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DreadVandal
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Nicene, that all makes sense to me. Funny how the Bible does that!
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DreadVandal
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Well, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Calvin, and Leibniz would all claim that those condemned magnify God’s justice and those saved magnify God’s mercy and since all of God’s attributes are equal and united in one substance, that the universe never diminishes in goodness as long as God punishes evil. And some would argue that it is better to display all of God’s attributes, rather than only some, so it must be that God wills that some fall into sin and unrepentance so he can demonstrate his justice, his sovereignty, and his wrath toward evil; thereby being more fully expressed and glorified in the universe. A priori, we cannot rule out the possibility.
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ReformedCatholic
Guest
Yes, I do remember these days as well. I DO NOT miss them, that’s for sure. There is something very noble about it, but it is also very tragic for the love-er.Ah, now unrequited love! I can help you with that being a romantic myselfNot to get us too far off subject but unrequited love, in essence, is secret love not returned or acknowledged. Let me give you a historical example (dramatic examples abound):
The composer, Anton Bruckner, apparently loved some girl he was teaching but could never make it known. So he pined away and wrote symphonies apparently dedicated a work or two to her secretly. That is unrequited love. It is the bitter sweet pining away in secret for a love one can never have (I must stop at this point since it is bringing back uncomfortable memories of my junior year in high school, “Ah, the band drum major! Totally beautiful and such a commanding voice, “March!!” she would say. I wrote her a love letter after admiring her for months. She summoned me in private and told me of her boyfriend in the army. I was shattered. I spent what was likely 3 months without a smile. Only music and poetry and the foolish fantasies of adolescence.” Ah what mostly bitter (with just a tinge of sweet) memories.
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ReformedCatholic
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Good question. Is this the concept of “redemptive suffering?”
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DreadVandal
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I must confess that I do not follow the more popular take on God these days, that He is waiting around crying and begging for people to come to Him and is overwhelmed with sorrow when a sinner absolutely refuses to enter heaven. That is not the teaching of Scripture.
Scripture teaches that God knows his own, his elect. Out of the lump of humanity, whom He knew would fall into sin and rebellion, God decrees that some will receive the grace to persevere in true faith and be saved. God also permits the rest to freely continue in their sinfulness and unrepentance and decrees that they be reprobated to hell in order that his justice and sovereignty be made manifest.
Such is the teaching of Scripture, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, The Council of Trent, and most thomistic theologians and it is a fully acceptable theological view within the Church. God is sovereign and if someone goes to hell, then it is God’s will. There is nothing that happens that is not God’s will and ultimately not a source of pleasure to God and the saints. That does not mean that God directly predestines people to hell. But God has two decrees, one is his direct decree where he mercifully spares some (with no obligation to do so) and the other is his permissive decree, where he permits some to remain in unrepentance and justly punishes them. This God does with perfect, infinite, rationality unaffected by passions.
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ReformedCatholic
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This returns us to the concept that hell is the absence of God, not necessarily anything he created, per se, but something that exists in the absence of Him.
Some would say that life on Earth is actually a “hell.”
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Nicene
Guest
See Paul above and:
John 15:13: Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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DreadVandal
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I think that’s a modern watering down of hell. Hell is the abscence of God, if we mean by that the absence of divinizing life and grace. However, those who stand condemned before God are under His eternal and immediate wrath and the torment is beyond description. That is why the Scriptures use the image of unquenchable fire. Yes, hell is just as bad if not worse than being burned alive in fire forever without dying or passing out but experience undending excrutiating pain with the spiritual pain of eternal remorse. That is the teaching of Scripture and Tradition.
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thistle
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The Catholic Church is the Deposit of Faith. Its teachings with regard to faith and morals are without error. Only the Catholic Church can interpret Holy Scripture correctly.
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DreadVandal
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Of course, that’s why its unrequited and bittersweet
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ReformedCatholic
Guest
Remorse is a sign of a good conscience, guilt is a sign of feeling bad about yourself. Likewise, shame is something that we are made to feel by others. These things get all wadded up together into a mess of low self-esteem for a lot of people.
I would agree that the reason behind your insight and change of behavior would not matter, but I’d think a best case scenario is to ultimately return to Him out of love.
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ReformedCatholic
Guest
My reference was more in the sense that darkness is the absence of light. That sounds a like a lot of the OT talking, which I don’t give as much weight as the NT, personally. I’m sure it may be like that for a relatively few very evil people, but I simply don’t think the lives lived by most folks would merit that kind of eternal suffering.
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ReformedCatholic
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If you say so. Your reasoning suggests that only they are qualified to interpret their own teachings as well, which would make your interpretations of what you have presented invalid.
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DreadVandal
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Here’s a question for you: Do you think your life merits eternal suffering? I am quite convinced that my life merits eternal suffering when I look into my own heart. My heart, at its core and left to itself, is selfish and wretched and deserves nothing but punishment and despair. But what do you think? If you stood before God, could you claim something like, “Hey you know, I’m not perfect, but I’m not Hitler, so chastise me a bit and let me in?”
Something to consider.
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solarwind23
Guest
The first three were all faithful Christians, of course they would say things that justify the Christian world view.
What I know about Leibniz is that he invented the “monadology”, or something along those lines. I would appreciate if you quoted his beliefs about hell.
Infinite punishment for fininte sin is not justice. Punishment must fit the crime, or else it is excessive and cruel. Does someone who remarries after being abandoned or leaving an abusive spouse merit eternal torture in hell? That doesn’t sound like justice to me.
Genuine justice would be punishing evil proportionately to their offenses. i.e. if you murdered a billion people, you should experience a punishment of that caliber, but also with the intent to be taught a lesson, to realize the evil you did.
If your child stole a cookie and you cut his arm off and then threw him into the basement to be tortured, would that be justice or excessive punishmnet for a relatively minor offense?
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solarwind23
Guest
The God of scripture also ordered those who pick up sticks on a sabbath or curse their parents to be stoned. He indiscriminately killed people, including children and the unborn with the flood, sent plagues upon the egyptian population and killed the first born just to show Pharaoh who’s boss, allowed the enslavement of non-Jews, condoned polygamy etc. I guess you’re right, this God could very well send abandoned people who remarry straight into hell.
If that’s God, that’s fine, but I wouldn’t say he’s worthy of worship. Fear, maybe. I can see why people would flock to such a God out of a fear of punishment, but I don’t see how such a God could be loved and truly appreciated/worshiped.
It may very well be God’s will that someone who disobeys him go to burn in hell forever, and it could very well be true. The suffering found in the world, the fundamental cruely of nature, of animals etc. would be more consistent with this kind of a God than with a loving and compassionate one.
But you will never persuade me to worship this God. Fear, yes. Maybe even obey to avoid punishment. But love? No way.
And if the saints enjoy watching people suffer in hell, well, then as far as I’m concerned they’re no better than sadists who torture people and like it here on earth. I wouldn’t want to spend eternity with that gang.
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ReformedCatholic
Guest
No, by no means does my life (or the life of anyone I know) merit ETERNAL suffering. When I look into my heart, I see someone who wants to love and do good. Am I perfect? By no means. Do I screw up? Of course. Does this make me inherently wretched? No way.
We’re all entitled to some suffering for various reasons, I’m sure, but I’ve gotten plenty of that here on Earth. And I’ve learned from it. But I just don’t buy into the thinking that we’re all depraved and nasty and worthless and all that. How can we be if God created us, and He created us in His image, etc?
There’s got to be some range between perfect and Hitler!
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DreadVandal
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I think that’s a very reasonable and traditional criticism. One response is that since the sin is against an infinite being, then the sin is infinite in magnitude (since humanity owes its absolute dependence to God). Leibniz doesn’t talk too much about hell per se but he does argue that this must be the best of all possible worlds. It doesn’t get any better. And this means, according to Leibniz, that a world with evil in it is better than a world without evil and I am inclined to agree. His argument, in a nutshell, is that the actions of a perfect Being are always perfect; therefore, what He creates is as best as it can possible be (if it weren’t then God would be limited in that he could have made something better). Now here is the really intersting claim. Leibniz claims that, in a sense, evil is necessary in order to distinguish the universe from God. If the universe really were perfect, it would be God. So in order to have an effect that was distinguishable from the cause (God) the universe would have to be contingent (bound up with nonbeing) and therefore there would have to be some way in which nonbeing was manifest. But evil is a mode of nonbeing. Therefore God wills and decrees that evil exists. But God wills evil in such a way (through permission) that he maximizes the amount of good that can be brought out of that evil. In other words, God looks at all possible universes that could be created and He brings into existence the one that achieves the greatest amount of good. Such is not far from the implicit views of Aquinas I think.
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ReformedCatholic
Guest
Sounds like a “law of karma” would solve this problem! After all you do “reap what you sow.”
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solarwind23
Guest
If you think your life merits eternal suffering I have to conclude that you’re either a serial killer + child molester + torturer + everything evil I can possibly conceive of.
Frankly, even if you are all that, I don’t think you merit infinite punishment. Maybe A LOT of punishment, but not infinity.
If you truly feel that way, and aren’t just saying so for the sake of the argument, then I think you have deep psychological issues that need to be resolved. A normal human being should not see himself as wretched/evil and deserving of nothing but punishment and despair.
If I stood before a good God, I would not be afraid. I would tell this God that I lived my life doing my best not to hurt others and indeed to help them, I would tell that God that since I wasn’t sure he existed due to a lack of evidence I made the best of this life and worked to help others make the best of theirs.
If it turned out that I was sinning and God was really good, I would tell him I was willing to learn, to undrestand, and to change my position.
If I came before a God who was throwing people into hell for things like birth control, remarrying after having been abandoned by spouse etc. I wouldn’t even say anything but turn and go to hell along with most human beings and leave the saints to enjoy watching us suffer.
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