Can you talk me out of becoming a Catholic?

[Church_Militant]

(Okay…playing devil’s advocate here…).

You need to get far away from that Catholic Church and their super computer that has your non-Catholic name in the Vatican so they can track you down when the tribulation comes.

Ya know I read that in a little comic book tract, so you KNOW it’s gotta be true, right?

Then of course there is the fact that you won’t be allowed to read the Bible and they’ll charge you money to try to get into Heaven.

Remember what the Roman pagans used to say about 'em. “These are the ones that eat their god and drown their children.”

Heck, based on that, I think I better get myself down to that new church across the highway and get saved right away.

(Okay…that was like C.S. Lewis’ description of how hard writing The Screwtape Letters was for him because of the diabolical mindset that he had to get into when he didn’t believe any of it.

My real advice? The same as that which Ananias said to St. Paul in Acts 22:16.

“16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.”)

 

[Contarini]

Eastern Orthodox? Doesn’t one have to be Greek to be one?

Certainly not. One doesn’t even have to be Greek to be Greek Orthodox, though the Greeks will look at you funny. And I’ve seen OCA and Antiochene parishes that were almost all made up of converts. (I’m not sure that’s an entirely healthy phenomenon, actually, but it’s a very real one.)

Complexities and uncertainties: Will you name one or two?

If you’ve been hanging on on these forums for a while with a reasonably critical mind, you should have noticed plenty. How to view historical criticism, how to view evolution, how to apply Catholic moral principles to a political situation in which neither major political party supports those principles entirely, what the role of women should be in the Church (I word that vaguely, because if you’ve been listening only to the conservative Catholics you are probably persuaded that the issue of ordaining women to the priesthood has been sewn up in a sack and drowned in the Tiber, although in the real Catholic Church outside the cloistered cyberwalls of this forum the issue is still seriously debated–but even if you count that one as settled, there are still questions about the diaconate, altar girls, etc.), how to view other churches and other religions (including quasi-religious practices like yoga, which are very popular among Catholics but somewhat frowned on by the Vatican and absolutely abhorred by the conservative crowd), whether you should attend an EF Mass if opportunity arises, and so on. These are just some of the first ones that come to mind. Since you’re married, and to someone not inclined to become Catholic, birth control will present some very difficult issues (unless you and your spouse are older than I take you to be). Then there are questions of liturgy and worship, which I touched on by mentioning the EF.

I’m sure there are lots more–after all, I’ve never actually been a confirmed Catholic, although I sort of counted as a Catholic for two months–I received last rites at one point.

None of this means you shouldn’t be Catholic. But if your question to me was really prompted by the belief that no such difficulties and complexities exist, you’re in for some serious shocks. Of that I am 100% certain. I’ve seen converts go through this (online and in real life) far too often to have any reasonable doubt.

I know quite a few converts who aren’t Catholic any more, for one thing.

But in the end I agree with Jon: you need to belong to a Christian community, and at the very, very least you could do a lot worse than the Catholic Church (indeed, as far as I’m concerned the only place where you might conceivably do better–and of that I am far from sure–is with the Orthodox).

Edwin

 

[qui_est_ce]

If you’ve been hanging on on these forums for a while with a reasonably critical mind, you should have noticed plenty. How to view historical criticism, how to view evolution, how to apply Catholic moral principles to a political situation in which neither major political party supports those principles entirely, what the role of women should be in the Church (I word that vaguely, because if you’ve been listening only to the conservative Catholics you are probably persuaded that the issue of ordaining women to the priesthood has been sewn up in a sack and drowned in the Tiber, although in the** real Catholic Church outside the cloistered cyberwalls of this forum the issue is still seriously debated–but even if you **count that one as settled, there are still questions about the diaconate, altar girls, etc.), how to view other churches and other religions (including quasi-religious practices like yoga, which are very popular among Catholics but somewhat frowned on by the Vatican and absolutely abhorred by the conservative crowd), whether you should attend an EF Mass if opportunity arises, and so on. These are just some of the first ones that come to mind. Since you’re married, and to someone not inclined to become Catholic, birth control will present some very difficult issues (unless you and your spouse are older than I take you to be). Then there are questions of liturgy and worship, which I touched on by mentioning the EF.

Edwin

Very interesting list. For my part, none of these trouble me, or the people in my parish, for the most part. You are in academia, and that’s a whole different real world “cloister.”

I really mean that, and no insult intended. You just live in a different and grayer world than the average Catholic or Lutheran even. I doubt LCMS has issues with male only ordination.

There are some people in my parish who are quite vocal about female ordination and the female deaconate. The majority accept the Holy Father’s word and aren’t interested in rehashing old debates. Interestingly, those who are so vocal about female ordination are also in favor of open Communion, against outlawing abortion, and most of all, DO NOT BELIEVE IN PAPAL INFALLLIBILITY!! Why in the world they would want to belong to a religion with which they disagree is beyond me. These people can be most tiresome IMO and are generally viewed as such by the rest.

The rest of us are too busy either not caring (sadly), or doing Bible Study, RCIA, Choir, St Vincent de Paul, etc. Trying our best to follow our faith as best we can.

God bless.

 

[qui_est_ce]

In the Lutheran tradition, only those who are ordained are to preside at the Eucharist, to proclaim absolution, and to ordain.

With regard to presiding at the Eucharist, I am aware of cases where a Bishop authorizes a non-ordained person to preside, acting for the Bishop. I don’t really think there is a sound theological basis for doing so, but it is done in some places.

With regard to absolution, only an ordained person is authorized to proclaim, following confession, that “as a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins.”

As to ordination, there is disagreement about whether it must be done by a bishop or if it can be done by an ordained pastor. The latter position is popular in the more congregational elements of Lutheranism. For myself, I would not have dreamed of being ordained other than by my bishop.

That’s a brief answer.

Thanks for your reply. So ordination does confer certain powers. I also did not know Lutherans had Confession. I don’t remember my dad ever going to Confession (LCMS).

 

[Contarini]

Very interesting list. For my part, none of these trouble me, or the people in my parish, for the most part. You are in academia, and that’s a whole different real world “cloister.”

I’m sure that my concerns are shaped by academia, but I think most of the issues I raised are of importance to Catholics outside academia. For instance, there are many parishes served by female “pastoral associates” or whatever they are called (usually nuns), in the absence of priests. I think that the question of the role of women in the Church is of importance for people in those parishes, whether they are academics or not.

Edwin

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’m sure that my concerns are shaped by academia, but I think most of the issues I raised are of importance to Catholics outside academia. For instance, there are many parishes served by female “pastoral associates” or whatever they are called (usually nuns), in the absence of priests. I think that the question of the role of women in the Church is of importance for people in those parishes, whether they are academics or not.

Edwin

I understand that. But most faithful Catholics worry more about being faithful. I don’t know of any parishes run by nuns, but that is besides the point. Running a parish and being “ordained” are two very different things. A Parish Manager runs the parish, and associate is always a priest.

Many nuns in my area are extremely liberal feminists. They are losing numbers whereas the more orthodox orders are gaining members. St. Louis is a very Catholic city, having been a trading post and gateway for missionaries. The Jesuit University here is also extremely liberal. My experience is that people are tired of these academics teaching heresy and personal opinion for Church Doctrine. Even my daughter got sick of the “Our Mother” at her “Catholic” high school.

The priest scandal proves that most Catholics are able to separate “human” from Teaching. I doubt more than a handful left because of this.

I stand by my observation, why would you want to be a Catholic if you don’t believe in her Teachings (and yes, male only ordination is a doctrine).

Just my :twocents:

 

[Contarini]

I stand by my observation, why would you want to be a Catholic if you don’t believe in her Teachings (and yes, male only ordination is a doctrine).

Are you seriously suggesting that people run Catholic teachings through a “checklist” of what they already believe and only convert if all the teachings line up? Very, very few people will become Catholic that way.

People become Catholic because they are convinced by the claims of Catholicism as a whole–they may have trouble with certain specific points, and usually do.

Edwin

 

[zerinus]

I’m pretty sure I’m making the right decision, but I’d like to hear any reasons why I should not become Catholic. Anyone have any thoughts?

Catholicism is a great church and a great religion. I would never try to persuade someone not to become a Catholic. The only reason why I never became a Catholic is because I found something even better!

 

[JonNC]

I doubt LCMS has issues with male only ordination.

Oh, yes we do. Not me, but we have our vocal advocates of female ordination.

I also did not know Lutherans had Confession. I don’t remember my dad ever going to Confession (LCMS).

From Luther’s Small Catechism
bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#confession
And this format is in most, if not all, Lutheran service books, ELCA, LCMS, etc.

EDIT: And we have corporate / public confession and Holy Absolution at every service.

Jon

 

[qui_est_ce]

Are you seriously suggesting that people run Catholic teachings through a “checklist” of what they already believe and only convert if all the teachings line up? Very, very few people will become Catholic that way.

People become Catholic because they are convinced by the claims of Catholicism as a whole–they may have trouble with certain specific points, and usually do.

Edwin

I didn’t mean to suggest that at all, and I’m sorry I left that impression. I agree with your second statement. I accept the claims of the Church as a whole. I don’t understand all of it, but since I accept the Church as a whole, I accept what I don’t understand as well. I don’t so much question the Teachings of the Church as much as I try to understand why some teachings are what they are.

Basically, most people aren’t scholars and accept on faith what they don’t understand.

 

[catholic-rcia]

A good reason not to become Catholic would be the Sacrament of Confession. You see only the Catholic Church has this. You go in and confess all of your sins and then you get to be forgiven, I mean what is up with that? I know it sounds crazy, you go in confess your sins to Jesus and through a Priest you can here in words that you have been forgiven. So if you were to ask Satan himself what he hates about the Catholic Church and why you should not join it he would tell you because of the Sacrament Confession for sure. He told my Father and my mother why they should not join the Catholic church. I got it! I understand why! That’s why I sat down and wrote this soon after my own Baptism. Its all about why you should not join the Catholic Church, from Satan’s perspective.

If only my parents had known God

http://utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html

In Christ
Rich

 

[catholic-rcia]

I didn’t mean to suggest that at all, and I’m sorry I left that impression. I agree with your second statement. I accept the claims of the Church as a whole. I don’t understand all of it, but since I accept the Church as a whole, I accept what I don’t understand as well. I don’t so much question the Teachings of the Church as much as I try to understand why some teachings are what they are.

Basically, most people aren’t scholars and accept on faith what they don’t understand.

When I went through the RCIA process I did it for alternative motives. You see I had a really good job opportunity in Utah so my Catholic wife made me. I simply wanted the job so I said I would attend. I am one who actually found all of the teaching made perfect sense. I found exactly what I was searching for and it was not a really good job. I found Jesus and His Church. In this I found life after myself.

To keep the post on track I guess you could say this is another reason not to join the Catholic Church. Again from the Devils perspective.

Nor to anger him further, but I have to ad:

In Christ Jesus
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

But, let me ask you this: Do you know that the early Church Fathers taught all three views?

 

[spockrates]

(Okay…playing devil’s advocate here…).

You need to get far away from that Catholic Church and their super computer that has your non-Catholic name in the Vatican so they can track you down when the tribulation comes.

Ya know I read that in a little comic book tract, so you KNOW it’s gotta be true, right?

Then of course there is the fact that you won’t be allowed to read the Bible and they’ll charge you money to try to get into Heaven.

Remember what the Roman pagans used to say about 'em. “These are the ones that eat their god and drown their children.”

Heck, based on that, I think I better get myself down to that new church across the highway and get saved right away.

(Okay…that was like C.S. Lewis’ description of how hard writing The Screwtape Letters was for him because of the diabolical mindset that he had to get into when he didn’t believe any of it.

My real advice? The same as that which Ananias said to St. Paul in Acts 22:16.

“16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.”)

Thanks, Militant. Been baptized on both sides of the river, so I’ve got that base covered!

 

[spockrates]

Certainly not. One doesn’t even have to be Greek to be Greek Orthodox, though the Greeks will look at you funny. And I’ve seen OCA and Antiochene parishes that were almost all made up of converts. (I’m not sure that’s an entirely healthy phenomenon, actually, but it’s a very real one.)…

Fascinating! Still, it would be easier to consider Eastern Orthodoxy if there were any of their churches near by. It’s like the difference between Starbucks and Seattle’s Best–if you want the latter, you’ll have to drive so far you’ll end up giving up coffee!



But, like Starbucks, there’s a Catholic Church in nearly every community–at least there is where I reside.

 

[spockrates]

… If you’ve been hanging on on these forums for a while with a reasonably critical mind, you should have noticed plenty. How to view historical criticism, how to view evolution, how to apply Catholic moral principles to a political situation in which neither major political party supports those principles entirely, what the role of women should be in the Church (I word that vaguely, because if you’ve been listening only to the conservative Catholics you are probably persuaded that the issue of ordaining women to the priesthood has been sewn up in a sack and drowned in the Tiber, although in the real Catholic Church outside the cloistered cyberwalls of this forum the issue is still seriously debated–but even if you count that one as settled, there are still questions about the diaconate, altar girls, etc.), how to view other churches and other religions (including quasi-religious practices like yoga, which are very popular among Catholics but somewhat frowned on by the Vatican and absolutely abhorred by the conservative crowd), whether you should attend an EF Mass if opportunity arises, and so on. These are just some of the first ones that come to mind. Since you’re married, and to someone not inclined to become Catholic, birth control will present some very difficult issues (unless you and your spouse are older than I take you to be). Then there are questions of liturgy and worship, which I touched on by mentioning the EF.

I’m sure there are lots more–after all, I’ve never actually been a confirmed Catholic, although I sort of counted as a Catholic for two months–I received last rites at one point.

None of this means you shouldn’t be Catholic. But if your question to me was really prompted by the belief that no such difficulties and complexities exist, you’re in for some serious shocks. Of that I am 100% certain. I’ve seen converts go through this (online and in real life) far too often to have any reasonable doubt.

I know quite a few converts who aren’t Catholic any more, for one thing.

But in the end I agree with Jon: you need to belong to a Christian community, and at the very, very least you could do a lot worse than the Catholic Church (indeed, as far as I’m concerned the only place where you might conceivably do better–and of that I am far from sure–is with the Orthodox).

Edwin

Yes, I’m aware of these, Edwin. Just wanted to know what was on your mind. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[spockrates]

Catholicism is a great church and a great religion. I would never try to persuade someone not to become a Catholic. The only reason why I never became a Catholic is because I found something even better!

Hey, Zerinus! How’s my virtual Mormon man?



Please tell me why the LDS church is better. Have you lived in both worlds?

 

[spockrates]

No, the early church Fathers taught the Primacy of Peter and his successors in the Popes and many of them used Mathew 16 in their commentaries.

No, the CCC teaches that the Rock = Peter from Matthew 16 and backs it up in the resurrection before Jesus ascends into heaven, from John 21:15-18 Jesus confers on Peter alone the jurisdiction of supreme shepherd and ruler over all his fold; to tend, feed and care for his flock on earth.

In fact **the Catholic Church **goes as far as stipulating in her **canon **that “Therefore, if anyone says that the blessed apostle Peter was not constituted by Christ the Lord as the Prince of all the apostles and the visible head of the whole Church militant, or that he recieved immediately and directly from Jesus Christ our Lord only a primacy of honour and not a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction; Let him be condemned”.

I don’t know of any 3 other views from antiquity or the present Catholic church that teaches Peter not being the Rock Jesus builds his church upon.

The protestant view that Jesus built his church upon Peter’s faith does not agree with sacred scripture nor apostolic Tradition. This faith only view and your 3 others are relatively new compared to the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 which is 2000 years old.

Peace be with you

Thanks for the reply, Gabriel. So you don’t believe that the Catholic Church has three rocks as it’s foundation–Peter, Christ, and the truth about who Christ is?

 

[zerinus]

Hey, Zerinus! How’s my virtual Mormon man?

Long time no see! Where have you been? On the starship Enterprise? Going boldly where no man has gone before? Met any Klingons lately?

Please tell me why the LDS church is better. Have you lived in both worlds?

I wouldn’t say it is better or worse. I would just say that it is true.

 

[spockrates]

Long time no see! Where have you been? On the starship Enterprise? Going boldly where no man has gone before? Met any Klingons lately?

LOL! Gotta love those Star Trek metaphors.

I wouldn’t say it is better or worse. I would just say that it is true.

What is truth? (Sorry, the Socrates in me just has to ask those mind-bending questions!)