Canon of the Bible

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Please provide your source for this difference in the definition of Scripture and Canon.

It has always been my understanding that “Scripture” and “Canon” are synonomous. Books that are considered ‘edifying,’ but not ‘Scripture,’ have historically been added in an appendix. This practice originated with some versions of the ancient Vulgate; books not considered Scripture, or canonical, but nevertheless regarded as valuable, were added in an appendix.

Luther used the appendix as his method of removing the deuterocanonical books from the canon and for relegating Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation to less than canonical status in the NT in his German translation of the Bible (c.1534).

Jim Dandy
The idea that “Canon” being different from “Scripture” comes from the fathers of the Church use of these words. The fathers would list the Canon of Scripture from their perspective, yet they would use books not included in their lists and they would still call them “Scripture.”

With regards to the councils that are being brought up in this thread, such as Carthage, notice the phrase “that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures.”

To me this sounds like that what they are meaning here is that when it comes to the readings of the liturgy, these are the approved books(Canonical Scriptures) that are only to be read from, not that these are the only defined books of being Divinely Inspired. Again “Canon” and “Scripture” if they truly have, which I am lead to believe, different meanings.
 
Please provide your source for this difference in the definition of Scripture and Canon.

It has always been my understanding that “Scripture” and “Canon” are synonomous. Books that are considered ‘edifying,’ but not ‘Scripture,’ have historically been added in an appendix. This practice originated with some versions of the ancient Vulgate; books not considered Scripture, or canonical, but nevertheless regarded as valuable, were added in an appendix.

Luther used the appendix as his method of removing the deuterocanonical books from the canon and for relegating Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation to less than canonical status in the NT in his German translation of the Bible (c.1534).

Jim Dandy
The idea that “Canon” being different from “Scripture” comes from the fathers of the Church use of these words. The fathers would list the Canon of Scripture from their perspective, yet they would use books not included in their lists and they would still call them “Scripture.”

With regards to the councils that are being brought up in this thread, such as Carthage, notice the phrase “that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures.”

To me this sounds like that what they are meaning here is that when it comes to the readings of the liturgy, these are the approved books(Canonical Scriptures) that are only to be read from, not that these are the only defined books of being Divinely Inspired. Again “Canon” and “Scripture” if they truly have, which I am lead to believe, different meanings.
 
Sure, if there’s one that offers it in my area. Even the local UOC doesn’t have Vespers.
The Orthodox Church there doesn’t have Sat. eve vespers? Doesn’t have Great Compline at Nativity, Eve of the Theophany Festal Vespers with the Great Blessing of Water? Are you sure?
 
Smad0142:

I am afraid you are incorrect on the ecumenical council issue.
I responded to this:
Originally Posted by ciero
Rome has made it clear over and over there are 7 ecumenical councils, all the rest are local councils of the Western church. This includes BXVI.
The Catholic Church (to which I belong, having considered Orthodoxy in the process of conversion) has had 21 Ecumenical Councils. The Orthodox preferred not to participate in several of them.

Cardinal Ratzinger, the present Pope Benedict XVI, was an advisor to Vatican II and most certainly regarded it as the 21st Ecumenical Council. I’ve seen no evidence that he accepts only 7 councils as “Ecumenical,” and it would be very “unCatholic” of him to do so. That’s the Orthodox, not Catholic, position. The Orthodox split didn’t hold the Catholic Church hostage and prevent her from holding ecumenical councils as she perceived them necessary.

I’ve posted two sources that show the 21 Ecumenical Councils. Here’s one more, from another Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/library/almanac_14388a.htm

Jim Dandy
 
The idea that “Canon” being different from “Scripture” comes from the fathers of the Church use of these words. The fathers would list the Canon of Scripture from their perspective, yet they would use books not included in their lists and they would still call them “Scripture.”

With regards to the councils that are being brought up in this thread, such as Carthage, notice the phrase “that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures.”

To me this sounds like that what they are meaning here is that when it comes to the readings of the liturgy, these are the approved books(Canonical Scriptures) that are only to be read from, not that these are the only defined books of being Divinely Inspired. Again “Canon” and “Scripture” if they truly have, which I am lead to believe, different meanings.
The Fathers of the Church referred to some writings as “scripture” which didn’t make the cut when the canon was first defined in 382 and again affirmed in 383, 397, 419. Only “Scripture” is the “inspired Word of God.” The Church teaches that all the writings in the canon are the “Inspired Word of God.” Those outside the canon are not “inspired.”

Several Fathers had, in fact, drawn up their own list of books. The list that St. Athanasius compiled in his Festal (Easter) Letter of 367 contained the first list of the NT books that were the same as the NT defined at Rome, Hippo, and Carthage. But his list of Jewish writings is not the same as the OT specified by subsequent councils.

Please post a list of the writings defined as “Scripture” by the Catholic Church, that the Church says are “inspired,” that are not included in the canon. Thank you.

Jim Dandy
 
Dear brother Jim,
The Fathers of the Church referred to some writings as “scripture” which didn’t make the cut when the canon was first defined in 382 and again affirmed in 383, 397, 419. Only “Scripture” is the “inspired Word of God.” The Church teaches that all the writings in the canon are the “Inspired Word of God.” Those outside the canon are not “inspired.”

Several Fathers had, in fact, drawn up their own list of books. The list that St. Athanasius compiled in his Festal (Easter) Letter of 367 contained the first list of the NT books that were the same as the NT defined at Rome, Hippo, and Carthage. But his list of Jewish writings is not the same as the OT specified by subsequent councils.

Please post a list of the writings defined as “Scripture” by the Catholic Church, that the Church says are “inspired,” that are not included in the canon. Thank you.
I can assure you that brother Byzman is correct in his explanation. I think the problem may be that you think “Catholic Church” refers only to the Latin Catholic Church, or at least you are aware that there is more to the Church than the Latin section, but think that only the Tradition of the Latin portion matters.

As others have correctly stated - which you have not contemned - Trent did not close the Canon. It simply gave a list of books which must at the very least contain the books it enumerated.

Perhaps my Byzantine brethren will be so kind as to provide the statement by a Roman Pontiff to the effect that Trent’s statements on the Vulgate only applied to the Latin Church, and not the Eastern Churches. I am pretty sure it was made in reference to the union of one of the Byzantine Catholic Churches, but I don’t have the time right now to look for it. Perhaps if brother Neil (“Irish Melkite”) is reading this, he can provide the reference.

I will be back next week with explicit references from the Fathers on the matter. It will show that even when the early Fathers gave their local Church’s “canonical scriptures,” it did not prevent them from referring to other books as “Scripture” as well.

For now, I suggest reading Trent to see what Trent meant when it used the term “Canonical.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I just wanted to add that what I’ve read agrees with the explanation given by Mardukm and Byzman. The word “canon” derrives from the Greek word for “rule” or “measure” (literally “cane”), something which one uses to measure how straight something is. Canon was first used to refer to the dogmatic traditions which were used to demonstrate the orthodox faith in opposition to heresy. This is the origin of the term “rule of faith” (literally “canon of faith”), which is used as early as Tertullian in his work “Prescription Against Heretics” in about AD 200. The identification of the writings read in the churches and considered apostolic in authorship or content (i.e. Holy Scripture) with canon only took place later as they were quoted increasingly against heretics, and was used in the same sense as a “rule of faith”. This is an important point because Protestant polemicists misunderstand the origin of the canon of Holy Scripture, and the fact that it was Holy Tradition which first comprised the canon, not a list of writings, as St. Paul says: “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you” (1 Cor. 11:23). Holy Tradition is the “passing on” of the orthodox faith, in words or writings.
 
Dear brother Jim,

I can assure you that brother Byzman is correct in his explanation. I think the problem may be that you think “Catholic Church” refers only to the Latin Catholic Church, or at least you are aware that there is more to the Church than the Latin section, but think that only the Tradition of the Latin portion matters.

As others have correctly stated - which you have not contemned - Trent did not close the Canon. It simply gave a list of books which must at the very least contain the books it enumerated.

Perhaps my Byzantine brethren will be so kind as to provide the statement by a Roman Pontiff to the effect that Trent’s statements on the Vulgate only applied to the Latin Church, and not the Eastern Churches. I am pretty sure it was made in reference to the union of one of the Byzantine Catholic Churches, but I don’t have the time right now to look for it. Perhaps if brother Neil (“Irish Melkite”) is reading this, he can provide the reference.

I will be back next week with explicit references from the Fathers on the matter. It will show that even when the early Fathers gave their local Church’s “canonical scriptures,” it did not prevent them from referring to other books as “Scripture” as well.

For now, I suggest reading Trent to see what Trent meant when it used the term “Canonical.”

Blessings,
Marduk
Thanks! I’m keenly interested in any info you may have. Jim D
 
The Fathers of the Church referred to some writings as “scripture” which didn’t make the cut when the canon was first defined in 382 and again affirmed in 383, 397, 419. Only “Scripture” is the “inspired Word of God.” The Church teaches that all the writings in the canon are the “Inspired Word of God.” Those outside the canon are not “inspired.”

Several Fathers had, in fact, drawn up their own list of books. The list that St. Athanasius compiled in his Festal (Easter) Letter of 367 contained the first list of the NT books that were the same as the NT defined at Rome, Hippo, and Carthage. But his list of Jewish writings is not the same as the OT specified by subsequent councils.

Please post a list of the writings defined as “Scripture” by the Catholic Church, that the Church says are “inspired,” that are not included in the canon. Thank you.

Jim Dandy
To me this sounds like you are saying that the Church teaches those books outside the Canon are uninspired. No where is this found to be taught by the Church. In fact Trent speaks of the Canonical Scriptures as having been passed down from the Latin Vulgate, which has no place, in regards to tradition, in the Eastern Churches. Not saying that it couldnt, but how is this binding upon Christians in which there is no tradition for it?
 
To me this sounds like you are saying that the Church teaches those books outside the Canon are uninspired. No where is this found to be taught by the Church. In fact Trent speaks of the Canonical Scriptures as having been passed down from the Latin Vulgate, which has no place, in regards to tradition, in the Eastern Churches. Not saying that it couldnt, but how is this binding upon Christians in which there is no tradition for it?
The canon of Scriptures was defined by the undivided Catholic Church.

The question that opened this thread remains: Do the Eastern Catholic Churches accept the canon of “inspired” writings defined at the Council of Rome (A.D. 382) and affirmed at Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419) – and made dogma at Trent (1545-63), or is their Bible one of the several Orthodox Bibles?

I have said that “the canon of Scripture was proclaimed a dogma by the Council of Trent. It is therefore binding on the entire Catholic Church, both East and West. There are some Eastern Catholic Churches within the Catholic communion that use books from outside the canon in their liturgy because the Orthodox Churches out of which they were formed use them. This does not constitute those books as Scripture, but some people seem to think it does.”

I’d be glad to be corrected if you or anyone has contrary evidence. Thanks.

Jim Dandy
 
My Russian Catholic bible has 4 Maccabees, in the appendix, as does my Russian Orthodox bible.

Both have the same canon of books.

But it should also be noted that the additional books over the roman canon are not used in the Divine Liturgy readings.
Aramis, I would like such a Bible, since all I have are the Douay-Rheims and a bunch of modernist Catholic and Protestant translations - where did you get it? Where could I acquire your translation?
 
…Amicable relationships, if they did exist, does not make the two Churches to be in communion with each other. …
Everything you said is true, but it isn’t that simple. In Sicily and Calabria the Greek Church remained in communion with both the Pope of Rome (whom they accepted as their local primate) and the Patriarch of Constantinople until the Council of Florence. For example, in the 14th century St. Bartholomew of Simeri took a pilgrimage to Constantinople to visit the Ecumenical Patriarch, who sent him to Mount Athos to reform a certain monastery (the bios of St. Bartholomew is unclear as to which monastery). After a couple years, St. Bartholomew was convinced that he had done as much good as he could there, and he returned to Calabria to found his own monastery. Wishing it to be independent of the local Greek bishop, he went and got autonomy for the monastery from the Pope of Rome. In other words, he acted as if the schism didn’t exist.

In Venice, the Greek Church remained in communion with Rome through the 18th century. Nicolas Bulgaris is usually considered Orthodox - his Catechism is published by the Ecumenical Patriarchate - and yet that book is never once critical of the Latins, quotes several Popes and Cardinal Bona for justification of the legitimacy of using leavened bread for Consecration, and begins most chapters with quotations from “the Schoolmen” (always St. Thomas Aquinas). He lived in the same place at about the same time as St. Macarios of Corinth, who was certainly an Orthodox saint.

I have also read that the Church of Sinai remained in communion with Rome until the 1700s and several Russian metropolitans through the 19th century, though I cannot confirm or validate these claims.

On Mount Athos, a Benedictine monastery flourished through the 14th century when it died out. In 1213 while the “Crusaders” were despoiling Constantinople, a number of monasteries requested protection from Pope Innocent III, and the whole Holy Mountain became a fief of the Pope (without paying him any tithes, of course) for about a century.

The Bull of Union at the Council of Florence was signed by three Athonite abbots - Moses of the Great Lavra, Gerontios of Pantocrator, and Dorotheos of Vatopedi. In 1628 Father Ignatius of Vatopedi went to the Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith in Rome and declared that his monks were willing to embrace the Union of Florence; the profession of faith he made on behalf of them was kept secret for fear of the Turks.

Not long after in 1636 the Protaton Monastery opened up a school run by Roman Catholic priests. It closed when the priests died. And during the same century the Great Lavra even invited the Jesuits to open up a school and offered them a church and a plot of land, but for some reason the offer was left unrealized.

In a more recent era, my own former pastor as a Benedictine novice in his youth went to Athos with the blessing of his spiritual director, and was told by his new abbot (the holy Elder Aemilianos of Simonopetra, I believe) that “whatever you may come to believe while you are here, the Church of Rome is your mother and you must always love her”; he stayed there for twelve years. Orthodox students from Eastern Europe at my college will sometimes go to him or to a particularly holy and orthodox local Benedictine monk instead of the Orthodox churches nearby, and I have heard of other cases of Orthodox going to Eastern Catholic churches simply because they are looking for the best spiritual environment without particularly caring whether the church is in communion with Rome or not.

The well-known Jesuit theologian George Maloney (translator of St. Symeon the New Theologian, and author of a number of books including “The Mystic of Fire and Light: St. Symeon the New Theologian”, “A Theology of Uncreated Energies”, and “A History of Orthodox Theology Since 1453”) died being both a Jesuit and the pastor of a Russian Orthodox church. (Dominicans had also accepted Greek Orthodox bishops as their legitimate ordinaries after the 1054 schism, in their attempt to heal the situation.)

The Melkite Metropolitan Elias Zoghby proposed what came to be known as the “Zoghby Initiative”, by which they declare themselves in communion with both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, holding the Orthodox Faith and all it teaches and accepting communion with the Bishop of Rome according to the authority he practiced in the 1st millennium. Hundreds if not thousands of faithful and parishes accepted this, though it received a notice from Cardinal Ratzinger in the CDF (for the following reasons: The Patriarch of Antioch is not willing to accept it, it can only be legimitate if by the “Orthodox Faith” they understand that it is the same as the Catholic Faith, and if by the role of the bishop of Rome in the 1st millennium they acknowledge it to be the same as the role of the Bishop of Rome today).

Finally, many Russian Old Believers claimed they had never left communion with Rome (calling themselves the “Old Catholics”), and Vladimir Soloviev was quite adamant that the Pope had authority over the Russian Orthodox Church, that he himself had not left the Russian Orthodox Church by professing personal communion with Rome, and that in practice most if not all Russians accepted the spiritual authority of the Pope.

St. Alexander Nevsky was also said to have been in communion with Rome, and St. Theophan the Recluse was received in a Papal audience (though this was in a diplomatic function).

Although they aren’t officially in communion with the other Orthodox or the Catholics, in practice in Eritrea people will alternately practice in either the Tehawedo Church or the Roman Catholic Church depending on where they feel like going that Sunday. I have an acquaintance who was raised in both.
 
Jim Dandy:

It might clarify things if I repeat what dcointin and Marduk said in slightly different words. The East simply has a different understanding of inspiration and the canon and Scripture than the West. There is not as strong a distinction between the “inspired” books and the “non-inspired” books. The Holy Spirit is seen as working through and revealing Himself in the Church, and this includes the Church Fathers and all of Tradition as well as the books that happen to be in the Vulgate. This is not a “new revelation” in any Montanist sense (which is why the “canon” of Scripture was defined to begin with) - if anything we view “Revelation” as occurring in a single act called the Incarnation of Christ. The unfolding of this Revelation in the Church is of course acknowledged both the in East and in the West.

Eastern tradition stresses the unanimity of the saints - they speak the truth because they have been divinized, and divinization is likewise seen to be the source of the authority of the Ecumenical Councils (cf. Romanides’ The Ancestral Sin, for example). This does nto mean that individual Fathers or even synods may be wrong, but it is also true that individual passages in Scripture may contain historical or scientific errors. What is true and binding is what the Church teaches, not one’s private interpretation of Scripture.

Consequently, there is no reason for excluding books like 4 Esdras or 4 Maccabees if what they preach is the truth and they are the work of the Holy Spirit. They are not read in church - but neither is the Apocalypse of St. John, since its authenticity was still under dispute when we wrote the calendar. No Catholic East or West believes that “inspiration” means “dictation” (this is a Protestant notion); so the fact that they are written in human words is taken for granted anyway, and if such books are written with the mind of the Church then they too are inspired just as all good works and pious writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit - even if they might have been written by Gnostics (as is suspected in the case of the Protoevangelion of St. James).

The Protoevangelion of St. James was taught at a “Bible study” or adult education group at one Byzantine parish last summer.
 
Fresh wind for our discussion here! 😉

JimDandy and I have again been writing in the other thread:
Jim Dandy:
Hi, Esdra

Please, I again ask, post your evidence that any Eastern Catholic Church rejects the canon of the Council of Trent [which is the same as the Canons of the Councils of Rome (A.D. 382), Hippo (393) and Carthage, A.D. 397, 419, et al], or accepts some canon other than the one specified at Trent. Without evidence, your statements are mere personal opinion.

IMJ, you should not post these allegations without the evidence to support them. Others may read them be misled.

I’m willing to be persuaded, but you haven’t supplied the evidence.

Did you forget the Eastern Catholic thread you started? Haven’t seen you there in forever . . .

Peace, Jim Dandy//
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Esdra:
Hi

yes, I’ve started it. But I started it, as I don’t know about Eastern Catholicism. And I redirected you there, as I had supposed that the Eastern Catholics may know?
They don’t?
No, I have any proove…, sorry.
But for me it sounds logical: They have divine worship (like the EO) and as far as I got to know reading the one or other thread in the Eastern Catholic section, they hold also Eastern Orthodox Doctrine.
So, why shouldn’t they have the Eastern Orthodox canon as well? You see, I have an Eastern Orthodox (Russian) Bible at home. And there is a liturgical reading plan in it and I have found no other deuterocanonical readings, except those that are also excepted by the Catholic Church.
So, I guess, the additional deuterocanonicals are not even read in the EO!
But I’ll check, as soon as I am at home again! My German translation of the Septuagint arrived today, and there is also an Orthodox liturgical reading plan in!
And I added:
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Esdra:
Hi

now I know for sure: The additional Orthodox Deuterocanonicals in their Bibles are definitely NOT read during divine liturgy/mass. (I again checked in the liturgical reading plan in my German Septuagint!)
The only Deuterocanonicals I found are also Deuterocanonicals in the CC.

So, actually, since the additional Books are not read anyway our small dispute is spurious, isn’t it?

I mean, the EO and the Eastern Catholics can have so many books of the Septuagint in their bible they want. They are not used in mass anyway.
Aren’t Catholics also reading books outside the Canon? I am thinking of the Didache, or the Early Church Fathers, like Jerome or Clement of Rome etc? - But of course also not at mass. For me the situation with the canon of the Eastern Churches (in or not in union with Rome) is the same.
My dear Orthodox Friends:
Am I right what I am writing here?
Please feel free to correct me, if I wrote nonsense! 😉 As I really know little about the EO and Eastern Catholicism.

in Christ,
 
I grant that many situations may have existed where communion with Rome was not lost.

Generally speaking, however, it is safe to say the Great Schism with the Orthodox occured in 1054.
 
Fresh wind for our discussion here! 😉

JimDandy and I have again been writing in the other thread:

And I added:

My dear Orthodox Friends:
Am I right what I am writing here?
Please feel free to correct me, if I wrote nonsense! 😉 As I really know little about the EO and Eastern Catholicism.

in Christ,
It seems right to me, except that we don’t chant the Apocalypse of St. John in Liturgy either, because the readings were established before its canonicity was universally accepted. I’ve never heard an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic refer to the Apocalypse as “deuterocanonical” or “apocryphal”, though, and plenty of Orthodox commentaries have been written on it.

I have heard some Orthodox (not in communion with Rome) refer to the deuterocanon as being Scriptural or inspired but in a “lesser degree” than the other books - this I think is simply fuzzy thinking that occurs when you try to express the Eastern understanding of Scripture in Western terms, something that just doesn’t work. Eastern Catholics I suspect will usually regard them as fully canonical, since that is what the Church teaches. Liturgically it makes no difference since we all use the same readings - and the liturgical use of a book is really the biggest or most obvious sign of a book’s canonicity.

We Orthodox in communion with Rome (Eastern Catholics) do read books outside the Western canon as I’m sure Roman Catholics do; for example we used the Protoevangelion of James for a study group (or lecture series) at one parish. The Protoevangelion of James was translated by an Orthodox writer, Frederica Mathewes-Green, under the title “The Lost Gospel of Mary”, and we were all comfortably referring to the document as a “Gospel” even though you’ll never find a Bible (Orthodox or Catholic) that includes it.
 
Cecilianus, what a beautiful translation of the prayer known to us Latins as the Sub Tuum Praesidium:

“To your protection do we fly, O Mary Theotokos; despise, then, not our cry. From every peril shelter us, for you alone are immaculate – the Mother of God.”

Thanks!
 
Cecilianus, what a beautiful translation of the prayer known to us Latins as the Sub Tuum Praesidium:

“To your protection do we fly, O Mary Theotokos; despise, then, not our cry. From every peril shelter us, for you alone are immaculate – the Mother of God.”

Thanks!
🙂

I wish I could remember when we sing it - it’s a troparion (one of hymns in our Liturgy proper to a specific day). It’s one of my favorites.
 
Aramis, I would like such a Bible, since all I have are the Douay-Rheims and a bunch of modernist Catholic and Protestant translations - where did you get it? Where could I acquire your translation?
Christ is batized in the Jordan! Glorify Him!

I acquired the bible from Rev. Fr. Leo Walsh… when he cleaned out his office following his reposting to Washington, DC. Mind you, it’s in Russian… not in English. Where he got it, I know not.

However, the Orthodox canon OT in English is available at orthodoxengland.org.uk/zot.htm for your edification.
 
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