Can you pray for suffering to be reduced in Hell?

[DreadVandal]

ReformedCatholic:

But I thought they were in hell because they rejected God’s love? So you’re saying that it is more important to God to “show his wrath” than to be infinitely loving and forgiving? And is God motivated by “display”- how things look?

I don’t buy into the anthropomorphism of God that occurs in the Old Testament so OT quotes don’t refute the true understanding of God as Christ gave us.

One need not turn to the Old Testament, one can turn to St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans. Here I quote from chapter 9:13-14

13
As it is written: “I loved Jacob but hated Esau.” 5
14
6 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15
For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16
So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. 7
19
8 You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24
namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.

NAB

 

[TheRaiders]

the-3rd-parent:

I wrote this email to a friend. When I wrote it, I was really tired. I’m tired now so I’m not bothering to edit it. I will note that at one point I put her instead of His. Another point I typed is instead of it, and another point I typed His with a capital H when I wasn’t referring to God.​

I don’t think that there is any official teaching on if you pray for
someone in Hell that it might decrease there pain or not. The
official teaching is that Hell exists and that we run the risk of
going there.

But there has been a number of speculations on Hell. For instance,
Dante believed that there were levels to Hell, that the greater your
sins were, the more painful Hell would be. He even argued that
Purgatory was a part of Hell, the outer reaches of it of which people
could escape. However, this completely contradicts Catholic
understanding of Purgatory. As far as I’m aware, we do not believe
Purgatory is a part of Hell, granted I have met Catholics who do
believe such thing. I’m not sure if the Church has officially
condemned this belief as heresy or not.

Since I took Christian Moral Principles under Dr. Donahue-White my
viewpoints line up with a lot of which she taught me and the material
she presented including CS Lewis’ “The Great Divorce.” We have to
remember that Christ offers us more than Salvation. We are saved,
justified and redeemed. Granted, there is a problem in that we often
use the same word which have different meanings in different context
and sometimes that context isn’t clear and in which case our
understanding of things become rather unclear.

So the way I understand it, is that Christ died to save the entire
world. Our sins do condemn us to Hell, but God’s mercy is abundant
and it is because of His mercy that we are able to enter Heaven. Now
I realize I may sound a bit too much like a Protestant in saying this
but often different heresy simply take a truth and radicalize it,
isolating it from all other truths. Then when we try to correct that
heresy, we become so afraid of falling into that heresy that we create
one at the opposite extreeme. But basically because of Christ’s death
and ressurection, the world IS saved. No sin is unforgivable except
for the sin against the Holy Spirit, which basically is refusing God’s
mercy. However, unlike Protestants, we don’t believe that its simple
a matter of accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. We believe that
our hearts our very stubbern on this.

Visions from many religious people has Purgatory very similar to Hell, and possibly in it. Also, according to some of the visions, Some people have Purgatory as spirits here on earth.

 

[DreadVandal]

TheRaiders:

Visions from many religious people has Purgatory very similar to Hell, and possibly in it. Also, according to some of the visions, Some people have Purgatory as spirits here on earth.

Spirits on earth? You mean ghosts? This is why I tend not to believe in visions, even from very pious people. Although, you do get a similar idea in Plato’s “Phaedo.” Those souls who are too attached to the body must hang around the graveyard for another body to inhabit. It makes a certain amount of sense.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

At the same time, the OT and NT cannot contradict each other. Given the infinite, eternal nature of God, He doesn’t change His mind.

The OT and NT do contradict each other on some things, so by default I go with the NT. How can we know for sure that God doesn’t change His mind? He can do anything!

The best way I’ve heard hell explained is by means of a pathological liar. There are people who will lie about this or that in their lives or their past and if they do it so excessively, after a while, it *becomes *reality to them. Some may even develop mental conditions as they refuse to accept the true “reality” for the one they’ve created.

Sin is deception. The more and more people buy into the lie, the more and more painful the Truth is going to be and for some they cannot possibly accept it. Not because God won’t allow it, but because *they *won’t allow it. And since God is omnipresent, it is impossible, really, to be apart from God. Thus, the eternal fire by which they parish is really the infinite love of God on a heart that has refused to accept it just like the pain of a mental patient who cannot - nor will ever - accept reality.

I see what you’re getting at. But people who are truly mentally ill often cannot help or change their perceptions. Wouldn’t illness be a mitigating factor?

Furthemore, God’s judgement is eternal. If its possible for people in Hell to get into heaven, its possible for Satan as well. So, unless you’re willing to start praying for Satan…

Again, I’m not sure how we can be absolutely certain of things we don’t fully comprehend, such as His judgement and eternity.

I used to hear as a child “love the devil, hate his ways…” So I don’t know!

 

[thistle]

Catechism of the Catholic Church on Hell.

CCC 1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

CCC 1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

CCC 1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

thistle:

Catechism of the Catholic Church on Hell.

CCC 1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

I’m a little confused. A person “who does not love remains in death.” So they’re already dead? Or is this metaphorical?

The person who “hates his brother” is a murderer? So hate = murder then?

I agree with the parts about serving the poor and the little ones.

If we remain separated by our own free choice, then would we not have the choice to be reunited?

CCC 1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

Gehenna was the huge garbage dump outside Jerusalem where trash was burned for months at a time. He was again speaking metaphorically to make a point.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

I guess the key phrase here is “mortal sin.” It would be good to define this since there’s apparently so much riding on it. The chief punishment of hell is separation from God- I’ll buy that. Eternal? I dunno. Maybe for people like Stalin, Hitler, and child molesters. Interesting that even the Church puts “eternal fire” in quotes- this would suggest to me that the term not be taken literally especially when they just said the chief punishment was separation from God.

CCC 1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Right. Make use of freedom so you don’t go to hell.

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

Who’s getting married? Again, is it fire or the absence of God?

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”.

Great! Finally, there it is- "a willful turning away from God is necessary and persistence in it (turning away from God) until the end. But what end? The end of the person’s life? The end of time? It does not say.

 

[Ahimsa]

An evangelical Protestant perspective.

 

[m134e5]

Prayers do no good for a soul in hell. They have rejected God, and he is gone from them.

 

[solarwind23]

I think it’s very charitable to pray for those in hell. People here on earth reject God too, that doesn’t mean God rejects them. He can still give grace to those on earth who reject him. Who is to say that God has rejected people in hell? Isn’t God supposed to love all people?

 

[thistle]

ReformedCatholic:

thistle:

Catechism of the Catholic Church on Hell.

I’m a little confused. A person “who does not love remains in death.” So they’re already dead? Or is this metaphorical?

The person who “hates his brother” is a murderer? So hate = murder then?

I agree with the parts about serving the poor and the little ones.

If we remain separated by our own free choice, then would we not have the choice to be reunited?

Gehenna was the huge garbage dump outside Jerusalem where trash was burned for months at a time. He was again speaking metaphorically to make a point.

I guess the key phrase here is “mortal sin.” It would be good to define this since there’s apparently so much riding on it. The chief punishment of hell is separation from God- I’ll buy that. Eternal? I dunno. Maybe for people like Stalin, Hitler, and child molesters. Interesting that even the Church puts “eternal fire” in quotes- this would suggest to me that the term not be taken literally especially when they just said the chief punishment was separation from God.

Right. Make use of freedom so you don’t go to hell.

Who’s getting married? Again, is it fire or the absence of God?

Great! Finally, there it is- "a willful turning away from God is necessary and persistence in it (turning away from God) until the end. But what end? The end of the person’s life? The end of time? It does not say.

All the quoted parts in my previous post are from scripture. Either you don’t recognise that or you are just being sarcastic.

1 Jn 3:14-15. “Do not be amazed brothers if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. Whoever does not love remains in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.”

If you read all of 1 John 18 it is about the commandment Jesus gave to us “to love one another”. Love, even to the pojnt of self-sacrifice is the point of the commandment. Jesus talks about the story of Cain and Abel and the rivalry of two brothers, in a contrast of evil and righteousness where envy led to murder. For Christians proof of deliverance is love towards others, following the example of Christ, and this includes concrete acts of charity.

I would think CCC 1033 is clear. If we choose not not love God or each other and remain unrepentant until we die then we die in a state of mortal sin and conseqently are condemned to “remain in death”, in other words in Hell for eternity.
The free choice refers to when we are still alive. Right up to the time of our death we have a choice to accept or reject God’s love. After death we have no more freedom to choose. We simply face the Particular Judgement and if we are in mortal sin we are lost to Hell with no way out, ever.

CCC 1034 is simply re-enforcing the previous one. Unless we believe and live as Christ wants us to then we will be condemned at death to Hell.

What do you mean " who is getting married?"
Check out Matt 22. Its the parable of the wedding feast in which Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven to a wedding feast. Too long to type out but Jesus is saying “many are invited but few are chosen.”

To answer yet again the same question you asked in this thread several times, a person has only until the end of their life here on earth to choose God’s love or reject it. After death you have no choice. Your soul is judged immediately upon death and is either saved and goes to Heaven (maybe via Purgatory) or condemned to Hell for all eternity.

 

[DreadVandal]

solarwind23:

I think it’s very charitable to pray for those in hell. People here on earth reject God too, that doesn’t mean God rejects them. He can still give grace to those on earth who reject him. Who is to say that God has rejected people in hell? Isn’t God supposed to love all people?

Actually, there is no reason why God must love all people equally. God accept and reject whomever he chooses.

 

[mike182d]

ReformedCatholic:

The OT and NT do contradict each other on some things, so by default I go with the NT. How can we know for sure that God doesn’t change His mind? He can do anything!

I would be careful to say that the OT and NT condradict each other. In a certain sense, with Jesus Christ as the Son of God and our understanding of the Trinity, that concept contradicts how God is describe in the OT, but despite the conflict the two can be reconciled. In much the same way, most OT Scriptures detailing God’s judgement are not in complete contradiction. Conflict? Perhaps, but nothing that cannot be reconciled. Otherwise, the OT would cease to be considered Divine Revelation.

I see what you’re getting at. But people who are truly mentally ill often cannot help or change their perceptions. Wouldn’t illness be a mitigating factor?

Well, I suppose if they were born as such. But there are some who drive themselves to madness by their own doing and the choices they make. They would probably be a bit more culpable than those born with a mental issue.

Again, I’m not sure how we can be absolutely certain of things we don’t fully comprehend, such as His judgement and eternity.

Good. Glad to know that you are still human.

It is because of our fallibility that Divine Revelation becomes so important and even in the New Testament, Jesus says on many occassions that He will seperate the wheat from the chaff and there will be fallen souls who will be sent to where there will be “grinding and nashing of teeth.”

I used to hear as a child “love the devil, hate his ways…” So I don’t know!

To a certain degree, this is true. God still “loves” the devil because he still exists. If God ever ceased loving a thing it would cease to exist. But “loving” is not always the same as “liking.”

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

My understanding is that a soul chooses Hell. And, since he has full knowledge of what he is choosing, then he can’t change his mind. Just like the devils.

Therefore, even Hell is a mercy because God allows us to make our choices.

Heaven and Hell make more sense when you realize that it is the soul choosing–not so much a consignment.

However, God exists outside of time so he can apply our prayers to the lifetime or even the moment of death. So, we can pray for someone who is long dead. It is a worthy prayer when done in this way.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

solarwind23:

I think it’s very charitable to pray for those in hell. People here on earth reject God too, that doesn’t mean God rejects them. He can still give grace to those on earth who reject him. Who is to say that God has rejected people in hell? Isn’t God supposed to love all people?

Well said!

 

[ReformedCatholic]

To answer yet again the same question you asked in this thread several times, a person has only until the end of their life here on earth to choose God’s love or reject it. After death you have no choice. Your soul is judged immediately upon death and is either saved and goes to Heaven (maybe via Purgatory) or condemned to Hell for all eternity.

Great. That’s your opinion. I disagree. Sounds a bit too simplistic to me and maybe that makes it easier for some people to understand. Perhaps that’s why it was taught that way a thousand or more years ago, but I think we’ve arrived at a somewhat more enlightened state nowadays, for the most part.

My point was not to be sarcastic. I’m sure there are Biblical references for much of that. My point was that the CCC passages you provided are apparently subject to interpretation.

In one phrase it is expected to be taken literally, the next phrase figuratively. One statement is a metaphor and the next references a parable. Then you have another literal statement. Where is any semblance of consistency in the context or interpretation of those passages? How is anything so cut and dry as you present in your thesis?

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DreadVandal:

Actually, there is no reason why God must love all people equally. God accept and reject whomever he chooses.

So God’s love is conditional? If that’s the case, how can anyone be sure He will “accept” them? I didn’t think it was the practice of Christ to reject folks.

 

[DreadVandal]

ReformedCatholic:

So God’s love is conditional? If that’s the case, how can anyone be sure He will “accept” them? I didn’t think it was the practice of Christ to reject folks.

No one can be sure that they will be accepted. The Council of Trent defined that. And God’s salvific love is conditional. It is based on repentance and perseverence in faith. It is also conditional on God’s sovereign choice to bestow grace on some and withhold grace from others.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

I would be careful to say that the OT and NT condradict each other. In a certain sense, with Jesus Christ as the Son of God and our understanding of the Trinity, that concept contradicts how God is describe in the OT, but despite the conflict the two can be reconciled. In much the same way, most OT Scriptures detailing God’s judgement are not in complete contradiction. Conflict? Perhaps, but nothing that cannot be reconciled. Otherwise, the OT would cease to be considered Divine Revelation.

I see your point and I do wonder sometimes if it is Divine Revalation in the same way the NT is. I realize things can probably be reconciled or “explained away,” but if this gets too complex or unrealistic I get skeptical.

Well, I suppose if they were born as such. But there are some who drive themselves to madness by their own doing and the choices they make. They would probably be a bit more culpable than those born with a mental issue.

This is certainly true. Just because a person has a mental illness does not mean they are not necessarily accountable for their actions.

Good. Glad to know that you are still human.

LOL, on a good day.

It is because of our fallibility that Divine Revelation becomes so important and even in the New Testament, Jesus says on many occassions that He will seperate the wheat from the chaff and there will be fallen souls who will be sent to where there will be “grinding and nashing of teeth.”

I agree that there are certainly people who “deserve” hell, and hell for an eternity. My real question becomes: does a person who rejected God until the time of death, but did not commit “evil” during their lives, suffer hell for eternity?

To a certain degree, this is true. God still “loves” the devil because he still exists. If God ever ceased loving a thing it would cease to exist. But “loving” is not always the same as “liking.”

Good point.

 

[solarwind23]

DreadVandal:

Actually, there is no reason why God must love all people equally. God accept and reject whomever he chooses.

No, but a good God would love all unconditionally. A good God would do all he could to prevent his children’s eternal suffering. He doesn’t have to override their free will, but it is possible for them to be sustained the way people in mortal sin are sustained on earth.

There is no reason why hell should have more suffering than earth.

And that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be justice, but finite man cannot do infinite evil.

 

[Nicene]

The OT and NT do contradict each other on some things, so by default I go with the NT. How can we know for sure that God doesn’t change His mind? He can do anything!

I would suggest reading Psalms: The practice of the Liturgy of the Hours, Utrechts may be using the old Breviary, if they still practice it (particularly making use of Lectio Divina to immerse yourself in them) is spiritually beneficial. It covers the majority of Psalms in a month, with recognition of feasts and memorials to the Saints, common of Martyrs, common of Doctors, Bishops, Virgins etc.

Particular Psalms will answer your question about whether God changes his mind. Bear in mind that God does not live in linear time, He is in eternity.

But to the subject: From a catholic point of view one does not escape hell.

However I would be interested in hearing from our EO brothers. There is a story in Eastern Orthodoxy of a saint (I forget who it is), a priest who was abused by his superior, upon his death he was given a vision of him in hell. He decided to say Mass for him for a month, and he recieved further visions of him slowly rising out of hell with each Mass given on his behalf.

Any of our EO brothers remember this? If so, who was it and what is the validity of belief among the EO?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene