Can't get married outside?

[TheRealJuliane]

A person who marries civily violates canon law if they then go on and live as a married couple. A person who marries civily, lives separately as if not married, and then marries in the Church is perfectly compliant with the rules of the Church. **Therefore, a couple can get married by a justice of the peace on the beach, swing by the chapel or church, and get the sacramental part done (marriage license in hand) and then go on to the reception. **That’s not how you would have it done, and heck, it’s not how I would have it done either…but it can and does get done that way.

Your tone here is quite cavalier, and “swing by the chapel or church, and get the sacramental part done (marriage license in hand), and then go on to the reception,” does not seem like a respect for the sacred covenant of marriage at all. It is fitting God into your OWN idea of how you want things, not respecting the Church and her structure FIRST.

I think that’s the problem - people just get an idea of what they want to do, and work any requirements around that. The wedding becomes a show, and the covenant which is holy takes second or third or last place in all the other preparations (the non-sacred stuff).

 

[HolyCow21]

It becomes obvious that you need to learn the faith better if you are bowing to me. Still, I wish you well too. I had hoped that you would have gotten something out of this conversation (if not through my replies then someone else’s) but apparently not. God bless and take care.

I was being sarcastic in bowing to you since the only thing I learned nothing from you is how self righteous you are. Thanks again for participating although it has been a total waste of my time reading anything you have written in this thread. Thankfully, I did learn some things from others.

Enough of this pissing match though. Thanks to all those who made a genuine effort at replying to my questions.

 

[achmafooma]

HolyCow21 - sorry to see that this discussion took such a turn away from Christian charity.

While my post (from much earlier in the thread) might have come across as a trite ‘Why wouldn’t you want to do it in the Church?’, my intent was to point out that God established His Church as the keeper of His Sacraments, and it is most fitting that weddings (and the other Sacraments when possible) be celebrated in the Church whenever possible.

That doesn’t mean that the Sacraments are less valid elsewhere, or that they can’t ever happen elsewhere, but merely that we have a place set aside for the celebration of the Sacraments and that place is thus the ideal place for them.

This is the answer to your original question about why the Church has this rule. Marriage in the Church is the normative way of doing it for Catholics, like it is the normative way of celebrating almost every other Sacrament. At the Bishop’s discretion we may deviate from this norm when there are good reasons. Some Bishops, indeed, are more or less willing to allow those deviations.

I certainly meant my previous comments and this one in the spirit of Christian charity and love, and in an effort to explain the Church’s reasons for having this rule. God bless you!

 

[Rence]

Just wondering if it’s possible you have confused “marriage license” with “marriage certificate”. In order to be married in any venue (in the US) where I’ve lived, any couple has to get a marriage license at at city hall, or the courthouse, within a specified period of time before the wedding. Simply getting the license does not constitute a “civil marriage”, only the license to marry. There is then a marriage “certificate” issued and signed by the priest, attesting to the Church wedding, which is also recognized by civil authority.

Well, they wouldn’t have been able to make the name change (along with all the other legal paperwork they went through -like insurance paperwork) without the marriage certificate. They did all that before the Church wedding. And they didn’t get their marriage “blessed” by the priest afterwards, they got married.

 

[Rence]

In my understanding it is the norm in many countries outside the US, where the priest is NOT an agent of the state.

That’s a good point. I wonder if, though the Vatican is located in Italy, are priests agents of the state there.

 

[Phemie]

Well, they wouldn’t have been able to make the name change (along with all the other legal paperwork they went through -like insurance paperwork) without the marriage certificate. They did all that before the Church wedding. And they didn’t get their marriage “blessed” by the priest afterwards, they got married.

Well, yes, because what people call ‘getting my marriage blessed’ IS a wedding. Many people who haven’t gone through it just aren’t aware that that’s what it is.

 

[joandarc2008]

That’s a good point. I wonder if, though the Vatican is located in Italy, are priests agents of the state there.

I don’t know about Italy but I do know German law does not allow for Catholic clergy to sign off on marriage certificates. The practice in Germany is that the couple is married legally first (but continues to live separately) and then married Sacramentally by the Church.

 

[1ke]

And they didn’t get their marriage “blessed” by the priest afterwards, they got married.

As has been pointed out, many people call it “getting their marriage blessed” by the Church. What they are really doing is having a convalidation.

 

[RazzsMom]

My sister is getting married later this year. She and her fiance want an outdoor wedding. My mom was told by 2 priests separately that The Church does not allow that; they are only allowed to preform marriages inside the church. One of them also told my mom that this is due to a large number of changes that were instituted in the late 80s. Anybody know about this?

Wow.

I read this thread during my lunch break and I had to go back to your 1st post to make sure who and what was originally said! (I also had to put the fire out on my computer a few times! The conversation certainly got heated! )

Anyway - Here are a few random thoughts.

My sister was married outdoors in a state park. (No one was Catholic at th time.) It was August. It was hot. It was windy. I am a redhead and pale-skinned and was very uncomfortable the entire time. Also - due to the wind and all the bridesmaids wearing large picture hats - we all look disheveled and uncomfortable in the pictures.

My husband and I were not Catholics when we were married, but we did want a “church wedding”. So we were married in a small Protestant church. Twelve years later, we both converted to the Catholic Church. (long story) So - when we were coming up to our Silver Wedding Anniversary, I asked him if he would like to have our marriage “blessed” (convalidated) in the Church. He said, “Sure, if that will get me out of having to find a pefect gift for you!” (He is a jokester! ) We did this in our parish’s chapel with our son and daughter as “Best Man” and “Maid of Honor”. (We would have asked the original participants, but, sadly, they were both deceased.) We had about 30 people there, I wore a nice pantsuit and he wore a suit, we had a reception complete with a wedding cake topped with a silver “25” on top. Very nice. So now we were married in the eyes of the Church. That is possible for your sister, as well. Except for the 25 years wait…they don’t have to do that part. lol

Several people spoke of having the wedding take place in the Church and the reception outdoors. I absolutely think that would be the best solution and would not have to go through “channels”. If the idea is a Grand Walk Down The Aisle outdoors…they can have that at the reception! I have attended a few weddings that the couple were announced and had a white runner they walked upon at the reception. It looks very nice for pictures. If it is the saying vows outdoors that they like the idea of — who is to say they cannot say vows outside at the reception? The couple can stand at a mic and have the sun setting behind them, hold hands and face each other and then repeat the vows they made inside the Church or (even better) say different ones - ones they wrote for each other! How romantic would THAT be?!? And have photos taken of this. (Because most Catholic Churches don’t allow the photographer to take pics at/during the ceremony.)

Just a word about the Great Outdoors: Make sure you have a back-up place to hold the reception. It will not be fun if it rains or was raining for some days prior to the wedding and the ground is a muddy mess.

I hope your sister has a TERRIFIC wedding and married life! All best wishes and Blessings as she and her DH begin the best time of their lives as a couple!

 

[Phemie]

My husband and I were not Catholics when we were married, but we did want a “church wedding”. So we were married in a small Protestant church. Twelve years later, we both converted to the Catholic Church. (long story) So - when we were coming up to our Silver Wedding Anniversary, I asked him if he would like to have our marriage “blessed” (convalidated) in the Church. He said, “Sure, if that will get me out of having to find a pefect gift for you!” (He is a jokester! ) We did this in our parish’s chapel with our son and daughter as “Best Man” and “Maid of Honor”. (We would have asked the original participants, but, sadly, they were both deceased.) We had about 30 people there, I wore a nice pantsuit and he wore a suit, we had a reception complete with a wedding cake topped with a silver “25” on top. Very nice. So now we were married in the eyes of the Church. That is possible for your sister, as well. Except for the 25 years wait…they don’t have to do that part. lol

And here I’ll jump in with the mandatory “everything we said doesn’t apply if both were non-Catholics”:

Because neither of you was Catholic when you first got married in your small Protestant church your marriage didn’t need to be convalidated, it was valid and you were considered married in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Had it been any different you would have had to have your marriage convalidated at the time you converted. On your 25th anniversary you renewed your vows in the Catholic Church. It was a lovely ceremony, I’m sure, and one that is dear to your heart, just like my Mom & Dad’s renewal of vows was to them when they did it on their 25th anniversary, but one that had no impact on the validity of your marriage in the eyes of the Church. Perfect occasion for a party, though.

 

[Rence]

As has been pointed out, many people call it “getting their marriage blessed” by the Church. What they are really doing is having a convalidation.

I understand that But when my mom got married last, everyone including the priest, called it a marriage and a wedding. Again, I’d never heard of the word “convalidation” until reading it on this forum. Since the priest himself referred to it as a wedding and as a marriage, and never a convalidation or a blessing on a marriage, that’s what it was. Of course, I wasn’t around when the first two happened, so I can’t say with the degree of certainty that I can with the last one. But there is no reason for me to believe it was any different.

 

[1ke]

My husband and I were not Catholics when we were married, but we did want a “church wedding”. So we were married in a small Protestant church. Twelve years later, we both converted to the Catholic Church. (long story) So - when we were coming up to our Silver Wedding Anniversary, I asked him if he would like to have our marriage “blessed” (convalidated) in the Church. He said, “Sure, if that will get me out of having to find a pefect gift for you!” (He is a jokester! ) We did this in our parish’s chapel with our son and daughter as “Best Man” and “Maid of Honor”. (We would have asked the original participants, but, sadly, they were both deceased.) We had about 30 people there, I wore a nice pantsuit and he wore a suit, we had a reception complete with a wedding cake topped with a silver “25” on top. Very nice. So now we were married in the eyes of the Church. That is possible for your sister, as well. Except for the 25 years wait…they don’t have to do that part. lol

Congratulations on your reception into the Catholic Church.

Let’s be clear here, though. You did not have a convalidation. Your marriage was valid at the time you exchanged vows as non-Catholics and recognized by the Church **unless **you had some impediment to valid marriage such as prior marriages that needed annulment. You would not have been able to be received into the Church or receive the sacraments of intiation if your marriage was invalid. Your marriage situation would have been taken care of at that time.

If you had no prior bonds or other impediments, you could not possibly convalidate your marriage. Convalidation makes that which is *invalid *into a valid marriage. Your marriage was valid as non-Catholics.

In the Catholic Church, you might have renewed your vows and probably received the Nuptial Blessing (which can be received by anyone who hasn’t already received it). That is not the same as a convalidation.

 

[NHInsider]

As has been pointed out, many people call it “getting their marriage blessed” by the Church. What they are really doing is having a convalidation.

Indeed - the ritual is essentially indistinguishable, or at least DD#2’s was - the same Scriptures, same questions, the same vows, the same blessings that DD#1 had at her sacramental wedding. The priest even took the time to give a very thoughtful homily - even though there was no one there but the bride and groom and the bride’s parents.

in my diocese, case #2 would easily have seen the Bishop grant dispensations from form and for disparity of cult and the priest would probably have had nothing further to do with the wedding. He definitely wouldn’t officiate though he could certainly attend and give a blessing. The exchange of vows would be witnessed by either a minister from another Church or a judge or a JP.

That’s just what did happen, and she was married out of doors by a cousin’s husband who is a Christian “minister of the gospel” in this state, with the convalidation (and they did call it that, so now I’m confused) scheduled in advance for 2 weeks later (because they had to wait until the marriage certificate came from the state. . . .)

DD#1 was married in a different diocese, and they approved her being married by her priest (actually her college chaplain, who had done their marriage prep and all) in a tiny chapel near the outdoor site, parents and honor attendants only, while a friend who is a JP witnessed them repeat their vows in front of a couple of hundred people and signed off on the civil contract. So she didn’t actually need a dispensation in the end. They had two sets of readings, one in the chapel and others on the hillside, and the JP didn’t ask them if they were being married of their own free will and if they were open to childrren.

The possibility of splitting the ceremony in that way was floated in the planning for DD#2’s wedding, and rejected by my diocese (I don’t think the bishop actual reviews these requests, btw, I’m pretty sure chancery does . . .)

 

[catharina]

So, the world and the nature that God, Himself, made and gave to us isn’t sacred enough? And who are any of us to judge the intent of anybody who desires an outdoor wedding by saying it’s for a photo op?

As for the rest of the reasons you wrote about in your reply… Are you saying the Catholic Church doesn’t allow outdoor weddings to protect us from the elements and potential man-made hazards?

The Church (Catholic churches) is a sacred space. It is a consecrated space and its sole and constant Resident is Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

If this is news to anyone, then sorry about that. It is NOT new news.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Congratulations on your reception into the Catholic Church.

Let’s be clear here, though. You did not have a convalidation. Your marriage was valid at the time you exchanged vows as non-Catholics and recognized by the Church **unless **you had some impediment to valid marriage such as prior marriages that needed annulment. You would not have been able to be received into the Church or receive the sacraments of intiation if your marriage was invalid. Your marriage situation would have been taken care of at that time.

If you had no prior bonds or other impediments, you could not possibly convalidate your marriage. Convalidation makes that which is *invalid *into a valid marriage. Your marriage was valid as non-Catholics.

In the Catholic Church, you might have renewed your vows and probably received the Nuptial Blessing (which can be received by anyone who hasn’t already received it). That is not the same as a convalidation.

What if one or both had been married before, outside the Catholic Church? And then gotten divorced, and married each other but not in the Church? What would they have to go through in order to be married? Would they have to live apart before annulment and convalidation? I am still confused about this term and what it means. We married civilly although both of us are cradle Catholics. We had what we thought was a blessing or renewal of our vows on our 10th anniversary, after I had been confirmed as an adult. We had a few things to clear up but then I assumed we were married in the eyes of the Church. Was I wrong? I will have to look at the certificate we got on that day.

 

[Sarabande]

Only one time have I experienced an actual Catholic wedding outside and was very surprised. Now, before anyone jumps in and says that this priest must have been one of those laicized rent-a-priests (which I initially assumed as well), this was not the case. He was an order priest who was granted permission by the diocese to perform this outdoor wedding for a couple in a mixed marriage. The bride was Protestant and the groom was Catholic (also from another country). They got a dispensation to have the wedding outside and this particular diocese also granted permission to the priest to marry them. I didn’t think this was possible, but I also didn’t know all of the circumstances involved. I can’t imagine this being permitted without special reason.

 

[joandarc2008]

Only one time have I experienced an actual Catholic wedding outside and was very surprised. Now, before anyone jumps in and says that this priest must have been one of those laicized rent-a-priests (which I initially assumed as well), this was not the case. He was an order priest who was granted permission by the diocese to perform this outdoor wedding for a couple in a mixed marriage. The bride was Protestant and the groom was Catholic (also from another country). They got a dispensation to have the wedding outside and this particular diocese also granted permission to the priest to marry them. I didn’t think this was possible, but I also didn’t know all of the circumstances involved. I can’t imagine this being permitted without special reason.

sounds like the couple did their homework and took it seriously - good for them!!!

 

[Phemie]

What if one or both had been married before, outside the Catholic Church?

And then gotten divorced, and married each other but not in the Church? What would they have to go through in order to be married?

The answer depends on whether they were Catholic or not at the time of the first wedding and how that wedding(s) was conducted…

Would they have to live apart before annulment and convalidation?

It certainly would be the right way to do things.

I am still confused about this term and what it means. We married civilly although both of us are cradle Catholics.

If you didn’t have a dispensation from your bishop to do so, it wasn’t a valid marriage.

We had what we thought was a blessing or renewal of our vows on our 10th anniversary, after I had been confirmed as an adult. We had a few things to clear up but then I assumed we were married in the eyes of the Church. Was I wrong? I will have to look at the certificate we got on that day.

If everything was as you say, you had a simple convalidation on the 10th anniversary of your civil wedding. You exchanged consent (spoke your vows) in front of a priest or deacon and your marriage became valid in the Church that day. As far as the Church is concerned, it wasn’t a “renewal of vows” since this was the first time you were speaking those vows in the Church, it was a wedding.

 

[1ke]

What if one or both had been married before, outside the Catholic Church? And then gotten divorced, and married each other but not in the Church? What would they have to go through in order to be married?

If they had been previously married, Catholic form would only be an issue if one or both parties of the prior marriage(s) were Catholics.

To marry in the Church each spouse would have to be declared free to marry. This would mean their prior marriage(s) would have to be found null by a Catholic Church tribunal. Or, they would have to receive a dissolution of the bond (Pauline or Petrine Privilege) if there were grounds for that.

Would they have to live apart before annulment and convalidation?

That would depend on several factors including whether or not they had young children, etc. Pastorally, the priest may not require this of them if it would cause financial hardship or if young children are involved so as not to traumatize them. So, the couple could live chastely in the same house (i.e. “as brother and sister”, no sex).

I am still confused about this term and what it means. We married civilly although both of us are cradle Catholics. We had what we thought was a blessing or renewal of our vows on our 10th anniversary, after I had been confirmed as an adult. We had a few things to clear up but then I assumed we were married in the eyes of the Church. Was I wrong? I will have to look at the certificate we got on that day.

You can call the parish and ask them to look at your sacramental record and see if a marriage convalidation is recorded for you.

 

[RazzsMom]

And here I’ll jump in with the mandatory “everything we said doesn’t apply if both were non-Catholics”:

Because neither of you was Catholic when you first got married in your small Protestant church your marriage didn’t need to be convalidated, it was valid and you were considered married in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Had it been any different you would have had to have your marriage convalidated at the time you converted. On your 25th anniversary you renewed your vows in the Catholic Church. It was a lovely ceremony, I’m sure, and one that is dear to your heart, just like my Mom & Dad’s renewal of vows was to them when they did it on their 25th anniversary, but one that had no impact on the validity of your marriage in the eyes of the Church. Perfect occasion for a party, though.

You are right – I was reaching for the right words while trying to eat — doesn’t always work! lol Anyway - I think the Priest did call it a renewal of our vows. And it was a great party!! And somehow, now that we were Catholic, I felt “more married”!

Thank you for the correction and kind words.