truth by the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you all.

David

If people would just say what they mean, rather than using politically and emotionally charged words that barely communicate anything. Can you be an abortion supporter and a Catholic? No. Can you be pro-union, pro-universal healthcare, anti-war, support policies that some characterize as amnesty and be a Catholic? Absolutely.

 

[Riley08]

For those Catholics who are pro-life and also concerned about social justice and the environment, for example, they are stuck between parties.>

I am politically progressive but pro-life. I proudly voted for Obama and I’d do it again in a heartbeat. A lot of very conservative, very Republican Catholics post on the Catholic Answer Forums, so I take a lot of flak. I comfort myself with the thought that these forums aren’t the whole Church. Deo gratia!

Excellent post!! It is exactly how I feel as well. Aside from the pro-life/abortion issue, I can’t imagine how Catholics can align themselves with the Republican party. The Republican party abhors the poor and downtrodden and seeks to persecute them at every turn.

 

[Jason_1977]

I wanted to highlight this, because I think it’s very important. Most of what we call “conservatism” today is not really conservatism at all, it’s simply an earlier form of liberalism, which the main body of liberalism has abandoned. Most of what modern “conservatives” are hoping to “conserve” is actually just the accomplishments of liberals a few centuries ago, and those accomplishments are things that men like Thomas Aquinas would’ve been appalled by.

Personally, I identify conservatism with rejection of modernity, by which I mean the modern philosophical project (beginning with William of Ockham and John Duns Scotus and proceeding from there). I think true conservatism died as a coherent movement with the French Revolution (specifically the defeat of the French counterrevolutionaries) and nearly all of Western politics since then has been characterized by war between competing left-wing sects.

This explains, to a strong degree, why modern “conservatism” has proven utterly unable to resist the tide of modern liberalism. It can’t; modern liberalism is the logical conclusion of that which modern “conservatives” believe because they are ideological bedfellows. It also suggests, to me, why the Catholic Church never really caught on in America on its own: I associate Catholicism with anti-modern conservatism and Protestantism with pro-modern liberalism. America, being a fundamentally liberal nation, would naturally gravitate toward the latter. I think the only thing that really sustained the Church in America was mass immigration from heavily Catholic nations like Ireland, Italy, and Mexico.

Conservativism today is essentially small changes IF any. Small gov’t. No wild fiscal spending. Strong defense. Strong family values. Self reliance.

Liberalism today is MORE gov’t, spend baby, spend, dampen defenses by spending less on the military & more on minority interests, (minority I mean pet projects & slush projects), LAX moral & family values, the government’s job is to bail you out of your troubles.

THIS is more or less the jist of todays left & right of center. I’m a conservative, so it’s also my interpretation. I WILL say, I don’t think either side is unAmerican. I WILL say I think many from both sides are from Mars & must be ex-patriated back to whence they came, LOL! Granted the right stands for values & the left stands for basically do whatever makes you happy, no matter how F’d up it is or seems to other people. I personally find the left scary & that they always are the first to shout and get angry when talking about issues about the country. Can anyone explain THAT to me? Why can’t a liberal talk about things calmly? It’s one thing to be passionate about an issue, but why the flippant tempers? LOL!

Anyhow, yes, great post! I’m right there w. ya! I reject modernity by refusing to own a cell phone! I also still have more VHS than I do DVD, LOL!!!

 

[Jason_1977]

Excellent post!! It is exactly how I feel as well. Aside from the pro-life/abortion issue, I can’t imagine how Catholics can align themselves with the Republican party. The Republican party abhors the poor and downtrodden and seeks to persecute them at every turn.

It’s very easy to not be a democrat. I’m a gun owner. I only have 3, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun, 1 black powder rifle. Democrats forget that the 2nd amendment is not about hunting.

There are more pro-choice democrats out there than you can shake a stick at. It’s a pro-choice party. That’s an easy one.

I am poor, but not down trodden (actually not any more). I’m a conservative, but I don’t think the Republican party abhors anyone. They are pro-SELF RELIANCE. There are many quotes on this topic alone. The government has ONE job and one job ONLY. Its job is to GOVERN. If its job was to take care of the poor and down trodden, then the citizens of the country would be less inclined to open their hearts and be more apt & able to take care of their fellow man. How many federally funded soup kitchens do you know of? As far as being persecuted for being poor?

I don’t know about being persecuted, I have been raised in a poor family my whole life & have had to move several times. Been homeless once, (for 6 weeks), and have had 2 houses pulled from under our feet & had the county authorites come to take our stuff & put it in the driveway. Imagine getting on the bus for school being asked, " are you guys having a tag sale?" I ended up joining the Navy, got not one but TWO GI Bills, am 3 yrs into my bachelors degree & am about to buy my 2nd house because the money I make in the merchant marines is SWEET! SO. God helps those that help themselves. All people have to do is try. Are there people w. disabilities, sure. BUT, I’d venture to say that MOST of them aren’t disabled. I was raised poor. Was poor my whole life. Lived a sailor’s life for 12 years now. Which is STILL living out of a bag for months at a time. My parents now have their dream home & were able to retire in peace and are NOW on a cruise. I helped them out big time, but yes. My family had 3 kids in a poor family that struggled. I’m only one story. It’s the reason WHY I CANT be a liberal. Family values, people helping others, & self reliance. Liberalism just doesn’t make any sense to me at all.

 

[AHapka]

and an end to the War. Right?

If liberals truly believed in ending war, we’d be out of Iraq and Afghanistan already, wouldn’t have gone into Libya, and would have shut down gitmo.

I’m sorry, but Obama mislead everyone about his anti-war stance when he ran.

 

[AHapka]

The Republican party abhors the poor and downtrodden and seeks to persecute them at every turn.

No, the Republican party wants to give everyone a chance to succeed. The Democratic party believes everyone should be held down to the lowest common denominator.

Where you get the idea that the Republican part “seeks to persecute them at every turn” is totally misinformation you have been given.

But we can truthfully say that the Democratic party seeks to persecute the unborn at every turn.

 

[Jason_1977]

If liberals truly believed in ending war, we’d be out of Iraq and Afghanistan already, wouldn’t have gone into Libya, and would have shut down gitmo.

I’m sorry, but Obama mislead everyone about his anti-war stance when he ran.

Right there w. you. Obama is the reason the US Dollar is going to lose its status as the Reserve Standard. The world is already unloading their US dollars. THere’s signs in mexico now that say, NO DOLLARS POR FAVOR. In Washington DC & Manhattan, there’s shops w. signs in the window that say “Euros Accepted”. Now WHY do you think that is? Once the Dollar loses its status as the reserve standard internationally, that’s it. It will be like Great Britain a few decades ago. The Pound Sterling USED to be the world reserve standard. Once they lost that status, that was it.

I concede that Bush was no brain child, but he was smart enough to not essentially seal our fate by spending us out of the #1 seat. I give it 2 years before we lose our status as reserve standard.

 

[Brendan]

The Republican party abhors the poor and downtrodden and seeks to persecute them at every turn.

How so? What I see in the GOP is the principle of Catholic subsidiary. What exactly is not Catholic about holding that The Church should be the primary provider of care to the poor?

That was how Christ Himself set it up at the beginning. He gave Peter (the Pope) the responsibility to “Feed my Sheep”, He did not give that responsibility to Ceasear nor the State.

In our current society we see exactly what St. John Chyrsostom predicted so many years ago.

Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone?

Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift.

Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first - and then they will joyfully share their wealth.

We see the wealthy are embittered and that the poor feel no gratitude. And that is moral harm.

 

[Jason_1977]

No, the Republican party wants to give everyone a chance to succeed. The Democratic party believes everyone should be held down to the lowest common denominator.

Where you get the idea that the Republican part “seeks to persecute them at every turn” is totally misinformation you have been given.

But we can truthfully say that the Democratic party seeks to persecute the unborn at every turn.

Amen, that’s a result of the left simply demonizing the other side which makes “listening” tougher. You could tell them to duck because something was about to strike their head & they wouldn’t because someone from the right told them. We have people on the right like that as well which is sad, but that’s the way of things. I don’t see it as misinformation, I see it as more of a character trait or flaw of the poster. Just have to be more patient w. them.

 

[vsedriver]

Wow how did I miss this thread? Well anyway I haven’t gone back thru the many pages. But I believe He certainly wouldn’t support much of the conservative ideology of cutting programs for the poor, the sick. Not raising taxes on the richest millionaires in budget crisis. Their tax cuts haven’t helped all that much with the job market anyway. The poor, the homeless, the hungry, the sick were a major focus of His Gospel. And while certainly individuals and faith based groups give, I don’t believe Jesus would turn away any help He could get if government offers a role too. Peace.

the government doesn’t help the poor. That is a myth. When the government stepped in to help the poor, the poor got poorer.

the government should not be in the business of running charities. It is the opposite of what charity is all about. Charity must be freely given but the government takes your money and redistributes it as the government sees fit not as the giver wishes.

 

[Riley08]

Amen, that’s a result of the left simply demonizing the other side which makes “listening” tougher. You could tell them to duck because something was about to strike their head & they wouldn’t because someone from the right told them. We have people on the right like that as well which is sad, but that’s the way of things. I don’t see it as misinformation, I see it as more of a character trait or flaw of the poster. Just have to be more patient w. them.

I’m actually not left or right but its interesting how those on the “right” go completely on the defensive and turn all conversations into personal attacks. I have a character trait or flaw? You only prove my point as to how uncharitable and unchristian you are in your post.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Excellent post!! It is exactly how I feel as well. Aside from the pro-life/abortion issue, I can’t imagine how Catholics can align themselves with the Republican party. The Republican party abhors the poor and downtrodden and seeks to persecute them at every turn.

I find the post absurd rather than excellent. Saying “I’m pro life and proudly voted for Obama”…

Obama is a marxist. He’s also a die hard pro-abortionist. He has expressed his scorn for Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular.

The disturbing and very, very sad thing is that the poster is not alone. The culture of death hasn’t arisen in America in spite of Catholics, it’s arisen in large part BECAUSE of them. As evidenced by the majority of Catholic who keep voting for politicians (mainly democrats, but also republicans) who maintain power of the abortion industry to slaughter innocent children.

Pax.

 

[Jason_1977]

Some of my more Catholic brothers and sisters have accused me of being liberal because I am pro union, pro gun control, pro publicly paid health care/dental care and pro welfare/ social security disability for those who need it. At the same time I believe abortion and birth control are immoral. I do NOT believe in moral relitivism. Yet some associate this stuff as being evil and resort labeling me a liberal which is meant to be derogatory.

Personally I believe that right wing conservatism is far worse then liberalism and far more dangerous because it is violent and has adopted a spirit of cruelty and murder. This has become self evident in just the past two years with the violent attack against a San Diego Congress woman and most recently the violent attacks in Norway. Even before congresswoman Gabrial Gifford, there were two other liberal politicians, one a judge and I think the other a congressman who were assisinated in just the past 2 years by right wing extemist. Embracing a moral relativism is sin against your own soul but embracing murder and cruelty destroys many lives and ruins the souls of many.

I read one poster here who said that he/or she grew up in a Facist society and as a result embraced communism but then found their rightful place in the Holy Catholic faith. They concluded that we should be guided by our faith. BRAVO!

The problem here is that too many Christians have replaced good and evil with liberal and conservatism. The good supports the common good of humanity while evil is oriented towards individualism, self indulgence, and greed. And it does so often by appearing as an angel of light. Again we should be guided by our Catholic faith which is Holy and Apostolic guided unto all truth by the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you all.

David

For starters, those very items you are “for” don’t make you a conservative. If you were to tell me that, I would and will make the conclusion in my mind that you are left of center. Left of center is a liberal, no matter how you slice it. I’m not sure how being for smaller government and fiscal responsibility w. a pinch of self reliance has to do with murder, but like some people say,“liberalism is a mental disorder” & I wouldn’t expect to have a sane conversation without someone getting angry because every lib. I talk to about things & sharing difference of opinion always leads to the lib. getting mad,bent out of shape, raising their voice & I always have to ask why they’re getting angry. So I won’t dispute or argue any of those points, save one. Murder? I am a bit confused.

Who do conservatives murder? I’ve not murdered anyone? My representatives have not murdered anyone. My representatives who vote the issues & my interests don’t have outcomes resulting in the murder of someone else, so I’d like to know what you mean precisely by murder?

PLEASE don’t tell me the death penalty because a state, w. a D or R in charge of the state allows a sentence to continue. PLEASE tell me what you mean by " conservatism is far worse then liberalism and far more dangerous because it is violent and has adopted a spirit of cruelty and murder". You see, I see liberalism as somewhat irresponsible as a mindset. I don’t see it as unAmerican, but at the very least irresponsible. I’d like to know just how violent I am and cruel I am please.

Secondly, I would like you to tell me the difference between a normal person w. a reasonably healthy upbringing & a LUNATIC that decides to kill people whether by gun or bomb & PLEASE tell me what LUNACY has to do with left or right of center. ( I already know that a nut will kill no matter their politics or which side of the fence they sit. ~I’m interested in your (name removed by moderator)ut though) I WOULD like to point out that the gun laws in Norway are pretty stringent & that a nut job can still kill many people if they so chose to. So much for gun control. The individualism part I think the left has more a grasp on than the right. Just check out the ACLU some time & Al Sharpton & his buddies. No compromise, no peace…we’ve heard it all before.

With respect to greed, you find it in capitalist, communist, socialist, WHATEVER economy, it’s there. Every nation under the sun is having a tough time economically. All 3 of those types of economies have been suffering & the one constant is greed. So, it is where ya look & where ya find it.

I do wish I knew what makes this line of thinking tick.