Canonization this year for Bl. Junipero Serra [CWN]

[Dusenberg]

Thank you!

I think I posted this here but, if not, it’s on my blog.

Haters of Father Serra and the church make claims they were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Indians.

The first mission was founded in 1769 and they were started to be taken away from the church in 1-]9/-]835. That is a period of 76 years! Those natives who died during that time were no more than what would have died of their own diseases, droughts, locust swarms, and hunger. And, if falling ill, had nobody to treat them back to help.

The truth be none, more natives were forced into serfdom after secularization where they were forced to work in rags and meager rations by those swearing allegiance to the newly independent Mexico.

Then came the Yankees! The slaughter was horrible - and unreported then and now. The current Indian reservations throughout California are the result of American government.

So, when detractors do their best to denigrate Reverend Father Serra, tell them to read the unbiased history and get it straight.

Not true. The mortality rate for the indigenous definitely rose during the Mission Period. It certainly wasn’t intentional or due to torture. It was largely due to disease and closer confinement (which precipitated the spread.) There was no widespread slaughter of natives by Yankees in Alta California.

Serra’s detractors however infer that had the Church and Serra not come in 1769, that nothing would have changed and their Shangri-la (not that it really was) would have continued.

That’s simply not the case. Secular interests would have eventually annihilated the natives and their culture beginning in the 1820’s. It would have been ALL OVER for them by statehood in 1850. There wouldn’t be anything or anyone left of the native peoples at all today had it not been for Serra and the Church.

 

[Dusenberg]

Is it true that Father Serra’s legacy included forced labor of converted Indians, and beatings and whippings of Indians?

Indigenous people were baptized, became Christians and took part in the life of their faith and their community – the individual California Mission where they learned skills and trades.

They were expected to take part in all aspects of their community. Were they “forced” to work as manacled slaves as some would like to suggest? Nope. Were they savagely beaten? Nope. Were they physically disciplined (as an adult might physically discipline their children today)? Yep.

Was their treatment in any way controversial based upon the standards of 18th and 19th Century Europe? Nope. Are they controversial compared to the standards of 2015? Yep.

Context is everything in this matter and many just love to ignore it.

 

[Memaw]

Indigenous people were baptized, became Christians and took part in the life of their faith and their community – the individual California Mission where they learned skills and trades.

They were expected to take part in all aspects of their community. Were they “forced” to work as manacled slaves as some would like to suggest? Nope. Were they savagely beaten? Nope. Were they physically disciplined (as an adult might physically discipline their children today)? Yep.

Was their treatment in any way controversial based upon the standards of 18th and 19th Century Europe? Nope. Are they controversial compared to the standards of 2015? Yep.

Context is everything in this matter and many just love to ignore it.

Isn’t that the truth. We judge the past by our modern standards or lack of truth. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

If anyone protests, it’ll be the ‘professional protester’ types, and those kinda people will never run out of things to protest.

Well, them, and certainly various Narive American groups as well. Around here we can’t even have Thanksgiving any more without multiple anti-European demonstrations across the state.

 

[LisaA]

Well, them, and certainly various Narive American groups as well. Around here we can’t even have Thanksgiving any more without multiple anti-European demonstrations across the state.

Not to mention how Columbus Day has been removed from various city and school calendars because you know if not for him Native American would have continued their Utopian existence.

 

[CatholicFireman]

Well, them, and certainly various Narive American groups as well. Around here we can’t even have Thanksgiving any more without multiple anti-European demonstrations across the state.

One of Bl. Serra’s biggest opponents to his canonization, Ed Castillo, is one of the protesters that occupied Alcatraz in the 1970s.

Here’s an old debate on the subject: archive.org/details/csth_00002

 

[lvcabbie]

Is it true that Father Serra’s legacy included forced labor of converted Indians, and beatings and whippings of Indians?

Everything depends upon one’s definition of the terms.

By 21st century standards, the friars were overstrict with those who VOLUNTARY came to the missions. Once they had learned the catechism and were baptized, they were expected to labor in the shops and fields to make the missions productive.

Each did according to his or her skills. Some of the very best vaqueros in the west were mission Indians.

The normal day went as follows:
Up early for morning prayers and a communal breakfast.
Young children and new arrivals were given 4 hours of instruction in church principles.
all the converts were then sent to the various tasks for the same period. Some worked at hard labor in the fields and the friars often worked by their sides. Smiths, carpenters, chandlers, and so on worked in their shops
All worked stopped with the call to noon meals and prayers.
That was followed by a two hour rest period or siesta,
New arrivals and children then received another two hours of classes while the others were more or less free to take care of their personal items - many craftsmen returned to their shops or tasks such as construction or decorating the chapel.
The bells rang for evening prayers and meals.
Afterwards, the converts usually gathered around the central plaza to meet and often listen to music taught to them by gifted friars.
All were in bed by sundown. Except the friars who often spent the night in prayer, punishing themselves for what they felt to be their sins.

Food for those toiling in the shops or fields was pozole, a gruel with bits or meat or fruit in it. The others ate simple atole, exactly what the friars ate. Tortillas were served at every meal.

The control several hundred Indians were five soldiers. They were directly responsible to the friars and not the military authorities

I’ve already explained the limitations and punishment of the converts.

 

[lvcabbie]

99% of pre-US California came from one man - Hubert H. Bancroft! A man with a minimal college education, mid-Western Protestant with a clear hatred of Papists - as he called them. After a not-so-illustrious career in his home area, he moved to San Francisco and got a job as an editor in one of the local publications. He talked the owners into creating a “historical documentation” of California prior to statehood. He then hired a number of “clerks” to go out and round up as much documentation as they could find for that period.

He then so-called “compiled” that information and proceeded to publish a series of “historical” tomes. This is the first of them:

THE WORKS OF HUBERT HOWE BANCROFT.

VOLUME XX.

HISTORY OF CALIFORNIA.

VOL. III. 1825-1840.

SAN FRANCISCO:
THE HISTORY COMPANY, PUBLISHERS.

Entered according to Act of Congress in the Year 1885, by

HUBERT H. BANCROFT,

In the Office of the Librarian of Congress, at Washington.

All Rights Reserved.

There are two more, as well as dozens more about the history of the various states. He was especially nasty when it came to the history of American Indians.

It is from this bigoted man that most California history school books are written.

So, it you’re gonna shoot off your mouth - at least do so with a bit of research behind your statements.

And, if you want to read some of his claims, read some of my blog posts from 2013. I know that will probably be too much for you so I won’t expect any more educated responses from you.

 

[Memaw]

Not to mention how Columbus Day has been removed from various city and school calendars because you know if not for him Native American would have continued their Utopian existence.

I thought it was the Protestants from England that raised war on the Native Americans. Are they misleading our children by golly??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[christofirst]

This is from Archbishop Gomez’s latest message about Fr. Serra from our diocesan newspaper the Tidings:

**"Padre Serra knew the writings and experience of the Dominican missionary, Bartolome de Las Casas, in Central America. Like Las Casas, Padre Serra was bold and articulate in fighting against the civil authorities to defend the humanity and rights of the indigenous peoples.

In my own study and reflection, I have come to the conclusion that Padre Serra should be remembered alongside Las Casas - as one of the pioneers of human rights and human development in the Americas.

His 1773 memorandum to the colonial viceroy in Mexico City is probably the first “bill of rights” published in North America. In this document, he advanced detailed practical recommendations for improving the spiritual and material wellbeing of California’s indigenoue people.

He criticized their cruel mistreatment at the hands of the colonial military commander and he urged that the commander be removed from office…

…The historical record confirms what Pope Francis believes: That Blessed Junipero Serra was a man of heroic virtue and holiness who had only one burning ambition - to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to the peoples of the New World.

Whatever human faults he may have had and whatever mistakes he may have made, there is no questioning he lived a life of sacrifice and self-denial."**

The rest can be read at www.angelusnews.com .

 

[lvcabbie]

I posted this on some non-Catholic forums and the usual anti-Papist, atheists, lefties came out of the woodwork with the usual non-factual garbage calling Father Serra a slave driving, beating piece of garbage responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of poor, innocent men and women living an idyllic life.

When I responded with facts and referred them to relevant books and articles on the subject, it did not surprise me when it shut up every single one of them!

If you’d like to read more about Father Serra and the missions, check out my blog. I strongly suggest you start at the first blogs starting in 2012. If anything, the spells out exactly why Father Serra deserves to be* El Santo Junipero*.

msgdaleday.blogspot.com

 

[Tomdstone]

I posted this on some non-Catholic forums and the usual anti-Papist, atheists, lefties came out of the woodwork with the usual non-factual garbage calling Father Serra a slave driving, beating piece of garbage responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of poor, innocent men and women living an idyllic life.

When I responded with facts and referred them to relevant books and articles on the subject, it did not surprise me when it shut up every single one of them!

If you’d like to read more about Father Serra and the missions, check out my blog. I strongly suggest you start at the first blogs starting in 2012. If anything, the spells out exactly why Father Serra deserves to be* El Santo Junipero*.

msgdaleday.blogspot.com

Do you say that there are no cases of American Indians being whipped and beaten by the Catholic missionaries?

 

[CaptFun]

sandiegohistory.org/books/pourade/explorers/explorerschapter7.htm

From “The History of San Diego”

nice read, continues in subsequent chapters.

As an Orange Countian I was proud to learn that the first baptisms in (what is now) California took place at a little spring just a couple of miles from my home (in an area located near where San Clemente, CA and the Camp Pendleton Marine Base meet.

The place was called Christianitos … and there is a Christianitos Rd. in San Clemente (an offramp on the 5 Freeway). There is supposedly a little marker by that spring. Serra wasn’t there, but the Baptisms were done by priests on their way to see him.

Some friendly natives encountered the journeying priests. They learned of two very sick little girls and asked to baptise them, which the parents, considered and assented to after being told how the priests believed that even if the children died, they could then go to heaven.

 

[Dusenberg]

Everything depends upon one’s definition of the terms.

By 21st century standards, the friars were overstrict with those who VOLUNTARY came to the missions. Once they had learned the catechism and were baptized, they were expected to labor in the shops and fields to make the missions productive.

Each did according to his or her skills. Some of the very best vaqueros in the west were mission Indians.

The normal day went as follows:
Up early for morning prayers and a communal breakfast.
Young children and new arrivals were given 4 hours of instruction in church principles.
all the converts were then sent to the various tasks for the same period. Some worked at hard labor in the fields and the friars often worked by their sides. Smiths, carpenters, chandlers, and so on worked in their shops
All worked stopped with the call to noon meals and prayers.
That was followed by a two hour rest period or siesta,
New arrivals and children then received another two hours of classes while the others were more or less free to take care of their personal items - many craftsmen returned to their shops or tasks such as construction or decorating the chapel.
The bells rang for evening prayers and meals.
Afterwards, the converts usually gathered around the central plaza to meet and often listen to music taught to them by gifted friars.
All were in bed by sundown. Except the friars who often spent the night in prayer, punishing themselves for what they felt to be their sins.

Food for those toiling in the shops or fields was pozole, a gruel with bits or meat or fruit in it. The others ate simple atole, exactly what the friars ate. Tortillas were served at every meal.

The control several hundred Indians were five soldiers. They were directly responsible to the friars and not the military authorities

I’ve already explained the limitations and punishment of the converts.

The friars’ disciplinary standards wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow in the USA until well into the 1950’s and likely the 1960’s. I’m certain Catholic high school students and seminarians (and a great many other students, including those attending public schools) were disciplined just as severely until the 1950’s/1960’s.

 

[Dusenberg]

Do you say that there are no cases of American Indians being whipped and beaten by the Catholic missionaries?

Do you say there are no cases of Native Americans being whipped and beaten by secular individuals, Protestants, Mormons, Jews, etc?

 

[Tomdstone]

Do you say there are no cases of Native Americans being whipped and beaten by secular individuals, Protestants, Mormons, Jews, etc?

So the Native Americans were whipped and beaten by the missionaries?

 

[Memaw]

The friars’ disciplinary standards wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow in the USA until well into the 1950’s and likely the 1960’s. I’m certain Catholic high school students and seminarians (and a great many other students, including those attending public schools) were disciplined just as severely until the 1950’s/1960’s.

Oh my, it’s a wonder they survived !! I think many of those tales are embellished a bit, especially by those that weren’t event here at the time. God Bless, Memaw

 

[lvcabbie]

Do you say that there are no cases of American Indians being whipped and beaten by the Catholic missionaries?

No, there were some - a rare event. And, when the mission president learned about it, the friar involved was often either removed from his position or sent back to Mexico.

When one thinks the missions existed under Francisco control for 66 years and there were generally two friars at each one of the 21 missions, the instances of such abuses is incredibly minute.

I repeatedly see reports that “one friar” accused Father Serra of abusing and enslaving the natives. But NOBODY will come up with a name or a valid link to prove it.

There was only one friar I know of who founded Mission San Francisco Solano WITHOUT the mission president’s prior approval, who ever wrote to complain about Indian treatment. The truth is, HE was attacked by converts for MISTREATING THEM!

 

[estesbob]

Is it true that Father Serra’s legacy included forced labor of converted Indians, and beatings and whippings of Indians?

No.

 

[Dusenberg]

So the Native Americans were whipped and beaten by the missionaries?

Is that your claim? Prove it.

Also, how does “whipped” differ from being “beaten”?