Can you pray for suffering to be reduced in Hell?

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mike182d:
Ready for a thread hijacking? 😃

If God is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful He would know which souls would end up in Hell before even creating them. He would know that after they were created they would never accept Him. Why, then, would He create someone He *knows *will end up in Hell when everything is said and done before they’re even created?
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That’s okay, we weren’t exactly ON topic anyway. That’s a good question. Any ideas?
 
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Nicene:
I would suggest reading “Theology of the body.” The church doesn’t consider sex bad, it is the abuse of sex that is bad. It takes something good that God created and turns it into something perverted. Ever wonder why catholic families are so big if we consider sex to be bad? Seems like a dichotomy.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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People keep saying to read that, but I doubt I’d be convinced. Wasn’t it written by someone who had been celibate for decades? JP2?

Well, let me clarify. The church seems to think just about everything is “abuse” of our sexuality. If you’re not having sex with your wife and trying to conceive then it is “evil” and you’re “hurting” or “offending” God or something. I don’t buy it.

Yes, Catholic families can get so big because it is natural for a man and woman to want to have sex but the church teaches them that they’ll go to hell if they use any contraception, which in the light of today’s knowledge MIGHT be a venial sin at most.
 
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DreadVandal:
Such is the teaching of Scripture, which is the Word of God.
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Such is one interpretation of Scripture and the Word of God, in my view.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
People keep saying to read that, but I doubt I’d be convinced. Wasn’t it written by someone who had been celibate for decades? JP2?

Well, let me clarify. The church seems to think just about everything is “abuse” of our sexuality. If you’re not having sex with your wife and trying to conceive then it is “evil” and you’re “hurting” or “offending” God or something. I don’t buy it.

Yes, Catholic families can get so big because it is natural for a man and woman to want to have sex but the church teaches them that they’ll go to hell if they use any contraception, which in the light of today’s knowledge MIGHT be a venial sin at most.
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This is a little bit wrong, you can use NFP and deliberately restrict your sexual activity to the infertile times IF you have a good reason to do so (wanting to have sex without having babies is not a good enough reason).

I bet people who are careful about this teaching would end up having large families. Men aren’t known for long periods of abstinence, and the Church doesn’t let people use NFP whenever they want.

The consequences of this for women are especially devastating. Back in the day women’s lives consisted of one pregnancy after another and raising little babies, nothing more. And seeing the mental and physical effects of pregnancy on some women…

Well, all I can say is I feel sorry for conservative Catholic women.

And it’s very interesting how celibate men made all of this up. Of course they can’t imagine being pregnant for 10 years and dealing with the physical/psychological effects and 10 little kids.

Catholics seem to play this down, but the Church seems like a by-men-for-men structure. Where are the women? God is “the Father”, God is “the Son”, the apostles were all male, the clergy is all male and mostly celibate, all the teachings are made by men, the only woman revered in the Church is Mary: obedient virgin and selfless mother. Women should submit to their husbands as the Church submits to Christ. And the teaching on NFP also implies they should have lots of babies.

Something tells me that if God was the author of a religion half of his creatures would not be so left out.
 
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DreadVandal:
Is it possible for God to be in pain? To suffer? If so, then God is limited by being moved by finite things. If God feels no sorry at those who are damned, He can make us so that we will feel no sorrow as well.
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That’s what I don’t understand- how can a God of love not have empathy for his own children?
 
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solarwind23:
This is a little bit wrong, you can use NFP and deliberately restrict your sexual activity to the infertile times IF you have a good reason to do so (wanting to have sex without having babies is not a good enough reason).

I bet people who are careful about this teaching would end up having large families. Men aren’t known for long periods of abstinence, and the Church doesn’t let people use NFP whenever they want.

Personally if I believed this sex would either be a source of guilt (using NFP when there might not be a good enough reason) or a source of anxiety (could have another child when would rather not). I can’t imagine sex being particularly spontaneous or exciting or fun within this system. I can see the unity between spouses damaged by all the guilt/anxiety or for that matter never having any time for each other or anything else due to having 10 kids.

Although a more liberal interpretations of what a “good reason” is would fix this. But as it stands there is no official list, so it’s up to poor Catholics to discern, and I bet we all know how when eternal salvation is at stake people like to err on the safe side.
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Right, I didn’t mention NFP because that’s something else that makes no sense to me and the fact that it’s not always an option. Yes, it sounds to me like people would have a lot of issues as a result of this.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Right, I didn’t mention NFP because that’s something else that makes no sense to me and the fact that it’s not always an option. Yes, it sounds to me like people would have a lot of issues as a result of this.
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I edited my post a bit, to include the very masculine structure of the Church.

But yeah, too many rules, too many sins, and eternal damnation for 1 unreptented “mortal” sin even if you’ve been doing charitable deeds all your life.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
That’s what I don’t understand- how can a God of love not have empathy for his own children?
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What kind of church do you belong to?
What are its teachings on sin and hell?
 
And it’s very interesting how celibate men made all of this up. Of course they can’t imagine being pregnant for 10 years and dealing with the physical/psychological effects and 10 little kids.
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Catholics seem to play this down, but the Church seems like a by-men-for-men structure. Where are the women? God is “the Father”, God is “the Son”, the apostles were all male, the clergy is all male and mostly celibate, all the teachings are made by men, the only woman revered in the Church is Mary: obedient virgin and selfless mother. Women should submit to their husbands as the Church submits to Christ. And the teaching on NFP also implies they should have lots of babies.
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Something tells me that if God was the author of a religion half of his creatures would not be so left out.
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Good points. I always wondered how people who had denied and repressed their own sexuality could possibly have an accurate view of it.

Yes, I think women have been marginalized in Biblical writings. I don’t believe this is as it was meant to be, but there is talk that significant contributors and shapers of early Christianity edited things so that women would be subordinate and not have a significant role to play in the religion. I have even heard talk that Paul, for instance, was misogynist.
 
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DreadVandal:
One traditional way of looking at would be to say that a world where some people are punished in hell is a better world than one where there are no people punished in hell. God is free to display all of his attributes, including his wrath toward sin. So there is no contradiction in God’s being all good and God’s freely creating some people he knows will fall into unrepented mortal sin.
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this belief, that we are here solely for Gods glorification, whether that be through salvation or damnation - like pawns in a game of chess, well that is the only logical way of explaining predestination and/or foreknowledge. But its not compatable with a God who loves, unless you mean one who loves only himself. (or herself, isn’t it predictable that God is supposed to be male)
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Good points. I always wondered how people who had denied and repressed their own sexuality could possibly have an accurate view of it.

Yes, I think women have been marginalized in Biblical writings. I don’t believe this is as it was meant to be, but there is talk that significant contributors and shapers of early Christianity edited things so that women would be subordinate and not have a significant role to play in the religion. I have even heard talk that Paul, for instance, was misogynist.
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Oh really?? Who told you that?
 
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thistle:
What kind of church do you belong to?
What are its teachings on sin and hell?
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I was raised Roman Catholic until I was a teenager, but then started to research different world religions when I had questions about some things (kind of like I have here). I’ve ultimately returned to what I consider to be an ecumenical Christianity and an informal affiliation with The Reformed Catholic Church for about six months.

To be honest, I’m not entirely sure what their official teachings are on the subject- it delightfully hasn’t been a focus of conversation! I do understand that they typically include reason and dialogue with clergy and the laity in interpreting and establishing a general teaching on such things, though.
 
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thistle:
Oh really?? Who told you that?
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It was discussed in a Biblical archaeology class I took about 13 years ago. It included discussion that Paul was not an attractive man and that he had likely been rejected by women which only strengthened his already enculturated disdain toward and subordination of them. I wish I could remember more. I’ll see if I can find anything current on it.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
I was raised Roman Catholic until I was a teenager, but then started to research different world religions when I had questions about some things (kind of like I have here). I’ve ultimately returned to what I consider to be an ecumenical Christianity and an informal affiliation with The Reformed Catholic Church for about six months.

To be honest, I’m not entirely sure what their official teachings are on the subject- it delightfully hasn’t been a focus of conversation! I do understand that they typically include reason and dialogue with clergy and the laity in interpreting and establishing a general teaching on such things, though.
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Again I’m curious. How can you belong to a Church and not know what their teachings are?
 
The consequences of this for women are especially devastating. Back in the day women’s lives consisted of one pregnancy after another and raising little babies, nothing more. And seeing the mental and physical effects of pregnancy on some women…
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Typical perpective of a man. Personally I come from one of those evil big families. My mother had her last one, by choice at 48, after having lost one at 47 in the 8th month. Oh how those babies destroy ones life. What ****. Typical feminist antifamily bull. I work with mostly women, 90-10, ratio in my job, guess what, they wish they didn’t have to work so they could be with their families and I don’t blame them a bit.
Well, all I can say is I feel sorry for conservative Catholic women.
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Again typical projecting your own prejudice of what you think they should be feeling onto them without regard to what they think.
And it’s very interesting how celibate men made all of this up. Of course they can’t imagine being pregnant for 10 years and dealing with the physical/psychological effects and 10 little kids.
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See above, you are doing the same thing? And those evil little kids ruining lives. Typical of a secular society that doesn’t value life.
Catholics seem to play this down, but the Church seems like a by-men-for-men structure. Where are the women? God is “the Father”, God is “the Son”, the apostles were all male, the clergy is all male and mostly celibate, all the teachings are made by men, the only woman revered in the Church is Mary: obedient virgin and selfless mother. Women should submit to their husbands as the Church submits to Christ. And the teaching on NFP also implies they should have lots of babies.
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Showing your ignorance and prejudice again, projecting that which you believe onto others. Clergy is all male? Darn nuns, I guess they are viewed as worthless under your philosophy as well? All the teachings are made by men? Again ignorant of the church, go look up the doctors of the church.
Something tells me that if God was the author of a religion half of his creatures would not be so left out.
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They are? It appears you are very eager, as is todays society, to take men out of the picture of family life. Thanks for the sperm, if I need you again I’ll call you. Under catholic teaching men and women submit to each other within marriage. I love how you have marginalized men, women and children, all in one post. The family is evil and needs to be done away with. Welcome to secular society that places value on the “me” factor, with no responsibility.

By the way, heard all this before. It’s the dronish party line of the feminists, parroting off what others tell them without thought.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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thistle:
Oh really?? Who told you that?
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Paul probably wasn’t anti-women. The whole culture back then was extremely sexist, that Paul told women to be obedient to their husbands in very strong language is not such a big surprise. He did tell the husbands to love the wives, which is good.

But what does it reveal, that these are the teachings of a man, a man living in a sexist culture trying to make the best of it.

It does not suggest any kind of a word of God, unless God himself was raised in a sexist culture and shared their values.
 
Well, other religious traditions such as Buddhism and Hinduism have been around even longer. Judaism is also still around, and it predates Christianity.
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I said governing body, not religious philosophy. Traditional paganism (mainly pantheism) and athiesm have been around a lot longer than those.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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thistle:
Again I’m curious. How can you belong to a Church and not know what their teachings are?
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Well, as an Ecumenical Christian, I can pretty much believe as I wish. This Church is inclusive and places an emphasis on Christ’s teachings, particularly “love God above all else,” and “love one another as I have loved you” and the Sacraments.

There is more of a “do good” rather than a “dont’ do bad or else” approach. More emphasis on the big picture rather than details, since so much of the detail is subject to interpretation.

I think they adhere to about 80% (just a guess) of the CCC, and the remainder they either have an alternative teaching or it’s subject for interpretation. I’m still getting to know it, but I’m just as scrutinizing with them (or anyone else) as I am here.
 
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