Can you prove Christianity?

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One of the worst arguments. A personal visit from God, surrounded by his angels would be pretty convincing. As a matter of fact a simple conversation which would explain the “problem of evil” would sufficient for us. Or a guided tour of heaven and hell, so we could make an INFORMED decision would be very effective.
Well there have been plenty of testimonials from people who have be visited by God.
Testimonials
but the non-believers reject it.
Corinthians 2:14 Douay-Rheims
14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.
It really comes down to you to finding God, non of what we say will help you at this point in your life. If you have honesty in your heart, seek a direct, one-on-one, personal relationship with God. In other words Seek after God, and then you will find Him.

Pax Christi
THT
 
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Obviously not everyone received that gift. Of course I can already foresee the argument, that we all are given that gift, but the non-believers reject it. Please don’t even try that.
Heck, I tried, even begged for it and still nothing.
 
Heck, I tried, even begged for it and still nothing
It’s been my experience that it has already been given, we just don’t understand. Something in us wants to interpret what we see & hear a certain way, to support what we know.

Like we have a preconceived notion of God & when we ask him to reveal himself, anything short of that preconceived notion is oblivious to us. He could be right in front of us & still we don’t see.

If I imagine God in the form of a tiger, I beg God to show me the truth. He could land on my shoulder as a dove & I’ll shoo him off my shoulder & wait for a tiger to appear.

The dove may come rest on my shoulder again, I’ll shoo him away again & cry out, “Lord, reveal yourself to me please, I am in desperate need.” & I’ll wait for the tiger to show up.

The dove could land on my shoulder again, I’ll shoo him away again, very sad that God hadn’t revealed himself to me.
 
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It’s been my experience that it has already been given, we just don’t understand. Something in us wants to interpret what we see & hear a certain way, to support what we know.

Like we have a preconceived notion of God & when we ask him to reveal himself, anything short of that preconceived notion is oblivious to us. He could be right in front of us & still we don’t see.

If I imagine God in the form of a tiger, I beg God to show me the truth. He could land on my shoulder as a dove & I’ll shoo him off my shoulder & wait for a tiger to appear.
This is a very good description of the problem. I like to present it this way: “A communication can only happen if both parties use the same language”. If the initiator of the conversation does not use the language that the recipient understands, then the failure of the communication is the FAULT of the initiator - provided, of course that the initiator could use the correct language.

Now God understands my language. So when I ask for a conversation, he comprehends me. Obviously God is also able to speak my language. So, if he does not use it (tiger vs. dove) who is at FAULT? I am just like @Pattylt, I also asked, begged and nothing ever happened. Many times some apologists say: “God speaks through ME, the church and the other believers”. I would love to use a few, well chosen words to express my real feelings, but unfortunately that is not an option. “Charity”, you know?

The problem is even more serious. When I express my disappointment about the lack of response on God’s part, it is ALWAYS my fault! I was demanding that God should conform to MY request, and “who am I to demand that God be my beck and call”? Or I am too impatient, and God will manifest himself, when it is HIS choice.

In other words: it is always the fault of the skeptic! ALWAYS! (Just like the slogan of Wat-Mart.) And then the apologist is surprised when she is considered “incompetent” or something much worse that that.
 
I wasn’t asking for evidence to whether they were real. I was looking for evidence as to whether they were martyred. The reality is, many people claim that they were, but there is no evidence for the claim.
 
I wasn’t asking for evidence to whether they were real. I was looking for evidence as to whether they were martyred. The reality is, many people claim that they were, but there is no evidence for the claim.
It depends on what counts as evidence to you. There is very little that happened at the time that is supported by the eye witness testimony of people who could write that can be known with certainty to not be a later pseudonymous work, because people didn’t see anything wrong with putting the name of a respected author on a piece thought to be in keeping with what that author could have been imagined to have said. Although bones can record a cause of death, there is no way to confirm that the relics of a martyred person belonged to a particular historical figure.

I really don’t see how it is realistic to expect to find the kind of evidence you seem to want. The events in question didn’t happen at a time in history that could provide that for any but perhaps the most powerful. There simply isn’t going to be that sort of evidence concerning the lives and deaths of relative nobodies.
 
Maybe it is because when I hear people say that they believe Christianity is true because the apostles died for their belief, I think it is a bad conclusion for a few different reasons.
  1. No historical evidence they actually did die for their beliefs.
  2. There are many people even today that die for their beliefs, and I’m sure most Christians would not think that these people’s beliefs are true.
 
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steve-b:
There’s a wager on the table.
The wager is inherently flawed. And that is why no serious theologian suggests it. The error is manifold. It is not true that “no harm, no foul”. If you believe and your belief was incorrect, then you squandered your whole life. Because it is not just “believe” of “not believe”. You must offer up your whole life, must follow all sorts of commands that are unnatural. All that for nothing.

If you don’t believe, and you are wrong, then the alleged punishment (eternal suffering) is just an assumption. The alleged supreme being does not have to be God of Christianity, it can be any “first cause” or any deistic “creator”. No theologian suggests it seriously.
The wager is simple. One is either right or they are wrong. St Paul used the same example Re: belief in Jesus.

Paraphrased

Either Jesus resurrected from the dead or he didn’t, if not, we are the biggest fools on the planet. 1 Corinthians 15:13-23
 
Maybe it is because when I hear people say that they believe Christianity is true because the apostles died for their belief, I think it is a bad conclusion for a few different reasons.
  1. No historical evidence they actually did die for their beliefs.
  2. There are many people even today that die for their beliefs, and I’m sure most Christians would not think that these people’s beliefs are true.
No, there is no historical evidence that you will accept. There was evidence that was accepted by people of the time (even those who were not Christian) and that have been accepted from then until now.

Let us go back to the premise: that is, that the Apostles were not lying. We aren’t saying their beliefs are true because they were willing to die for what they believed. We are saying that the martyrdom of so many over such a long period of time–that is, the dying of later ones who could have seen what was coming–is evidence that they themselves, the ones who say they witnessed what they taught, really believed what they taught. It was not just one or two people who said they had some revelation that others decided to believe, but many who said they had seen and heard the same things firsthand.

The genesis and spread of Christianity really is a very unusual and perhaps a unique event in history. That doesn’t mean the evidence is unassailable by someone who has their doubts. It means that it is rational to believe it, though. I don’t know what other chain of evidence one could imagine would exist if the events happened as taught, after all. What evidence is missing that we could expect to be there? I don’t think there is any.
 
There’s a wager on the table
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PickyPicky:
Steve, you are persistent in misunderstanding me. I am discussing purely whether the truth of Christianity can be proved, that being the subject of the OP. Not whether it is true, but whether it can be proven true. Quoting chunks out of the Bible, or rephrasing chunks of the Bible, or taking potshots at my unbelief — none of that takes us any further.
Your unbelief is obvious. That Truth doesn’t need proof.
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PickyPicky:
Let’s put it this way. Not relying on pre-supposing the Bible true, not relying on pre-supposing Catholic teaching true, how would you prove the truth of, say, the Nicene creed. My guess is that it cannot be proven — which does not speak to the matter of its truth, of course.
The Nicene Creed is a historical document. As is the council it came from.
 
And, of course there were many Protestant martyrs who went to the flames refusing to recant. Does that make Protestantism true?
 
But … can you prove Christianity? We can demolish my unbelief some other time. The OP wants to know if you can prove Christianity.
The Nicene Creed is a historical document. As is the council it came from.
Of course, but are the events the Creed professes provable? You see, Steve, that’s what this thread is supposed to be about. Of course the Nicene Creed is an historical document. So is the Koran. That’s not the point. The point is: Can you prove Christianity?
 
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To a certain extent you are advocating Pagan Syncretism – the ancient belief that all the gods are the same. It was rejection of this concept that led to much persecution – Christians would not worship false gods.

Many thousands of Christians have died because all religions are NOT equal.

Consider this: Would it be acceptable to worship Tlaloc, the Aztec god of rain, who demanded the sacrifice of children?
 
A miracle most certainly would be evidence,
Miracles of Gautama Buddha are found in Buddhist Scriptures. They include miraculous healings and teleportation. Also, immediately after his birth, he took seven steps north and was able to speak coherently. Further, wherever the baby (Buddha) placed his foot, a lotus flower bloomed. When he became an adult, he was able to walk on water and walk through walls. There were many, many other miracles that he performed which are sometimes regarded as abilities gained through meditation.
 
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You said, “And does it really matter which religion is followed as long as people try their best to be good people?”

That is syncretism, the idea that all religions are equally valid.
 
But … can you prove Christianity? We can demolish my unbelief some other time. The OP wants to know if you can prove Christianity.
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steve-b:
The Nicene Creed is a historical document. As is the council it came from.
Of course, but are the events the Creed professes provable? You see, Steve, that’s what this thread is supposed to be about. Of course the Nicene Creed is an historical document. So is the Koran. That’s not the point. The point is: Can you prove Christianity?
The creed defines what the Church believes and teaches based on what it has received from Jesus and the apostles.

The Koran came from Mohammad.
 
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