Can you talk me out of becoming a Catholic?

[Contarini]

Fascinating! Still, it would be easier to consider Eastern Orthodoxy if there were any of their churches near by. It’s like the difference between Starbucks and Seattle’s Best–if you want the latter, you’ll have to drive so far you’ll end up giving up coffee!



But, like Starbucks, there’s a Catholic Church in nearly every community–at least there is where I reside.

I know. And I don’t think that’s irrelevant by any means. The fact that there is a Catholic church a couple minutes’ walk farther down the road from the Episcopal church I attend (and another one basically across the road, and a convent across town) affects my ecclesial situation seriously, in my opinion.

Edwin

 

[qui_est_ce]

Fascinating! Still, it would be easier to consider Eastern Orthodoxy if there were any of their churches near by. It’s like the difference between Starbucks and Seattle’s Best–if you want the latter, you’ll have to drive so far you’ll end up giving up coffee!



But, like Starbucks, there’s a Catholic Church in nearly every community–at least there is where I reside.

Don’t know good Seattle’s Best is, but if it is the best coffee, then I would go for it. If the coffee is that good, there would be a higher demand for it and it would more available. The where the coffee analogy ends, because that will lead to talking capitalism. God wants our ALL, we are to hold nothing back from him. We must give up EVERYTHING and follow him.

A church on every corner does not water down the original recipe.

 

[spockrates]

I know. And I don’t think that’s irrelevant by any means. The fact that there is a Catholic church a couple minutes’ walk farther down the road from the Episcopal church I attend (and another one basically across the road, and a convent across town) affects my ecclesial situation seriously, in my opinion.

Edwin

Seems to me that if God wanted more people to become Eastern Orthodox, He’d see to it that the Eastern Orthodox had more evangelists start EO churches, like the Apostle Paul.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Seems to me that if God wanted more people to become Eastern Orthodox, He’d see to it that the Eastern Orthodox had more evangelists start EO churches, like the Apostle Paul.

There are 16 Orthodox churches in the St. Louis area, including Illinois. Only three of them are not specifically ethnic (Russian, Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian).

There is literally a Catholic Church within one mile in any direction in the city alone. There are over 200 Catholic parishes in the Archdiocese of St. Louis, which does not include Illinois. This as after mergers.

You should never second guess God.

 

[Contarini]

Seems to me that if God wanted more people to become Eastern Orthodox, He’d see to it that the Eastern Orthodox had more evangelists start EO churches, like the Apostle Paul.

I think guessing what God might do is generally a bad idea, especially given all the things God has “not seen to” in terms of the behavior of Protestants and Catholics.

I don’t deny that this is a somewhat relevant consideration, but I think it’s a pretty weak one. The stronger argument is that if we need to take the EOs seriously, by the same token we should take the OOs and the Church of the East seriously.

Edwin

 

[tomarin]

Seems to me that if God wanted more people to become Eastern Orthodox, He’d see to it that the Eastern Orthodox had more evangelists start EO churches, like the Apostle Paul.

I used to be quite taken by this line of thought – God doesn’t hide his lamp under a bushell – until it occurred to me that a similar argument might be used against Catholicism, that is, if God had wanted the world to be Catholic, He wouldn’t have allowed what would become the leading (in terms of political, commercial, technological, scientific and military innovation) nations of Europe to become Protestant.

 

[zerinus]

LOL! Gotta love those Star Trek metaphors.

I was a fan; but I have not watched any episodes for many years.

What is truth?

"And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" (D&C 93:24.)

 

[jmcrae]

Seems to me that if God wanted more people to become Eastern Orthodox, He’d see to it that the Eastern Orthodox had more evangelists start EO churches, like the Apostle Paul.

The Church is defined by the First Council of Nicea as One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

The Orthodox churches are not united into One - they each go their own very similar-looking ways, but membership in one of them does not automatically cause you to have membership in all of them - not like how joining one of the 23 Rites of the Catholic Church gives you full membership privileges in the other 22.

They also, as you have already noticed, don’t have the same sense of urgency about making sure there are parishes within reasonable traveling distance of any and all potential members - so, they aren’t “catholic” (world-wide) in the same way that the Catholic Church is.

By contrast, did you know that the surface of the moon is actually part of the territory of the Diocese of Orlando? Pope Paul VI extended the territory to the surface of the moon when Neil Armstrong set foot there. So, if or when we colonize the Moon, the Catholic residents there already have a Bishop, and he will already be authorized to send them priests and build them churches, once the need arises and the technology becomes available.

In territories that are hostile to the Catholic faith, even in the cases where there are no resident priests or Bishops (or where the resident priests and Bishops have to hide the fact of their existence from the local authorities) the parishes and Dioceses are still marked out, and there are Bishops and priests who are assigned to be in those places, as soon as the situation becomes more favourable - it won’t be a matter of having to put out a call and hope someone responds - there are already priests and Bishops who are all set to step in, build churches, and gather congregations together, the very moment it becomes legal for them to do so.

 

[Contarini]

The Orthodox churches are not united into One - they each go their own very similar-looking ways, but membership in one of them does not automatically cause you to have membership in all of them

That isn’t true.

They also, as you have already noticed, don’t have the same sense of urgency about making sure there are parishes within reasonable traveling distance of any and all potential members - so, they aren’t “catholic” (world-wide) in the same way that the Catholic Church is.

So the Catholic Church only became Catholic a few centuries ago, when European colonization took European religion around the world?

By contrast, did you know that the surface of the moon is actually part of the territory of the Diocese of Orlando?

This statement all by itself illustrates how hopelessly you and other members of your Communion confuse imperialism and evangelism.

Edwin

 

[jmcrae]

So the Catholic Church only became Catholic a few centuries ago, when European colonization took European religion around the world?

The Catholic Church has always been the one sending people out to the farthest places known to them - sit in your armchair and criticize if you want to, but when St. Donan bravely crossed over Hadrian’s Wall and came to Scotland, your religion didn’t even exist yet, let alone send out evangelists to Scotland, or anywhere else.

This statement all by itself illustrates how hopelessly you and other members of your Communion confuse imperialism and evangelism.

“Imperialism”?

How is it “imperialism” to have a Bishop who will be ready to take care of the spiritual needs of people living on the Moon?

 

[Rence]

You will have to place a Crucifix in your home above the front door.

That’s a requirement of a catholic? I didn’t know that…I mean, we’ve always had a cross above our front and back door, but I didn’t know it was required.

On that note: why the front door? What if you never use the front door and all activities happen via the back door? If you had to choose only one door, does it have to be the front door?

 

[Contarini]

The Catholic Church has always been the one sending people out to the farthest places known to them - sit in your armchair and criticize if you want to, but when St. Donan bravely crossed over Hadrian’s Wall and came to Scotland, your religion didn’t even exist yet, let alone send out evangelists to Scotland, or anywhere else.

Of course, the Orthodox would say that he and the other early saints were Orthodox–certainly they were not “Catholic” in some way as yet distinguished from “Orthodoxy.”

You can only make a fair comparison post-Schism. Of course, that means that the Orthodox can’t cite Sts. Cyril and Methodius either.

How about the Nestorians? You want real missionary zeal, maybe they are the true Catholic Church? True, they’re mostly in Chicago now. . . .

“Imperialism”?

How is it “imperialism” to have a Bishop who will be ready to take care of the spiritual needs of people living on the Moon?

Because there are no such people yet. So it’s not evangelism. Why then do it? Out of a desire to have everything covered in some sort of neat jurisdictional pattern.

Edwin

 

[spockrates]

There are 16 Orthodox churches in the St. Louis area, including Illinois. Only three of them are not specifically ethnic (Russian, Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian).

There is literally a Catholic Church within one mile in any direction in the city alone. There are over 200 Catholic parishes in the Archdiocese of St. Louis, which does not include Illinois. This as after mergers.

You should never second guess God.

Yeah. It’s like I said: If you want Starbucks, there’s one down the street. If you want Seattle’s Best, you’ll need to board a jet plane to the state of Washington!

 

[spockrates]

I think guessing what God might do is generally a bad idea, especially given all the things God has “not seen to” in terms of the behavior of Protestants and Catholics.

I don’t deny that this is a somewhat relevant consideration, but I think it’s a pretty weak one. The stronger argument is that if we need to take the EOs seriously, by the same token we should take the OOs and the Church of the East seriously.

Edwin

If the nearest EO church is a three-hour drive from my home, should I seriously think about quitting my job, selling my home, and moving my family to Indianapolis or Chicago?

 

[spockrates]

I used to be quite taken by this line of thought – God doesn’t hide his lamp under a bushell – until it occurred to me that a similar argument might be used against Catholicism, that is, if God had wanted the world to be Catholic, He wouldn’t have allowed what would become the leading (in terms of political, commercial, technological, scientific and military innovation) nations of Europe to become Protestant.

I agree, Lee (loved his movies, BTW)! But don’t you think there is a difference between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church in this: The Catholic Church, being more widespread, appears to have taken Jesus more seriously when He said:

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

(Matthew 28:18-20)

Granted, this is not THE test for God’s Church (Evangelicals and Latter Day Saints both take the command seriously) but obeying this parting command of Christ is one of the minimum requirements of His real Church. Don’t you think?

 

[spockrates]

I was a fan; but I have not watched any episodes for many years.

"And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" (D&C 93:24.)

You have not missed much. No TV show since the first compares to the original 52 episodes. The Start Trek movie that was released in 2009 was extremely well done, however. It’s worth a watch, if you don’t have a religious conviction against seeing movies rated PG-13.

 

[spockrates]

The Church is defined by the First Council of Nicea as One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

The Orthodox churches are not united into One - they each go their own very similar-looking ways, but membership in one of them does not automatically cause you to have membership in all of them - not like how joining one of the 23 Rites of the Catholic Church gives you full membership privileges in the other 22.

They also, as you have already noticed, don’t have the same sense of urgency about making sure there are parishes within reasonable traveling distance of any and all potential members - so, they aren’t “catholic” (world-wide) in the same way that the Catholic Church is.

By contrast, did you know that the surface of the moon is actually part of the territory of the Diocese of Orlando? Pope Paul VI extended the territory to the surface of the moon when Neil Armstrong set foot there. So, if or when we colonize the Moon, the Catholic residents there already have a Bishop, and he will already be authorized to send them priests and build them churches, once the need arises and the technology becomes available.

In territories that are hostile to the Catholic faith, even in the cases where there are no resident priests or Bishops (or where the resident priests and Bishops have to hide the fact of their existence from the local authorities) the parishes and Dioceses are still marked out, and there are Bishops and priests who are assigned to be in those places, as soon as the situation becomes more favourable - it won’t be a matter of having to put out a call and hope someone responds - there are already priests and Bishops who are all set to step in, build churches, and gather congregations together, the very moment it becomes legal for them to do so.

(Spockrates nods in agreement.)

 

[JonNC]

You have not missed much. No TV show since the first compares to the original 52 episodes. The Start Trek movie that was released in 2009 was extremely well done, however. It’s worth a watch, if you don’t have a religious conviction against seeing movies rated PG-13.

Or seeing the entire Star Trek world destroyed along with Vulcan. :crying:

JOn

 

[spockrates]

Or seeing the entire Star Trek world destroyed along with Vulcan. :crying:

JOn

It’s like Noah’s Arc all over again!

 

[tomarin]

Granted, this is not THE test for God’s Church (Evangelicals and Latter Day Saints both take the command seriously) but obeying this parting command of Christ is one of the minimum requirements of His real Church. Don’t you think?

So the conversion of Russia and most of the Slavic nations doesn’t count as far as evangelization? What about what they do nowadays in terms of outreach in places like North America? The bottom line is that until communism fell not many people in the rest of the world were aware of or took seriously Orthodoxy. I think that now that it’s become evident that it’s a going concern it’s doing a fair job making up for lost time.

In other words, I don’t think there’s much difference in the zeal – or lack thereof – with which Catholics or Orthodox seek to convert people to their faith. But I do think external events (Islamic conquest, then communism) have kept Orthodoxy unnaturally locked up in one part of the world until recently.