can you help me to find where it says....

[boatbearer]

BernadetteM: Great post!

Everyone else, besides the OP who seems to understand, BenedictGal is 100% correct. The rubrics do not state what is not allowed to be done, for the most part, but only what is supposed to be done! If you look hard enough, everything is covered. The Bishop is not allowed to go against the rubrics! Period. Do some Bishops not follow them? Yes. Is this allowed? No…

1.) No, not everything is covered by the rubrics. Not by a long shot. That’s a big reason why we have bishops. It sort of reminds me to the Scripture:

**John21:25 ** But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

2.) It’s simply not up to you to interpret what the rubrics allow and do not allow. It’s up to your local bishop. Failing to understand that will cause a great deal of confusion and anger. Further, there are some rubrics that your bishop has the authority to dispense with should he choose to. Certainly not all but some. Failing to understand that will also cause a great deal of confusion and anger. It’s the prime reason why people get upset when they feel the rubrics say one thing while their bishops direct the opposite.

 

[BernadetteM]

I never said other Catholics are ignorant. I said that they only know what they have been exposed to in the past 40 years. You can deny that there have been innovations within the Church over the past 40 years, but that does not make it so.

I think that I will follow Pope Benedict rather than you or some of the Bishops and priests in the Church today.

I don’t blame Catholics in the pew, as they know only what they have been taught, but if you can’t see the irreverence in many parishes I can’t convince you.

Many are from the protestant tradition, as I am a convert and many of the practices in Mass today come straight from their form of worship.

As I stated I will follow our Holy Father on how the liturgy should be celebrated. He has denied anyone from receiving the Holy Communion from him unless they are kneeling and receive on the tongue. He is our spiritual leader and from what I have read is trying to bring back what he feels is lacking in the Church today.

Your welcome to your opinions as from your posts if I recall correctly you have very strong opinions on what is right and seem to condemn other Catholics if they disagree with you. Even when they post documents proving that you are incorrect in your belief. I was not condemning others, just stating that what is going on in some parishes is all they know, not because of ignorance, but because this is what they have been taught.

We will have to wait and see what Pope Benedict does in the future. Once certain “traditions” have been established within praishes whether they are following the rubics or not it is difficult to force Bishops, priests and laity to change.

I didn’t convert to the Catholic Church to become more protestant than I was, I converted because the Church holds the true faith. At least no one has been able to change the doctrines held although many are trying.

You mentioned in a post about following the Bishop, well it appears today that many Bishops are not following the Holy Father. I would rather follow “Peter” than a Bishop or a priest who are not obedient to the Church.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[boatbearer]

I never said other Catholics are ignorant. I said that they only know what they have been exposed to in the past 40 years. You can deny that there have been innovations within the Church over the past 40 years, but that does not make it so.

I think that I will follow Pope Benedict rather than you or some of the Bishops and priests in the Church today.

I don’t blame Catholics in the pew, as they know only what they have been taught, but if you can’t see the irreverence in many parishes I can’t convince you.

Many are from the protestant tradition, as I am a convert and many of the practices in Mass today come straight from their form of worship.

As I stated I will follow our Holy Father on how the liturgy should be celebrated. He has denied anyone from receiving the Holy Communion from him unless they are kneeling and receive on the tongue. He is our spiritual leader and from what I have read is trying to bring back what he feels is lacking in the Church today.

Your welcome to your opinions as from your posts if I recall correctly you have very strong opinions on what is right and seem to condemn other Catholics if they disagree with you. Even when they post documents proving that you are incorrect in your belief. I was not condemning others, just stating that what is going on in some parishes is all they know, not because of ignorance, but because this is what they have been taught.

We will have to wait and see what Pope Benedict does in the future. Once certain “traditions” have been established within praishes whether they are following the rubics or not it is difficult to force Bishops, priests and laity to change.

I didn’t convert to the Catholic Church to become more protestant than I was, I converted because the Church holds the true faith. At least no one has been able to change the doctrines held although many are trying.

You mentioned in a post about following the Bishop, well it appears today that many Bishops are not following the Holy Father. I would rather follow “Peter” than a Bishop or a priest who are not obedient to the Church.

God Bless

Bernadette

Why the diatribe?

Are you guided by your bishop or your personal understanding of Church documents?

 

[BernadetteM]

I follow a Bishop who is in line with the Church and the Pope. Not my own interpretation. You might review some of your posts as it appears you follow your own interpretation or choose a Bishop who agrees with you.

I won’t argue the point anymore. I will leave it up to God the Holy Spirit to lead the Church in all Truth.

In fact first I follow Christ and His appointed successor here on earth.

You are free to choose any parish and worship anyway you feel comfortable with, I also have that choice.

I just see much division within the Church today and that reminds me of my former denomination which is sinking fast. The Church must be united and that is what the Pope is trying to do.

You appear to be new here, we do try to be charitable to one another whether we agree or not.

So in all charity I ask our Lord to bless you and give you peace.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[boatbearer]

I follow a Bishop who is in line with the Church and the Pope. Not my own interpretation. You might review some of your posts as it appears you follow your own interpretation or choose a Bishop who agrees with you.

I won’t argue the point anymore. I will leave it up to God the Holy Spirit to lead the Church in all Truth.

In fact first I follow Christ and His appointed successor here on earth.

You are free to choose any parish and worship anyway you feel comfortable with, I also have that choice.

I just see much division within the Church today and that reminds me of my former denomination which is sinking fast. The Church must be united and that is what the Pope is trying to do.

You appear to be new here, we do try to be charitable to one another whether we agree or not.

So in all charity I ask our Lord to bless you and give you peace.

God Bless

Bernadette

Based on what? What you have read? Do you understand yet?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I never said other Catholics are ignorant. I said that they only know what they have been exposed to in the past 40 years. You can deny that there have been innovations within the Church over the past 40 years, but that does not make it so.

I think that I will follow Pope Benedict rather than you or some of the Bishops and priests in the Church today.

I don’t blame Catholics in the pew, as they know only what they have been taught, but if you can’t see the irreverence in many parishes I can’t convince you.

Many are from the protestant tradition, as I am a convert and many of the practices in Mass today come straight from their form of worship.

As I stated I will follow our Holy Father on how the liturgy should be celebrated. He has denied anyone from receiving the Holy Communion from him unless they are kneeling and receive on the tongue. He is our spiritual leader and from what I have read is trying to bring back what he feels is lacking in the Church today.

Your welcome to your opinions as from your posts if I recall correctly you have very strong opinions on what is right and seem to condemn other Catholics if they disagree with you. Even when they post documents proving that you are incorrect in your belief. I was not condemning others, just stating that what is going on in some parishes is all they know, not because of ignorance, but because this is what they have been taught.

We will have to wait and see what Pope Benedict does in the future. Once certain “traditions” have been established within praishes whether they are following the rubics or not it is difficult to force Bishops, priests and laity to change.

I didn’t convert to the Catholic Church to become more protestant than I was, I converted because the Church holds the true faith. At least no one has been able to change the doctrines held although many are trying.

You mentioned in a post about following the Bishop, well it appears today that many Bishops are not following the Holy Father. I would rather follow “Peter” than a Bishop or a priest who are not obedient to the Church.

God Bless

Bernadette

:clapping::clapping:

you are correct he is the Bishop we should follow. by Tradition we should know who to follow, we just dont follow just anyone under the umbrella of bishop. for that we have many outthere calling themselves bishops. for example: there is self maded bishops in the protestants quarters, do you follow them? no.

 

[DeepeningFaith]

boatbearer: I simply would like to say one thing. From what I have gatherred from this thread, you seem to feel that the ways things are in your parish are approved by the Bishop. I doubt that to be the actual case. More often than not, the Bishop does not know fully what is going on in individual parishes. Also, if you brought the documents that we have given you to your Bishop and ask that even though these say Priest and no one else, can a lay person bring the Holy Eucharist to the tabernacle during Mass? He will almost undoubtedbly tell you no.

Also, in case you do not know how things work in a diocese. The Bishop almost always has a Office of Worship/Liturgy that oversees Liturgy and the way it is done. This is the Diocesean office you would have to go through.

Also, thank you for catching my typo. ALMOST everything is covered. However, I will state that everything that must happen at Mass is covered in the various documents. Not everything is covered in the different documents that should not be done. There are a lot of things that take place during Mass in parishes which were never approved by the Holy See. It is because of these issues, such as giving blessings in the communion line, which were never intended by the Holy See, that have caused stress to them because they now have to find a pastoral way telling people that the practice that has become so widespread is not allowed. But everything intended/envisioned by the Holy See as taking place during Mass is covered.

 

[Brendan]

1.) No, not everything is covered by the rubrics. Not by a long shot. That’s a big reason why we have bishops. It sort of reminds me to the Scripture:

But for things that ARE covered by rubrics ARE to be followed. Just like your quote from John, many things were not written down, but that which was not written down does not conflict with what WAS written. To follow unwritten rubrics that conflict with the written ones would be false and damaging.

2.) It’s simply not up to you to interpret what the rubrics allow and do not allow. It’s up to your local bishop.

Actually, no. If it is written, the bishop is to follow it as well. That is the one of the jobs of the bishop, the regula which Vatican II speaks of. It is not that the bishop creates their own law seperate from the Church as a whole, but that the bishop enforces what the Church has set down.

There are plenty of cases where the rubrics allow for variation, and those are clearly stated. But where there is no allowances for variation, there are no allowances.

 

[Brendan]

boatbearer: I simply would like to say one thing. From what I have gatherred from this thread, you seem to feel that the ways things are in your parish are approved by the Bishop. I doubt that to be the actual case.

Boat is from L.A. +Mahony is his bishop. …'nuff said.

 

[BernadetteM]

Boat is from L.A. +Mahony is his bishop. …'nuff said.

That will be changing soon, thank God. From what I have heard Archbishop Gomez is a very orthodox Bishop. I am sure that it will be a difficult job for him to bring back reverence within many of the parishes in the LA Archdiocese and also the other So. California ones. I think that Pope Benedict is trying to bring orthodoxy back into the liturgy.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[boatbearer]

boatbearer: I simply would like to say one thing. From what I have gatherred from this thread, you seem to feel that the ways things are in your parish are approved by the Bishop. I doubt that to be the actual case. More often than not, the Bishop does not know fully what is going on in individual parishes. Also, if you brought the documents that we have given you to your Bishop and ask that even though these say Priest and no one else, can a lay person bring the Holy Eucharist to the tabernacle during Mass? He will almost undoubtedbly tell you no.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. My parish is a pro-cathedral and at least liturgically, my bishop knows exactly what goes on there.

As far as “the documents that we have given” he would likely say that YOUR personal interpretation of them are not correct. That who can access the tabernacle is NOT limited to priests or deacons UNLESS the local ordinary says so for his diocese.

Also, in case you do not know how things work in a diocese. The Bishop almost always has a Office of Worship/Liturgy that oversees Liturgy and the way it is done. This is the Diocesean office you would have to go through.

Go through for what?

Also, thank you for catching my typo. ALMOST everything is covered. However, I will state that everything that must happen at Mass is covered in the various documents. Not everything is covered in the different documents that should not be done. There are a lot of things that take place during Mass in parishes which were never approved by the Holy See. It is because of these issues, such as giving blessings in the communion line, which were never intended by the Holy See, that have caused stress to them because they now have to find a pastoral way telling people that the practice that has become so widespread is not allowed. But everything intended/envisioned by the Holy See as taking place during Mass is covered.

Not even close. Want me to use some exceedingly practice examples? Where does it say that the church needs to be unlocked or the lights turned on? Where does it say that people should not prostrate themselves in the main isle to show “more reverence?”

It’s simply naive and divisive (and of course wrong) to rely on one’s own personal interpretation of Church documents rather than on one’s bishop. Some people get upset because their bishops and/or pastors “do not follow the rules” yet if you drill-down a bit it’s really that they don’t follow their personal interpretation of the rules, or that of someone else who also lacks the authority.

You brought-up coming forth during communion for a blessing. It’s actually encouraged in my diocese by our bishop because it’s not prohibited – and no I’m not really interested in hearing your interpretation of a document – I will rely on my bishop’s interpretation. Do you see how that works yet? Further, if it was prohibited I’m fairly certain a bishop could dispense with that prohibition locally – something many do not seem to understand.

 

[DeepeningFaith]

First, on the other things listed before, like I suggested, please go up to him with the documents and ask. See what he says.

Further, if it was prohibited I’m fairly certain a bishop could dispense with that prohibition locally – something many do not seem to understand.

Furthermore, are we back to this? If the Holy See says something is prohibitted, then that’s it. No Bishop is allowed to go against the Holy See without the proper steps in these instances. Are you saying that if the Holy See one day said that you MUST kneel to receive the Holy Eucharist, unless for a grave reason you are unable to kneel, that a local Bishop could decide that that rule does not have to be followed in his diocese? You would be very wrong. Can the Bishop allow a Priest to change the words of Baptism? No! And can the Bishop allow priests to change the Eucharistic Prayer so long as they leave the words of consecration alone? NO!!!

Just because a Bishop does something against the Holy See, that does not mean that it is allowed!

Pax

 

[benedictgal]

A person named “Cat” posted this on another thread and I thought it was worth repeating:

That posting is worth pondering. It’s profound yet it will still be lost on some. Do you follow your bishop or do you follow your personal interpretations (or those of others) of Church documents? Interpretations that carry absolutely no authority?

Wait! You say you follow the Pope (or some other high ranking prelate) but not your bishop? How could that actually be?

You have actually been disproven on this thread and some others, boatbearer. The bishop does not have carte blanche authority over the Mass. Do you not see that the numbers simply do not add up? Only those enumerated in the section that I posted are what the bishop can do. The section that you keep quoting isn’t even on there.

What you seem to not want to see is that obedience is a two-way street. Just as we are obligated to obey the bishops on faith and morals, they, too, take a vow of obedience to the Holy Father and those agents acting for him, the Holy See, which, in this case, is the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Only the Holy Father enjoys supreme and universal authority. The local ordinary, does not. In addition, disagreement does not equate to disobedience. Were that the case, people like St. Catherine of Sienna, who challenged the pope’s decision to stay in Avignon, would have been given a severe penalty.

Furthermore, if the instances of liturgical abuse were not so problematic, the Congregation for Divine Worship would not have issued RS (which was written, by the way, in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, headed at the time by the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger). Many of the letters that reach the CDWDS come from the laity who have legitimate complaints against their bishops and priests. The CDWDS takes these seriously, whether you choose to admit this or not. In fact, the CDWDS gives the letter-writer anonymity so that the faithful will not face undue repercussions for simply taking a courageous stand.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Once again, the discussion has devolved into who has authority and who doesn’t/what the documents say or don’t say. The answer has already been given–laity are not the primary persons who repose the Sacrament, but may be allowed under certain circumstances as set out in the rubrics. Discussion ended. Thread closed.