Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

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First of all, I’d be interested in seeing what Scriptural passages you have in mind.
I just mentioned one in an earlier post - We have an example in Nicodemus who was a wealthy pharisee and friend of Christ. We have an example in Job who was wealthy but referred to before his ordeal as a “righteous” man. There is the example of the wealthy employer who was generous throughout the day with his workers, about which the Lord referenced his right to dispense his money as he saw fit…there are more. These are off the top of my head. You cannot argue that having wealth is a sin. It is inconsistent on its face with the ten commandments which presuppose the right to property. We have to look at Scripture as an organic whole. If you nitpick this verse against that verse you are missing the big picture.

I am not arguing that wealth is virtuous. I am not a name-it and claim-it Christian. I am arguing that it is neither virtuous nor evil. It is an irrefutable argument.
 
Did you read my quotation? I know there are other life issues. But do they take 4,000 lives a day just in the US? Do they take as many as *1,300,000 *a year? Like I said, the ***most important ***issue at hand is abortion. It must be stopped.
Forgive me if this has been answered, but is there anything in the COCC that says “a Catholic may never vote for a candidate who is pro choice…” ? I have read wa too many OPINIONS of Bishops even that say that we need to check our conciences with regards to this -
God Bless
Rye
 
I am a conservative republican and I do not hear them speaking that way.
I don’t think you’re being honest with yourself here unless you simply do not listen to conservatives spoken today. Give me an example of a predominant conservative in the media today that you have never heard speaking contrary to the Churches social justice teachings and I guarantee you that I can dig up at least a dozen quotes any given person you provide which are contrary to Church teachings.
I think we misinterpret some of the things conservatives say.
No what they say is quite clear. Within 150 words they will say something that is slanderous rhetoric, evil, or it is in violation of Church teachings.
" I agree with most of what you stated. However, what I don’t agree with is your statement that so-called “conservatives …today seem to have committed themselves to the glorification of materials gain…”
That’s exactly what conservatism is all about today and it is rampant in the media. Conservatism is all about individualism, materialism, self indulgence, and a laissez faire economic and political system of government while rebelling against constitutionally elected leaders who oppose them. A direct violation of Romans 13:1-6 with a divine judgment attached. Again Sr Terese I challenge you to provide me with any given conservative in the media today and I guarantee I can dig up a dozen or more examples of direct quotes from that individual where they are unambiguously glorifying the accumulation of wealth absent of any virtue of temperance. I will further compare what they have said in the light of scripture and church teaching
From what I’ve heard, conservative republicans SUPPORT the ideals of the Founding Fathers in that property rights are essential to our economic progress.
The RIGHT to private property is NOT an absolute right Sr Terese and conservatives today teach that it is. That is why they believe taxation especially for the rich is forcibly taking away THEIR money and that somehow this constitutes MARXISM. When wealth and private property are believed to be an absolute right with no regard to social conditions and the common good then property rights becomes an economic monopoly where powerful corporations and the wealthy become the defacto BIG government. This is tyrannical unbridled liberalism and the EXACT type of economic system our for fathers fled from England for and fought against in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. Absolute property rights actually violates property rights and subsidiary because it transfers all power and authority of economics to powerful Corporations like Bank of America who will lend money for mortgages at a variable fixed rate to a family like the Morgan’s where mom works as a cashier making 10 dollars an hour at Wal-Mart and Dad works in the auto department making 11 dollars an hour. BofA qualifies them for a 150K home loan with an adjustable mortgage rate of 3.8% with a cap at 10.9% Historically adjustable mortgage rates stay low over the course of 10 or more years when you’re paying the vast majority of the interest and the Morgan’s know this and have been assured by the loan officer that trend will not likely change. The Morgan’s are very happy because they are now homeowners and have realized the American dream. Their mortgage payments including taxes and insurance are only 490 dollars a month which is 150 dollars less a month from the house they were renting. LIFE IS GOOD for the Morgan’s and their 3 small children. God has blessed them answering their prayers. They have their parish priest come over to bless the house. This is a wonderful pro life Catholic family. Four years goes by and the Morgan’s have always paid their mortgage payment early. They have done a great job with the house and both Mr. and Mrs. Morgan have been promoted to floor managers at Wal-Mart.

BofA their mortgage lender need to increase their market share value in order to become more super wealthy and powerful pleasing their shareholder. Deregulation has really helped them accomplish this goal by allowing them to sell their mortgage liens at a premium rate to foreign investors. So the highest bidders get the mortgage liens. China and Saudi Arabia both discovering the “beauty” of Capitalism win the bid and buy blocks of mortgage liens from BofA. China gets the Morgans mortgage lien and quickly starts to adjust the Morgans interest’s rates. Their mortgage payment rapidly rises. Each month their mortgage rises by 110 dollars. For the first few months the Morgans were able to absorb the rising cost. THEN within 6 months their mortgage more than doubles. They try to get help from BofA but George Bush is still president and tax cuts took away any mortgage assistant programs they may have received under the Clinton Administration. Soon their mortgage payment reaches 1845 a month and the Morgans are 6 months behind on their house payment with no help in sight. The corporation holding their mortgage lean confiscates their property and throws the Morgans out of their home. Right wing conservatives then blame the Morgans claiming they bought a home they knew they could not afford and it is lazy left wing liberal freeloaders like the Morgans who ruined the U.S economy and stuck these super rich victems with the bill.

IN CHRIST,
David
 
The pope himself said a Catholic could good conscience support the wars. He very specifically stated such support is not morally equivalent to supporting abortion
I just Googled “Pope Benedict and the the Iraq War.” There are many references to the condemnation of the Iraq War by both Pope Benedict XVI and Blessed John Paul II and in fact both Popes are on record as saying that there is no casus belli for this war!

The Popes, at least, are consistent- they are clearly both anti-abortion, and anti-war.
 
Often, but not always - do not forget that Nicodemus was a wealthy man and a good friend and disciple of Our Lord. It was he who donated the tomb for Christ’s body. Judging the state of one’s soul based on their net worth is no different than the Pharisees judging the adulterer - and in fact they had more cause to judge her than anyone has to judge the wealthy. Remember, thou shalt not covet is still a legitimate command, but one very easily forgotten by those who engage in class warfare.
“Class warfare?” LOL! I was waiting for someone to bring up that catch-phrase! It is used against anyone who has the temerity to point out that the income gap between rich and poor in America is at an all time high, and suggests that this may not be in the best interests of our democracy.

And in fact, Jesus readily forgave the adulteress, but condemned those who accumulate wealth. At least, that’s how it reads in my Bible- something about a rich man, a camel, and the eye of a needle. What is equivocal about that verse? How does the incidental mention of Nicodemus justify materialism, or in any way contradict Christ’s teachings on the immorality of excessive wealth?
 
Further, to favor the judgment of the Pharisees over the judgment of Jesus Christ denies the divine perfection of Our Lord. Jesus forgave the adulteress- how can we argue further that the Pharisee’s condemnation of her was justified? Jesus condemned excessive wealth- how can we argue further that excessive wealth is justifiable?
 
Though any man can call him self what he may, I do not believe any real Catholic can, in any way, support abortion or gay marriage with a democratic vote.
 
I just Googled “Pope Benedict and the the Iraq War.” There are many references to the condemnation of the Iraq War by both Pope Benedict XVI and Blessed John Paul II and in fact both Popes are on record as saying that there is no casus belli for this war!

The Popes, at least, are consistent- they are clearly both anti-abortion, and anti-war.
And cleary stated a Catholic MUSTvoppose the former but not the latter.
 
Well, what beliefs of theirs makes them “left wing”? If it is not Abortion, is it euthanasia, the death penalty, pro-homosexuality, or something else?

The “Liberal” agenda appears to encompass ALL of these (among many others contrary to the Faith). So if one believes in only a few select items, they view themselves as “leaning left”. But, in my opinion and in seeing the effects on several close to me, the road quickly leads to affirming all of the liberal agenda.
**What if one’s belief is, “The poor need help so we will take from the rich.” Isn’t that liberal?

For liberalism to work: All, All of society have to be angels and the ones that run society must be angles and gods; otherwise, hello Nazism, Facism, Communism etc and the poor will get poorer.

Liberlism is taking others money without their approval.

Read the great Catholic Frederic Bastiat’s “The Law”. Amazingly, I have protestant come up to me and tell me to read it not knowing it was a devout Catholic who wrote it.
**
 
**What if one’s belief is, “The poor need help so we will take from the rich.” Isn’t that liberal? **
The CEO salaries raise faster than GDP.
The workers wages raise slower than GDP.
This amounts to relative wealth transfer from the poor to the rich.
A state redistribution scheme is needed to counter this effect, and bring growth of both worker and CEO wages in line with GDP growth.

But a richer CEO will give generous contributions to the church. Which is why churches rarely openly condemn policy increasing income disparity.
 
I don’t think you’re being honest with yourself here unless you simply do not listen to conservatives spoken today. Give me an example of a predominant conservative in the media today that you have never heard speaking contrary to the Churches social justice teachings and I guarantee you that I can dig up at least a dozen quotes any given person you provide which are contrary to Church teachings.
Contrary to the Church’s official teachings or YOUR interpretation of the Church’s statements?
That’s exactly what conservatism is all about today and it is rampant in the media. Conservatism is all about individualism, materialism, self indulgence, and a laissez faire economic and political system of government while rebelling against constitutionally elected leaders who oppose them. A direct violation of Romans 13:1-6 with a divine judgment attached.
Prove it.
The RIGHT to private property is NOT an absolute right Sr Terese and conservatives today teach that it is. That is why they believe taxation especially for the rich is forcibly taking away THEIR money and that somehow this constitutes MARXISM.
Where has Sr. Terese or any conservative said that private property is an absolute right?
When wealth and private property are believed to be an absolute right with no regard to social conditions and the common good then property rights becomes an economic monopoly where powerful corporations and the wealthy become the defacto BIG government. This is tyrannical unbridled liberalism and the EXACT type of economic system our for fathers fled from England for and fought against in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812.
The Revolutionary War was fought because the King was restricting our civil liberties, instituting a big government, and disregarding the rights of the people. The War of 1812 was fought over British interference in American policy.
 
I just mentioned one in an earlier post - We have an example in Nicodemus who was a wealthy Pharisee and friend of Christ.
Susan, there is no place in scripture that tells us Nicodemus was a wealthy man, only that Nicodemus was a Pharisee, that he secretly believed Jesus teachings and that he helped bury Jesus. The Gospel of Matthew tells us Joseph a member of the Senhedrin was a rich man and had Jesus buried in a new tomb he apparently owned. The gospels don’t tell us anything about the virtues of Joseph, not even that he was a righteous man. So your argument here is very weak at best.
We have an example in Job who was wealthy but referred to before his ordeal as a “righteous” man.
This is the very best argument one can make about a wealthy man being righteous. HOWEVER, wealth in the time of Job was a measurement on how much livestock you owned, how filled your barns were with the harvested crop, and the size of your family. Job was an exception and not the rule. So in the light of you trying to justify the accumulation of wealth today to the detriment of the common good you really have no argument.
There is the example of the wealthy employer who was generous throughout the day with his workers, about which the Lord referenced his right to dispense his money as he saw fit…there are more. .
The word “generous” in association with this employer was his own opinion about himself and not God’s approval of how he treated the workers who worked all day long.
These are off the top of my head. You cannot argue that having wealth is a sin. It is inconsistent on its face with the ten commandments which presuppose the right to property. We have to look at Scripture as an organic whole. If you nitpick this verse against that verse you are missing the big picture. .
Well Susan it is you who are missing the bigger picture because you are trying to justify the economic philosophy of the GOP with scripture and your arguments are just plain nonsense. Although wealth itself is not a sin it is a temptation that most often leads people astray and down the road to perdition. Consider the words of the apostle Paul to Timothy:

*If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. *

Did you gear that Susan? The bible tells us to FLEE the pursuit of wealth because it causes people to WANDER FROM THE FAITH and that it is a TRAP that plunges people into RUIN AND DESTRUCTION. Moreover, the beginning of the passage tells us that the pursuit of wealth ROBS US OF THE TRUTH and corrupts our minds to in some form believe that godliness is a means to financial gain and that such a seduction further gives birth to an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind.

Jesus was approached by a very wealthy young man and who wanted to know what good thing he had to do in order to gain eternal life. The young man pointed out that he had always kept the commandments. Jesus told the young man to surrender all his wealth to those in need and then come follow HIM and he would have eternal life and treasures in heaven. But the young man was unwilling to make such an exchange and rejected Jesus offer. Jesus then turned to his disciples and explained that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

So while having wealth by itself is not evil, its influence on the heart and soul IS evil. Scripture teaches us that too much is given much more will be required. The wealth of the world belongs to God and the possessor of wealth is a steward of God’s property. The rich have been entrusted with riches in order to serve others. That is why Jesus told the rich young man to give all his wealth to the poor. He could not enter the Kingdom of God because the wealth God made him a steward of was meant to employ others. Because he did not do this people became poor and God demanded he give back the wealth to which it was intended.

The very same thing is true today. Ninety percent of this nations wealth is controlled by 10% of the population. That means the rich are stealing from the working class and the poor. Their wealth belongs to GOD who has entrusted them to employ others and pay them just wages and benefits.

The church teaches us that the rich have a duty to those who have needs and that they are required to practice the virtue of temperance and live modestly and not lavishly to the detriment of the common good.

In the Service of Christ and HIS Church,
David
 
And cleary stated a Catholic MUSTvoppose the former but not the latter.
Can you supply quotes from either of the last two Popes in which they stated it is okay for a Christian to be a warmonger?
 
The title of this thread should be; Can you be both a Catholic and a political ideologue?

The labels of modern American conservatism or liberalism seem incompatible to me with Catholicism, which I hold with higher importance than being a member of either party.

As for libertarians, I’m still shocked by Catholic friends who sound like Randians without knowing who Ayn Rand was.
 
[The very same thing is true today. Ninety percent of this nations wealth is controlled by 10% of the population. That means the rich are stealing from the working class and the poor. Their wealth belongs to GOD who has entrusted them to employ others and pay them just wages and benefits.
David, you realize that anyone who references the* factual*, ever-widening income gap in this country is guilty of fomenting class warfare, don’t you?😃

Of course, some will undoubtedly argue that even if there truly is a growing income gap in our nation, it can only be because the poor are lazy and unmotivated. After all, most of the current uber-wealthy started off with minimum wage jobs, and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, Horatio Alger-style!
[/QUOTE]
 
The Revolutionary War was fought because the King was restricting our civil liberties, instituting a big government, and disregarding the rights of the people.
YEP and today we have the EXACT situation where the Corporate elitist are both the King and BIG GOVERNMENT disregarding the rights of the working class by monopolizing the wealth of this nation and stealing just wages from the working class and transferring it to the defacto BIG GOVERNMENT, Corporate America! And after they have plundered the working class and squandered their pirated wealth they very nearly bankrupt America! FInally, for the icing on the cake, they rob tax payers for hundreds of billions of dollars and then turn around and reward failure and thievery by handing out million dollar bonuses to their royal court. Not even King James of Britain trampled on the rights of the American colonist this bad.

IN CHRIST,

David
 
David, you realize that anyone who references the* factual*, ever-widening income gap in this country is guilty of fomenting class warfare, don’t you?😃

Of course, some will undoubtedly argue that even if there truly is a growing income gap in our nation, it can only be because the poor are lazy and unmotivated. After all, most of the current uber-wealthy started off with minimum wage jobs, and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, Horatio Alger-style!
*He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich—both come to poverty–Proverbs 22:16

“So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, …says the LORD Almighty Malachi 3:5 *

Peace

David
 
Hi all~

I know that you cannot be both Catholic and pro-choice due to what we believe and practice as Catholics, but is it possible to be a liberal and still be a good Catholic? A lot of my extended family is left-wing, yet claim to be Catholic. My immediate family is fully conservative, however, and I have never doubted that. Is it that I don’t fully understand the term “liberal” and think that you must automatically be conservative if you’re Catholic?

Please help me understand and excuse my political ignorance… :o

~Therese
Ah Therese, beware.
Remember the words from Louis Carrol: ‘When I use a word, it means what I mean it to mean, nothing ore, and nothing less.’
‘Conservatives’ use the word ‘Liberal’ as a gratuitous insult.
Liberal actually has its roots in frredom, and in giving freedom.
Our Lord said: ‘The truth will make you free’.
He taught us how to be free in an imprisoned world. I guess that made Him a liberal.
G–d gave us the freedom to sin. I guess then G_d must be a liberal.
What is conservative? It has its roots in preserving tradition.
Actually Our Lord had some rough words about tradition.
If you mean political conservatism, then that seems to advocate honest money, but here is the second edge to that sword. Money is a tool, not a master in itself. It is only a simplified means of exchanging labour for food.
If we follow rules, too rigid to allow society to flourish, in order to protect the value of ‘saved’ money, then we are elevating money to be a principle of government. At that point, we are allowing the tool to rule the artisan, whereas the artisan should rule the tool. At this point, money becomes Mammon. Those who worship Mammon, are by definition, not Christians, for Our Lord said: ‘You cannot serve G_d and Mammon’.
So now, you have to look at the meaning of your words, and decide:
Which is nearest to Our Lord’s message? To free the enslaved, or to enslave the free.
 
*He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich—both come to poverty–Proverbs 22:16

“So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, …says the LORD Almighty Malachi 3:5 *

Peace

David
👍
The word, of the Lord.
Thanks be to God.
 
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