Can you be Catholic if you don't care about Salvation?

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Can you still be a Catholic if you don’t care about Salvation, Everlasting Life, being saved or getting into Heaven?

For that matter, do we have the option of whether we go to Heaven or not (assuming we’d otherwise be “saved”)?

I’m actually afraid of Heaven. The “Eternal Happiness” thing is a very kind offer, but I’m afraid I’d lose “me” if I was happy all the time. I like my pain, my angst, it’s part of who I am, my story, my being.

Maybe it’s a consequence of getting older and having experienced so many viewpoints, so many twists and turns… that I don’t really “want” much anymore, at least not for me.

Except for maybe innocence. I would SO adore to be innocent again! So if it’s all the same to God, I’d rather come back here again, messed up world and all, only with that sparkle of innocent wonder to appreciate His creativity once again 😉
 
Can you still be a Catholic if you don’t care about Salvation, Everlasting Life, being saved or getting into Heaven?

For that matter, do we have the option of whether we go to Heaven or not (assuming we’d otherwise be “saved”)?

I’m actually afraid of Heaven. The “Eternal Happiness” thing is a very kind offer, but I’m afraid I’d lose “me” if I was happy all the time. I like my pain, my angst, it’s part of who I am, my story, my being.

Maybe it’s a consequence of getting older and having experienced so many viewpoints, so many twists and turns… that I don’t really “want” much anymore, at least not for me.

Except for maybe innocence. I would SO adore to be innocent again! So if it’s all the same to God, I’d rather come back here again, messed up world and all, only with that sparkle of innocent wonder to appreciate His creativity once again 😉
I’m pretty sure that if pain is really something you need for fulfillment, then God will include difficulty in heaven for you of some type 🙂 Maybe He could, for example, put you in charge of something really stressful, like directing traffic leading up to the pearly gates.
 
In the end all creation is binary. One will either be inside Heaven and outside Heaven. The outside is unpleasant.
 
I’m pretty sure that if pain is really something you need for fulfillment, then God will include difficulty in heaven for you of some type 🙂 Maybe He could, for example, put you in charge of something really stressful, like directing traffic leading up to the pearly gates.
Oh that’s too funny, I was thinking almost exactly that on my drive home tonight. That I’d love a JOB in Heaven. Something to do, something challenging. Angel Assistant maybe, I’m really good at running errands and things.

I don’t mean to sound flippant, I really mean it. I do appreciate what Jesus did for us, opening up a pathway for us to Heaven through Him, it’s just that I’d so much rather help the process than participate in it.

But seriously, if I willingly reject a ticket to Heaven, can I still be considered christian? Assuming of course I still believe and do the required work while here?
 
The major part of believing in the Christian God is to have everlasting life with him- through being saved.

What is the point of considering yourself a Christian if you are not going to be saved?

to me thats like

Whats the point of having a car if you have no engine in it?
 
What is the point of considering yourself a Christian if you are not going to be saved?
Well, on another thread someone asked something like, “If you knew for sure you weren’t going to be Saved, would that change how you lived your life?”

What a great question, isn’t it? Would people abandon being Good Christians if the promised reward for their christianity was taken away?

It made me realize I just don’t care about Heaven. I’m not trying to sound all altruistic and noble, it’s just that the only thing that drives me is this obsession with Doing The Right Thing, which to me is the same as maintaining a connection to God. I’m terrified of losing that connection, that willingness and ability (flawed as it may be) to hear His whispers, His (not always so subtle lol) nudges.

That’s all I am. That’s “what” I am.

I realize in Heaven we’re as close to God as we can be, but being close isn’t the same as the joy of following Him, or trying to anyway. I don’t want a permanent vacation from doing that, I want to (always) be challenged to hear Him in ever more creative circumstances.
 
It made me realize I just don’t care about Heaven. I’m not trying to sound all altruistic and noble, it’s just that the only thing that drives me is this obsession with Doing The Right Thing, which to me is the same as maintaining a connection to God. I’m terrified of losing that connection, that willingness and ability (flawed as it may be) to hear His whispers, His (not always so subtle lol) nudges.
Just think of heaven (possibly via purgatory) as maintaining a connection to God once your soul leaves the body.

Losing that connection is hell. Keeping the connection is heaven. Actually, apart from being with God, we don’t know much more about heaven, so just focus on the God bit of it and trust that it’s where you’ll want to be.
 
Oh that’s too funny, I was thinking almost exactly that on my drive home tonight. That I’d love a JOB in Heaven. Something to do, something challenging. Angel Assistant maybe, I’m really good at running errands and things.
There might very well be work to do in heaven. Consider that in the garden of Eden, where God intended us to live (without dying) there was work to do:

*Genesis 2:15 The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it. *

Also, the book of revelation talks about the saints ruling with Christ in heaven. Ruling normally involves some work. Imagine how busy the saints are receiving all of our prayers!

But the work in Genesis was better somehow than the work we have today. One of the punishments that came along with being expelled from the garden was that work would from then on. (Genesis 3:19 “By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat”).
I don’t mean to sound flippant, I really mean it. I do appreciate what Jesus did for us, opening up a pathway for us to Heaven through Him, it’s just that I’d so much rather help the process than participate in it.

But seriously, if I willingly reject a ticket to Heaven, can I still be considered christian? Assuming of course I still believe and do the required work while here?
The best thing about heaven is getting to see God. Would you really give up being able to see God? I’m sure the answer is no: you must love God if you like being Christian. So I think the answer is no… you can’t be Christian if you don’t want to see God. But, I’m sure that heaven will be a place that is pleasant for you with your particular quirks and needs. But the answer isn’t to avoid heaven.
 
Would you really give up being able to see God?
Yes! I don’t want to see God because it’ll prove He exists, and I’ll lose my faith, my chance to Believe by choice, to follow Him by free will 😦

This, here, now, IS my “Heaven.” God is a total mystery, unseen, unknowable, which by it’s very nature has me perpetually reaching out to Him, and I hope Him to me, like that famous Michelangelo painting.

We love, we dance, we play, always wanting to see “What Happens Next.” Well I do at least.

But in Heaven, I’m afraid we’d become like the cliche’d “old married couple,” lol… knowing each other all too well, nothing new, no mystery… 😦
 
Yes! I don’t want to see God because it’ll prove He exists, and I’ll lose my faith, my chance to Believe by choice, to follow Him by free will 😦

This, here, now, IS my “Heaven.” God is a total mystery, unseen, unknowable, which by it’s very nature has me perpetually reaching out to Him, and I hope Him to me, like that famous Michelangelo painting.

We love, we dance, we play, always wanting to see “What Happens Next.” Well I do at least.

But in Heaven, I’m afraid we’d become like the cliche’d “old married couple,” lol… knowing each other all too well, nothing new, no mystery… 😦
What is your basis for what I consider a absurd claim? How could you know what heaven is like?
1Cor.2:9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,”
 
What is your basis for what I consider a absurd claim? How could you know what heaven is like?
It was meant kinda tongue-in-cheek 😉 My apologies if it was irreverent to tease like that.

No basis for my absurdity, I mentioned my fear, I don’t know what Heaven is like.

Although I have this suspicion that people’s lives aren’t lived entirely linear, and people who are going to be Saved are already in Heaven, AND here now, and that’s why they’re drawn to it in a kind of self-fulfilling feedback of Love 😉
 
mgreen77, you may want to ask a question about Heaven on the Eastern Catholicism forum.

I seem to recall reading on an old thread there that the Eastern view of Heaven is not as “static” as the common Western view. If that’s right, we’ll spend eternity penetrating ever more deeply into the mystery of God, whose wonders are, after all, infinite.

The depictions of Heaven in the work of Anglican (but beloved-of-Catholics) author C.S. Lewis seem to follow the same idea. In both The Last Battle and The Great Divorce, Lewis depicts characters encountering the very “edge” of Heaven and being invited to an eternity of moving further and further in. Obviously, Lewis was a writer and had no way of knowing what the real Heaven is like, but I enjoy his attempts.

Usagi
 
Yes! I don’t want to see God because it’ll prove He exists, and I’ll lose my faith, my chance to Believe by choice, to follow Him by free will 😦

This, here, now, IS my “Heaven.” God is a total mystery, unseen, unknowable, which by it’s very nature has me perpetually reaching out to Him, and I hope Him to me, like that famous Michelangelo painting.

We love, we dance, we play, always wanting to see “What Happens Next.” Well I do at least.

But in Heaven, I’m afraid we’d become like the cliche’d “old married couple,” lol… knowing each other all too well, nothing new, no mystery… 😦
Well… I have two comments:
  1. I’m sure that you would be happy in heaven, and God would make it so that it suits your requirements to be happy.2
  2. If your biggest problem is worrying that heaven will get boring, you’ve got it really good! 😃
 
It was meant kinda tongue-in-cheek 😉 My apologies if it was irreverent to tease like that.

No basis for my absurdity, I mentioned my fear, I don’t know what Heaven is like.
On what basis should we fear? Only because something is unknown? Can we not trust our loving God when He said that we cannot imagine the good things He has prepared for us, that heaven will be better than we can imagine?
Although I have this suspicion that people’s lives aren’t lived entirely linear, and people who are going to be Saved are already in Heaven, AND here now, and that’s why they’re drawn to it in a kind of self-fulfilling feedback of Love 😉
 
The following writing from Ron Rolheiser may or may not be relevant to this discussion, but I was reminded of it, especially the CS Lewis part:
SUBTLE FORMS OF IDOLATRY

2010-10-31

In my more reflective moments, I am sometimes forced to ask myself: Am I really interested in God or am I only interested in things about God? Am I more interested in teaching, speaking, and writing about God than I am in actually meeting God, one to one, in prayer and silence? Am I more interested in dealing with things about God and religion than I am in being hidden and silent in God’s presence?

The answers to those questions should be easier and more obvious than they are. On the surface, clearly, it would seem that I am interested in God: I try to pray regularly. I’m a priest who celebrates the Eucharist daily. I’m a theologian and writer who speaks and writes about God all the time. My entire life is spent dealing with the things of God; but, all of that notwithstanding, God isn’t necessarily the actual focus of these activities. The focus can easily be elsewhere.

We might all ask ourselves this question: In our explicit religious activities are we really interested in having a relationship with God and with Jesus, or, if we are honest, are we more interested in good liturgy, good theology, good spirituality, good religious experience, good prayer-quests, good pastoral practices, successful church programs, important moral causes, vital justice issues, and in helping to facilitate religious practice? It’s not that these things aren’t good, they are, but paradoxically they can be the very means by which we avoid having to face the deeper call for an intimate personal relationship with God.

C.S. Lewis is fond of describing our struggle here and he names it for what it often is: idolatry, a giving of ourselves over to something that is merely godly as opposed to a giving of ourselves over to God himself. Here’s how he describes this:

In his book, The Great Divorce, Lewis imagines ten scenes within which someone who has died is met on the other side by an “angel” who tries to coax the newly deceased person to let himself or herself be taken by the hand and led into heaven. The condition for entry into heaven in every instance is singular and simple: You simply have to trust the angel and let yourself be led!

In one of these scenes, Lewis pictures a conversation between one of these angels and a famous artist who has just died. The angel tries to convince the artist to come to heaven, describing to him the stunning beauty of heaven. Initially the artist is excited and eager, contemplating the great paintings he will be able to make, but he grows resistance and angry when he learns that there will be no need for him to paint this beauty once he is in heaven. Instead he will be meant simply to be inside of it and enjoy it. So he refuses to go to heaven, opting instead to remain where he can paint heaven rather than be inside it. He objects to the angel, protesting that, as an artist, art itself is an end, “paint for its own sake.” The angel replies: Ink and catgut and paint were necessary down there [during your earthly life], but they are also dangerous stimulants. Every poet and musician and artist, but for the grace of God, is drawn away from love of the thing he tells, to love of telling till, down in Deep Hell, they cannot be interested in God at all but only in what they say about Him. And … it doesn’t stop at being interested in paint, you know. They sink lower-become interested in their own personalities and then nothing but their own reputations.

What this angel says about poets and musicians and artists needs also to be said about theologians, spiritual writers, priests, bishops, ministers, deacons, liturgists, pastoral workers, social justice advocates, moral protesters of all kinds, retreat directors, spiritual directors, prayer group leaders, and even about those who are actively and eagerly seeking depth of experience in prayer. The danger is always that, like the artist who prefers and needs to paint beauty rather than simply become one with it, we too will make the religious activity we are doing an end in itself rather than keeping our real interest and focus on God.

And the irony is that religious activity, like art, can constitute one of the greater dangers for this kind of idolatry. It’s the gifted preacher, the great theologian, the brilliant liturgist, the hugely popular minister, and the marvelously skilled bishop or administrator who will have the biggest struggle. As Lewis puts it: It’s not out of bad mice or bad fleas you make demons, but out of bad archangels. The false religion of lust is baser than the false religion of mother-love or patriotism or art; but lust is less likely to be made into religion.

Every time we go to pray, go to minister, or go do to anything religious, it’s good to ask ourselves: Who and what, really, is this about?
 
The question should be changed to can you be a ‘Christian’ if you don’t care about salvation

Because this is a good question that can apply to protestants or any christian denomination
 
I do appreciate what Jesus did for us, opening up a pathway for us to Heaven through Him, it’s just that I’d so much rather help the process than participate in it.
Think of someone you love a lot, but who isn’t especially wise (a child, perhaps), and whose happiness and well-being you feel especially protective over. Then try to imagine that this person begins to make terrible, self-destructive choices (say, joining a gang), and he ends up stuck in a situation that will surely lead to his demise unless someone (you) steps in to save him. You do, giving him the opportunity to walk away if he so chooses, and you, sadly, die in the process.

But as it turns out, he, well, kinda likes it where he’s at. In fact, he insists that, though he knows your intentions were pure and that he appreciates your suffering and care, he’s just convinced you were wrong about his situation’s being so bad. (He may say it just grew on him to the point that, like a newly released prisoner struggling to settle back into society, a better life wouldn’t somehow be “better for him.”)

Does such a person sound like he truly does appreciate your sacrifice? Or like he respects your wisdom and guidance (just in general or even simply as above his own opinion)? I hope you’ll trust me when I say that I’m not trying to offend you (and that I hope I’ve misinterpreted somehow), but your post comes off as quite disrespectful and self-centered.
I’m actually afraid of Heaven. The “Eternal Happiness” thing is a very kind offer, but I’m afraid I’d lose “me” if I was happy all the time. I like my pain, my angst, it’s part of who I am, my story, my being.
Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He that loves father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loves son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. And he that takes not up his cross, and follows me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.. (Matthew 10:34-39)

You are obligated to want to be with God much more than you are obligated even to save another man’s soul. Love of Him is more important than love of anyone or anything else, yourself or your neighbor. Charity is primarily the highest virtue only with respect to Him, to the extent you love the Lord first and fully, and everyone else mediately, out of your willing what He wills.
But seriously, if I willingly reject a ticket to Heaven, can I still be considered christian?
A Christian follows Jesus. Christ will come back down here one more time, to judge the living and the dead. sure, but he ain’t stayin’ down here. A true Christian will willingly and gladly follow Him up to Heaven; he would rather spend eternity in a direct relationship with Him than with himself.
I realize in Heaven we’re as close to God as we can be, but being close isn’t the same as the joy of following Him, or trying to anyway. I don’t want a permanent vacation from doing that, I want to (always) be challenged to hear Him in ever more creative circumstances.
A lover yearns to be as close as possible to the beloved. Usually it’s only the naive “romantic” who needs the challenge, the conflict, or the “joyride,” which often is a good sign that his love is in an immature stage at best, like teenage infatuation, or vain thrill-seeking at worst.

The next quote is what really set off an alarm for me.
I don’t want to see God because it’ll prove He exists, and I’ll lose my faith, my chance to Believe by choice, to follow Him by free will.
If you do not want to see God, then you will not be forced to. I heartily advise you to work on wanting to want to see God, forever, so much so that you will not have any desire to avert your eyes, even for a second, toward yourself. These statements give me the impression that you exalt your own autonomy over His infinite Goodness.
This, here, now, IS my “Heaven.”
No, it isn’t. He’s trying to save us from that tempting notion. Your good, the destination of your happiness, like everyone else’s, has been pre-established by the Divine Mind. It’s spiritual union with God. If you prefer imperfect union to perfect union, then you do not sufficiently love Perfect Goodness. “Your heaven” is Heaven; it’s the same Heaven as everyone else’s. (Thank God! “Subjective” Heaven could get lonely.)
We love, we dance, we play, always wanting to see “What Happens Next.” Well I do at least.
But in Heaven, I’m afraid we’d become like the cliche’d “old married couple,” lol… knowing each other all too well, nothing new, no mystery…
Once again, I think you may unconsciously be too obsessed with the pleasure you get out of noble, joyful, yet still worldly duties. If it’s any consolation, I can assure you that you’ll never get too familiar or too knowledgeable of God. Nothing new? His actually infinite Being will eternally be a never-ending succession for you, always a potential infinity. That’s like thinking that if you counted for long enough you’d reach repeat-numbers. No mystery? Unless you are God, you’ll never fully understand God.

I may sound harsh, especially in a tongue-in-cheek thread, but I’m afraid the lightheartedness may be hiding potentially dangerous assumptions. I promise I’m only wanting to help you, which is why I don’t want you to dismiss my perhaps unpopular, (tentatively) judgmental take. I might add that presumption is just as sinful as despair – do not forget to fear the Lord while you love Him.
 
Heaven (and God for that matter) exists outside of time, in an eternal “now”. So it would be impossible ever to be bored of it; boredom requires time.

Likewise, I would not worry about “losing oneself” in Heaven; Catholicism does not teach that we all become merged in Heaven into some sort of “world-soul”. In fact, it would seem that we will have bodies in Heaven—Our Lady was assumed bodily into Heaven, after all. The OP mentions that her pains and troubles make her who she is; this is true. Remember that Christ appeared in His glorified body to the disciples, and He still had the wounds of the crucifixion on His hands and feet.

Also the idea of losing one’s free will upon seeing God needs some thinking out. The angels were/are obviously quite intimate with God, but Satan still rebelled against God; so there is obviously free will in Heaven.

OP, I don’t think it’s so much that you don’t care about Heaven, but rather that you may have misconstrued what it is. Take St. Augustine’s word for it—“Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee, O God.”
 
Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He that loves father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loves son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. And he that takes not up his cross, and follows me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.. (Matthew 10:34-39).
Would God really ask me to choose between Him and those I love and protect?

I’m sorry, but I’ll never consider them to be my enemy. And I’ll never take up a sword against anyone either.

I don’t understand the meaning of this passage 😦
 
Would God really ask me to choose between Him and those I love and protect?
No He won’t ask you to do this. If you think He has, I think you misunderstand the choices set before you.
I’m sorry, but I’ll never consider them to be my enemy. And I’ll never take up a sword against anyone either.

I don’t understand the meaning of this passage 😦
 
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