Can you pray for suffering to be reduced in Hell?

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solarwind23:
Oh, come on. Religious people have been committing atrocities through the beginning of time. Including some high Church officials during the time of the Inquisition.

stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html About Hitler’s beliefs:

I know many atheists and agnostics, all of them good people. They really live no differently from the average Christian folk I know. The most moral person I know is an agnostic with no belief in any kind of religion.

The Soviet system which is generally said to be atheistic isn’t really. Communism as it was in the Soviet Union is itself a kind of a religion. I should know because my own parents grew up in there and were indoctrinated into it from childhood (though they rejected it). It required faith, obedience, and self-sacrifice. There was no supernatural in it, but so what. I think they wiped out religion to have all the power for themsleves.

The Catholic Inquisition wiped out opposing views as well. Censored, burned books, punished people for heresy (i…e thought crimes). So what’s really the difference?
I note you forgot to mention the parts where Hitler actually said Christianity was the scourge of manking and so on. Selective quoting doesn’t help, it displays an agenda.

And as I said there are those who will profess to be Christian, and scripture tells us there will be these, who really aren’t, who in fact are evil. But as far as the inquisition instead of projecting a 20th century moralizing onto it immerse yourself into the century. People were afraid, most of europe was decimated by the plague. Fears were hightened.

Is that any different from what is occuring now? Do you really think Osama bin Laden believes in God? Or is he using religion, as has been done in the past, and has been done in this country, to achieve a goal. Hitler did the same, I would suggest reading everything he ever said regarding religion instead of snippets. That’s just pandering.

If G. W. Bush had said well we are going into the middle east to control the region, oil, economy and peoples etc, and not said the “axis of evil” would people have readily gone in there? Osama calls us the “evil empire” to attract his following.

What is bieng sold is “God is on our side” which corrupts the meaning of religion. The true question has always been not “Is god on my side?” but “Am I on Gods side?”

What is sold is “Your lot in life sucks because of (pick a target)” and people buy it.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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Nicene:
Is that any different from what is occuring now? Do you really think Osama bin Laden believes in God? Or is he using religion, as has been done in the past, and has been done in this country, to achieve a goal. Hitler did the same, I would suggest reading everything he ever said regarding religion instead of snippets. That’s just pandering.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Bin Laden believed in God. He is not exactly gaining a lot by being a terrorist. Wasn’t he born into one of the richest families? He could have been very powerful and successful. Instead he’s spending his money promiting a belief system that’s caused him to be on the run from various authorities who want to capture/kill him. What he’s doing is pretty consistent with conservative Islamic teaching/ literal interpretation of Quran.

Maybe authoritative religion in general was invented by people who wanted control over others. Any system that’s about obedience to an earthly authority whether it be the imams/mullahs/Islamic State/Catholic Church smacks of that to me.

The purest religion is what exists between a free individual and God. Whether God actually exists is another question, but whenever obedience is brought into the equation so is power. And we both know how people throughout history have desired power over others.
 
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Nicene:
And there you have the gist of it. What or who made you self aware? What or who gave you the ability to distinquish right from wrong?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
I don’t know how consciousness works, maybe one day I will.

As far as right and wrong goes, my intellect, things I have learned. Morality has varied throughout time. Back in the Old Testament days there was polygamy, slavery, stonings for various offenses, even in Christ’s time and the Church’s time there was slavery, dreadful treatment of women in society etc.

Gradually over time human beings have learned better, have come up with more compassionate and evolved moral codes. Now we forbid slavery, consider women equal to men, value freedom of speech and thought and democracy etc.

My morality is based on my own thoughts and what I have learned from culture. The fundamental moral principle I operate under is compassion/empathy/love of fellow man. What changes is my understanding of what’s best for people and how best to protect each other.
 
Christianity seems unique with its notion of infinite punishment.
I think the concept of karma makes the most sense to me. That coupled with the idea of reincarnation would certainly help make sense out of otherwise unexplainable suffering in this world.

There’s obviously very little to indicate either is supported in the Bible, although I have heard tales that references to such things at one time did exist, but were taken out for fear that people would not be “obedient” in this life, thinking they would be able to live others or something like that. I don’t have any sources for this, just something I heard or read years ago.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
I think the concept of karma makes the most sense to me. That coupled with the idea of reincarnation would certainly help make sense out of otherwise unexplainable suffering in this world.
I am very fond of karma/reincarnation. If you live an evil life you get reincarnated into a lower state and bear the effects of what you’ve done. But you can always choose to improve, become a good person, and atone. It is an endless cycle with really good people getting out by reaching nirvana or whatever.

My mom this that the idea of hell is a waste of souls. I agree with it.
There’s obviously very little to indicate either is supported in the Bible, although I have heard tales that references to such things at one time did exist, but were taken out for fear that people would not be “obedient” in this life, thinking they would be able to live others or something like that. I don’t have any sources for this, just something I heard or read years ago.
Who knows. There were many early Christian writings that dind’t make it into the official Bible. At some point Church officials got together, went through the books, decided which they wanted in and which they didn’t, and did away with the rest.

Do you trust that they did it right? I think there was a man, Origen maybe, who thought that hell would not last forever. The Church condemned that of course, but so what!

Personally I think it’s better to judge ideas on their merit than on who says them. What is “the Church” anyway, a bunch of men who think about things, read, discuss, and later come to a decision.

It’s not like they have a history of profound englightened behavior either. Didn’t they allow slavery for quite a while? Didn’t they completely support social structures that restricted women’s freedom? Didn’t they support the Inquisition at one point in one form or another?

What I see in the Church are good men trying to do their best, bad men seeking power, average men, etc. But above all human beings creating a system that has grown and developed over the years. They have some good ideas, they have some bad ideas.
 
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solarwind23:
I wouldn’t be surprised if Bin Laden believed in God. He is not exactly gaining a lot by being a terrorist. Wasn’t he born into one of the richest families? He could have been very powerful and successful. Instead he’s spending his money promiting a belief system that’s caused him to be on the run from various authorities who want to capture/kill him. What he’s doing is pretty consistent with conservative Islamic teaching/ literal interpretation of Quran.
You forgot about ego. Those who follow him adore him, just as with Hitler. He has Godlike status and thinks of himself as one.
Maybe authoritative religion in general was invented by people who wanted control over others. Any system that’s about obedience to an earthly authority whether it be the imams/mullahs/Islamic State/Catholic Church smacks of that to me.
Again back to the authority is bad thing, it is all about what “I” think is best. Each man his own God, regardless of if that differs from another man (Lion and antelope, both are athiests) Well there are 33 evangelical advisors to Bush, what does that say about the authority of our country? Islam doesn’t have a heirarchy at all, it is exactly like protestantism. In the muslim world each man interprets the Koran for himself, there is no governing body.
The purest religion is what exists between a free individual and God. Whether God actually exists is another question, but whenever obedience is brought into the equation so is power. And we both know how people throughout history have desired power over others.
Power is the corrupter, not an organization. The true person serves power in the highest position, not letting power serve him. The athiest has been the grossest abuser of power in history. And they do it individually with no regard to a moral authority to answer to. The whole “it’s all about me” syndrome encourages disunity. I have yet to meet an altruistic athiest. You can always tell because the language used is always “me” “I” Submission to God or authority isn’t a good thing, It infringes on “my” rights. (athiest antelope)

Should we get rid of the United States and governments altogether, sinse organized power corrupts under your philosophy, with instead each person doing as he wills? That seems not to have worked out so well in the past. It certainly hasn’t worked out too well in religion.

Division isn’t an admirable trait, most of the time cloaking itself under individualism. It’s like the cogs in the wheel of a clock. If each cog could do what it wants then the clock wouldn’t run, it would be dead. When they work in unity? Whalah.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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Nicene:
Again back to the authority is bad thing, it is all about what “I” think is best. Each man his own God, regardless of if that differs from another man (Lion and antelope, both are athiests)
What’s the alternative, what the pope thinks is best? I don’t see the holiness in this at all. All I see is a hiearchy that decreed obedience to them virtuous. People who are obedient almost seem empty, they adopt the beliefs of those above them, they do what those above them tell them to do. To me this almost seems to degrade the dignity of a person, the originality he could bring to human society etc. Ever watch Star Trek, if so I got one word for you: Borg.
 
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solarwind23:
What’s the alternative, what the pope thinks is best? I don’t see the holiness in this at all. All I see is a hiearchy that decreed obedience to them virtuous. People who are obedient almost seem empty, they adopt the beliefs of those above them, they do what those above them tell them to do. To me this almost seems to degrade the dignity of a person, the originality he could bring to human society etc. Ever watch Star Trek, if so I got one word for you: Borg.
First, the Pope doesn’t get to act individually no matter what you may have been taught. He may be able to impose sanctions within the church individually but he doesn’t get to go off the cuff and declare whatever he pleases. That’s a falacy that’s been sold. He is there to serve. Have there been those who have abused their office? Yep, but few and far between over 2 millenia.

Secondly you may consider me empty that’s your perogative. However you have just taken out of the equation that these people are submitting, like Christ and his mother, under their own free will. It is better to work together (especially for Gods kingdom, serving mankind) than cogs going off in all different directions. While I appreciate that you think we are all drones I think it is a fair assesment that the charity throughout the history of the church i.e. taking care of the poor, prison etc. as well as higher education speaks for itself.

The moral good that the church does and has done throughout the world, far outweighs any of the bad things certain people and times have done. Was this to be expected by Christ? Yep it sure was, the parable of the sower. Christ also tells us they are going to be held more accountable (judged harsher) than the average Joe.

What governing body (theological or otherwise) has lasted 2 thousand years. That in itself is a miracle. Not because of the church, but in spite of her because of Christ’s promise. That is heavenly protection, not becuase of the bad things that have happened, but because of all the good the church has done throughout the centuries, contrary to all the selective propoganda thrown our way.

The message is there, the message hasn’t changed. Regardless of (and in spite of those) inside and outside the church who have tried to derail her. (Again Parable of the sower: wheat and weeds and the sower of the weeds, assaults from inside and out)

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Infinite punishment for fininte sin is not justice. Punishment must fit the crime, or else it is excessive and cruel. Does someone who remarries after being abandoned or leaving an abusive spouse merit eternal torture in hell? That doesn’t sound like justice to me.
Genuine justice would be punishing evil proportionately to their offenses. i.e. if you murdered a billion people, you should experience a punishment of that caliber, but also with the intent to be taught a lesson, to realize the evil you did.
If your child stole a cookie and you cut his arm off and then threw him into the basement to be tortured, would that be justice or excessive punishmnet for a relatively minor offense?
Good points.
 
As far as the borg comment, you have just displayed what I mentioned ealier, the athiestic Lion. So much for compassion and working together to help others /shrug.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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solarwind23:
The God of scripture also ordered those who pick up sticks on a sabbath or curse their parents to be stoned. He indiscriminately killed people, including children and the unborn with the flood, sent plagues upon the egyptian population and killed the first born just to show Pharaoh who’s boss, allowed the enslavement of non-Jews, condoned polygamy etc. I guess you’re right, this God could very well send abandoned people who remarry straight into hell.

If that’s God, that’s fine, but I wouldn’t say he’s worthy of worship. Fear, maybe. I can see why people would flock to such a God out of a fear of punishment, but I don’t see how such a God could be loved and truly appreciated/worshiped.

It may very well be God’s will that someone who disobeys him go to burn in hell forever, and it could very well be true. The suffering found in the world, the fundamental cruely of nature, of animals etc. would be more consistent with this kind of a God than with a loving and compassionate one.

But you will never persuade me to worship this God. Fear, yes. Maybe even obey to avoid punishment. But love? No way.

And if the saints enjoy watching people suffer in hell, well, then as far as I’m concerned they’re no better than sadists who torture people and like it here on earth. I wouldn’t want to spend eternity with that gang.
This is the problem I have with the OT. This is where most of this perception of God comes from.

As for the saints enjoying others’ suffering, I agree that would be contrary to Christ’s teachings, from my point of view.
 
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DreadVandal:
I would submit to you that this is the different between the biblical view of humanity and our modern view. According to Scripture, there is not one human being that does not, from the moment of conception, deserve eternal torment in hell. It doesn’t matter how good we are. The fact that we do not measure up to God’s holiness means that without Christ’s sacrifice on the cross to atone for our sins, we cannot pay God what we owe. What we owe is infinite and so God, in his justice punishes with an infinite punishment all who are unredeemed no matter how seemingly good they are.
But how does that make any sense, really? Why should human beings inherently deserve to be tortured forever? If we’re so rotten, why create us in the first place?
 
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DreadVandal:
Actually, the NT says that “All have sinned…” Read Romans carefully. St. Paul is clear that everyone deserves damnation. God has consigned all to sin so that he can consign mercy upon all. This is to show that salvation is solely through mercy and not because of anything we’ve done.

Now, traditionally, there are different punishments in hell so that those who died young committing the least of sins would have the lightest punishments. Those (such as evil Popes and evil Bishops) would have the most severe punishments in the most bottom depths of hell.
I agree, all have sinned. My concept of “sin” and the origin of its definition is that its origin suggest it means “error” or “to miss the mark.” So yes, we have all made errors and bad choices, and we all have “missed the mark” on more than one occasion I’m sure.

I’d have to know more about the context of what Paul was talking about to concede that, but I have issues with some of his work anyway.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
But how does that make any sense, really? Why should human beings inherently deserve to be tortured forever? If we’re so rotten, why create us in the first place?
God has no desire to torture anyone. Predestination presupposes such a system. It makes God into a kid with a chemistry set holding a rat over a flame. Enter free will. We choose hell over heaven. God in his justice lets us have which we want. You have a lifetime to choose it in. In choosing to do evil over good we show contempt for God and his creation. In choosing good over evil, we show the love we have for God by loving our fellow man. (That doesn’t necessarily mean hugs and kisses, you can love someone without liking them too much)

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
VENIAL sins also sin against an infinite being. But you can sin venially all your life and still go to heaven. So clearly, not all sins against an infinite being merit infinite punishment unless repented. You don’t need to repent from venial sins.
This is something I don’t understand. A “venial” sin is not so bad, but a “mortal” sin is. Who determines what consists what?

What makes a sin a “mortal” sin? My thinking is that it is an act or behavior that harms another. Murder, physical, sexual, emotional abuse, etc. I can buy those as mortal sins. Anything less I tend to think as venial. What does “venial” mean, anyway?
 
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DreadVandal:
Me too. And St. Francis would be the first to think of himself as deserving damnation but being saved by grace and mercy. But here’s the thing. Once I recognize the wickedness that lies deep within my heart, often unconsciously, then I realize that had circumstances been slightly different, I would be on death row and some death row person would be teaching philosophy at a university (and suffering from neurosis 😛 ). The evil within the most evil is also within me and so I plead for mercy and fight against it and I know too that I have no grounds for boasting over the criminal, the public sinner, the wicked. Does that mean I condone their evil? No, that at all. But it means that I do not view myself as being interiorly or spiritually superior. But I pray, as we do in our Liturgy every Sunday "I believe Lord and confess that you are the Son of God, come to save sinners, Of Whom I am the greatest
I think I understand what you’re saying here a little better. Do we each have the inherent “possibility” of being evil? I would agree. It would be a combination of genetics, development, and environment that would play a big part in that.

I can also concede that we would all likely “be” in damnation (essentially, in absence of God) if we did not have His Grace.

I also agree that we should not view ourselves as superior to anyone else- “there I go but for the Grace of God” and so forth. But this would suggest that the saints in heaven should not be enjoying the suffering of those in hell.
 
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solarwind23:
Follow where your conscience leads you. Meditate on it, think deeply about it, and do what you truly believe is good and right. Free yourself as much as possible from the fear of a hell that may or may not exist, or the eternal pleasures of heaven that may or may not exist.

If God exists, I think he keeps himself hidden from us for a reason. Maybe it’s to see us develop, to create a just and good moral system here on earth. Maybe what he wants to see is us standing up on our own two feet, becoming independent, and doing our best even if not always getting it right.

You can’t go wrong if you do what you truly think is good and right. If there is a God who doesn’t reward that and punishes you for not obeying this creed or another, then to hell with that God!

I am very put off by Christian saints because of their apparent rejection of “the world” and “the flesh.” As I see it, if there is a God he put is in THE WORLD, into bodies made of flesh. Somehow I doubt it was so that we could reject it all and spend life praying and mortifying. From my perspective Christian saints had a very negative view of the world and of humanity.

It seems like you have some of that by suggesting that you deserve eternal punishment. Why on earth would you deserve eternal punishment?
We share a similar philosophy. What does God want for His children? What do we want for our children? We want the best for them: health, happiness, joy, fulfillment, sense of purpose, freedom from suffering and pain! God by definition should be the perfect parent and therefore want these things for all of us and then some.
 
Ready for a thread hijacking? 😃

If God is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful He would know which souls would end up in Hell before even creating them. He would know that after they were created they would never accept Him. Why, then, would He create someone He *knows *will end up in Hell when everything is said and done before they’re even created?
 
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ReformedCatholic:
This is something I don’t understand. A “venial” sin is not so bad, but a “mortal” sin is. Who determines what consists what?

What makes a sin a “mortal” sin? My thinking is that it is an act or behavior that harms another. Murder, physical, sexual, emotional abuse, etc. I can buy those as mortal sins. Anything less I tend to think as venial. What does “venial” mean, anyway?
**THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN **

CCC 1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

CCC 1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

CCC 1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130

CCC 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

CCC 1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

CCC 1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

CCC 1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

CCC 1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

CCC 1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

CCC 1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
 
I bet your sins are limited to a little bit of selfishness, maybe some gluttony and laziness, maybe a lack of restraint as regards sexual thoughts/actions.
Maybe you lose your temper sometimes, and like to enjoy yourself and have fun instead of selflessly helping others.
And is the occasional selfishness, gluttony, or laziness even harmful to others? Does any of it really consist of “mortal” sin?

As far as sex goes, I think there’s a terrible misconception about it being “bad” and “evil” and all that. You combine the millenia old idea that sperm were little people and what I believe to be Augustine’s “reaction formation” (condemning that which one used to practice, only on a subconscious level) to the life of debauchery he lived prior to his conversion.

If sex and the sexual aspect of ourselves is so bad, why even create it? Why bother with having people be “attracted” to each other and so forth? We could have just as easily been indoctrinated to ritualistically reproduce without any emotional involvement at all. Religion can be good at this!
 
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