Can't learn about salvation by reading scripture alone?

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According to the adult catechism regarding salvation and scripture it is written:

“Can you learn to save your soul just by reading the Bible? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught.”

But the following verse of scripture seems to contradict this point.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I don’t think “are able to make thee” indicates a lack of information on the scripture part. So it seems to me to be pretty absolute that one can learn how to save their soul from reading the bible.

How does the RC explain the passage in 2 tim?

Thanks,
Jeff
 
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jphilapy:
According to the adult catechism regarding salvation and scripture it is written:

“Can you learn to save your soul just by reading the Bible? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught.”

But the following verse of scripture seems to contradict this point.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I don’t think “are able to make thee” indicates a lack of information on the scripture part. So it seems to me to be pretty absolute that one can learn how to save their soul from reading the bible.

How does the RC explain the passage in 2 tim?

Thanks,
Jeff
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Scripture is Gods Holy Word, but,God is not trapped in Scripture.And we don’t save our soul Jesus does.God Bless
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Scripture is Gods Holy Word, but,God is not trapped in Scripture.And we don’t save our soul Jesus does.God Bless
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a) How does learning about salvation from scripture have anything to do with God not being trapped in scripture?

b) How does learning about salvation from scripture equate to not letting Jesus save our soul?

Scripture points you to trust in God right?
Jeff
 
Firstly, RC?
2nd, Look in the other letter to Timothy chapter 3:15 & note that Paul tells him plainly that the pillar and foundation of the truth is the church. Nowhere in the whole Bible does it ever claim to be the sole source of the deposit of faith. It just isn’t there…it’s interpretted into certain passages by non-Catholics, but it really isn’t there if you read 'em with an honest and open heart.

3rd, Salvation is more complex (as is all of Christianity) and beautiful than most people realize. One can get a pretty good idea of the need for salvation from the Bible, but consider this. The Bible as we have it today did not exist at the time Paul wrote this to Timothy, but there was no definitive canon saying what books were inspired for another 350 years or so. See the Councils of Hippo & Carthage in 393 & 397 AD respectively for that.

Very few people could read at that time in history, so getting it from the Bible was near impossible. Also keep in mind that books were really scrolls and parchments back then, & were prohibitively expensive since someone actually had to hand copy them. The “printed word” didn’t come into being for another 1200 years or so. It’s hard for me to see how anyone can say that the Bible is all sufficient in the light of these historical facts. It certainly WASN’T in the early church for about1500 years.

Also-consider that Jesus didn’t pen not even one blessed word of any of it Himself. Sure He knew that men would write what they did, but he never told them to or wrote anything at all. The NT is the writings of a very small group of believers. Not even all the apostles wrote any of it. Of the 8 known writers that are in the NT 3 were not original apostles, though the rest were and even then less than half the apostles penned anything.

In fact…Jesus did not commision anyone to write anything at all. He didn’t found a written work, he founded a church & commisioned them to preach & teach…not to write.What was handed down by word of mouth helps us understand salvation along with the Bible and corroborates and assures that we have an accurate interpretation of what the Bible says.

If the Bible by itself is sufficient for salvation, then how can those who cannot read it be saved? There are such people in the world even today. Sola Scriptura just doesn’t make any sense. And the folks I know who love it most leave out passages like John 6, 1st Cor 10:16, 1st Cor 11:23-29, & John 20:19-23 because they are so clearly in line w/Catholic teaching. I know this because I WAS Southern Baptist & Assembly of God for many years. They don’t deal w/these passages and when they get to them in their daily readings they just sort of “read around” them because it just doesn’t fit w/the way the preachers teach.
 
Church Militant:
Firstly, RC?
2nd, Look in the other letter to Timothy chapter 3:15 & note that Paul tells him plainly that the pillar and foundation of the truth is the church. Nowhere in the whole Bible does it ever claim to be the sole source of the deposit of faith. It just isn’t there…it’s interpretted into certain passages by non-Catholics, but it really isn’t there if you read 'em with an honest and open heart.
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RC = Roman Catholic. I use it so I can make it clear that I mean you folks so that when I wanna refer to Eastern Orthodox I can say EO. EO call themselves the Catholic Church to. So I don’t mean anything negative with RC.

Now I was hoping that you would explain to me what the passage means.

And yes the jews did have the scripture. 2Ti 3:15 is referring to the jewish scriptures (torah/prophets/writings) They had the old testament. A jew was expected to know scripture well {memorize it / read it}. And scripture was read often in synagogue. So yes. And the fact that some people cannot read does not mean that the scripture does not contain the complete salvation message. As an example Just because you can’t read, doesn’t mean I can’t read it to you, or someone cant teach you. And this goes ditto for people who leave out verses. Just because they leave em out does not indicate that scripture is incapable of teaching the salvation message. If you wanna get technical abraham got saved without scripture, a pope, a catholic church etc.

Thanks.
Jeff
 
Also what is it that the scripture to not teach about salvation that the Roman Catholic church does?
 
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jphilapy:
RC = Roman Catholic. I use it so I can make it clear that I mean you folks so that when I wanna refer to Eastern Orthodox I can say EO. EO call themselves the Catholic Church to. So I don’t mean anything negative with RC.

Now I was hoping that you would explain to me what the passage means.

And yes the jews did have the scripture. 2Ti 3:15 is referring to the jewish scriptures (torah/prophets/writings) They had the old testament. A jew was expected to know scripture well {memorize it / read it}. And scripture was read often in synagogue. So yes. And the fact that some people cannot read does not mean that the scripture does not contain the complete salvation message. As an example Just because you can’t read, doesn’t mean I can’t read it to you, or someone cant teach you. And this goes ditto for people who leave out verses. Just because they leave em out does not indicate that scripture is incapable of teaching the salvation message. If you wanna get technical abraham got saved without scripture, a pope, a catholic church etc.

Thanks.
Jeff
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The scriptures didn’t save abraham Jesus did.Jesus also, set up the Church and the magestarium and gave them the power to bind and loose.God Bless
 
Also what is it that the scripture (New Testament and Old Testament) does not teach about salvation that the Roman Catholic church does? Or what knowledge is not in the scriptures (New Testament and Old Testament) that is needed for salvation?
 
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jphilapy:
Also what is it that the scripture (New Testament and Old Testament) does not teach about salvation that the Roman Catholic church does? Or what knowledge is not in the scriptures (New Testament and Old Testament) that is needed for salvation?
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First off, Our Holy Catholic Church put The Bible into Canon and we hear scripture every Mass and the homily aka(sermon is on that days gospel reading. The Catholic Church interperates scripture ,so there will be understanding. Scripture does not touch on the issue of cloning, embryonic stem cell issues, which are gravely immoral and an affront to God.Contraception is also gravely immoral and until 1933 all non-catholic christians were against it as well.When Jesus told Peter that satan intended to sift us like wheat,he told him He had prayed for him and asked him to feed his sheep.I don’t have my Bible at the computer but if I need to get it to give you the whole verse I’ll be glad to. God Bless
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
First off, Our Holy Catholic Church put The Bible into Canon and we hear scripture every Mass and the homily aka(sermon is on that days gospel reading. The Catholic Church interperates scripture ,so there will be understanding. Scripture does not touch on the issue of cloning, embryonic stem cell issues, which are gravely immoral and an affront to God.Contraception is also gravely immoral and until 1933 all non-catholic christians were against it as well.When Jesus told Peter that satan intended to sift us like wheat,he told him He had prayed for him and asked him to feed his sheep.I don’t have my Bible at the computer but if I need to get it to give you the whole verse I’ll be glad to. God Bless
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Lisa I thank you for your explanation. I do think though we are miscomunicating in some ways. It just dawned on me that my understanding of salvation is different than yours. When you think of salvation you mean the end process when God will judge us and what will he judge us for.

When I think of salvation I mean that one can learn all the knowledge they need to receive the Life of God by reading scripture alone.

What is your /RCs take on that?

Jeff
 
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jphilapy:
According to the adult catechism regarding salvation and scripture it is written:

“Can you learn to save your soul just by reading the Bible? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught.”

Jeff
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what is the “adult catechism” you are quoting from? If you are quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, please provide the relevant paragraph numbers and provide the entire passage. Thank you.
 
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puzzleannie:
what is the “adult catechism” you are quoting from? If you are quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, please provide the relevant paragraph numbers and provide the entire passage. Thank you.
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I don’t know. I copied it off a website and he just said on page 52 of the Catechism for Adults.

I have both the “Catechism of the Catholic Church second edition” printed in 1997 and “The Teaching of Christ - Catholic Catechism for Adults” printed in 1977

I couldn’t find the quote in either.

Jeff
 
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jphilapy:
Lisa I thank you for your explanation. I do think though we are miscomunicating in some ways. It just dawned on me that my understanding of salvation is different than yours. When you think of salvation you mean the end process when God will judge us and what will he judge us for.

When I think of salvation I mean that one can learn all the knowledge they need to receive the Life of God by reading scripture alone.

What is your /RCs take on that?

Jeff
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Well knowledge per say of scripture is worthless if it does not bear fruit.What I mean by that is in order to attain salvation you have to accept Gods graces.Jesus said some people would hear but wouldn’t understand.So as far as even to attain the knowledge requires cooperating with the graces given by Jesus.God Bless
 
Hi Jeff:

This is just my opinion, but I would say that most Catholics would agree that a person can learn about salvation by reading scripture alone, but reading scripture DOES NOT GIVE anyone salvation. One of the turning points in my conversion from being a protestant to becoming a member in the Holy Catholic Church was realizing that Jesus left us with His Church. He didn’t leave us with the Bible. Therefore, the fullness of what Christ has to give us is found only in His Church. Certainly the Bible is a part of the Church (after all, it is the Church Herself that gave the Scriptures to the World), and therefore non-Catholic Christians have a certain measure of truth, but as long as they are outside of the Church, they don’t have the fullness of that faith. There’s a metaphor I remember hearing that says something like, “Non-Catholic Christians can smell the beautiful fragrance of the Rose, but we as Catholics actually have the Rose.”

In faith,
Fiat
 
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the clarification.
The Bible is one of the ways in which we come to know God best, though even it says that man can come to know God through the works of His hands.
St, Jerome said, “Ignorance of the Bible is ignorance of Christ” & all Catholics would agree with that statement I think.
I believe that the essentials of salvation can be known from scripture reading, but who wants to be “essentially saved” :ehh: I personally want the fullness of the truth and the fullness of God (one & the same) and I believe, after long and careful study, that the Catholic Church best contains it .
I am wondering if you ask this as a prelude to the discussion of the belief that the Bible alone is the deposit of faith?
I agree with Lisa’s excellent answer that the Bible saves no one…Jesus does and that Abraham was saved w/o any one the things we have today.Though the sacrifice of Christ “From the foundation of the world” is what saved him and all of us, right? Yet that was prior to “the fulness of time” as St.Paul calls it wasn’t it?
There are some things that are open-ended about Christianity, such as St. John’s statement in John 21:25 and the fact that St. Jude quotes as scripture in his epistle 2 books that are not canon, but are simply accepted as traditional Jewish writings to name just a couple. My above post dealt w/some of the issues of canonicity & the authority of the Catholic Church to define what actually is scripture.
Does this help a bit? :bible1: :coffee:
Pax tecum.
 
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Fiat:
Hi Jeff:

This is just my opinion, but I would say that most Catholics would agree that a person can learn about salvation by reading scripture alone, but reading scripture DOES NOT GIVE anyone salvation. One of the turning points in my conversion from being a protestant to becoming a member in the Holy Catholic Church was realizing that Jesus left us with His Church. He didn’t leave us with the Bible. Therefore, the fullness of what Christ has to give us is found only in His Church. Certainly the Bible is a part of the Church (after all, it is the Church Herself that gave the Scriptures to the World), and therefore non-Catholic Christians have a certain measure of truth, but as long as they are outside of the Church, they don’t have the fullness of that faith. There’s a metaphor I remember hearing that says something like, “Non-Catholic Christians can smell the beautiful fragrance of the Rose, but we as Catholics actually have the Rose.”

In faith,
Fiat
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Very well put Fiat! I wish I’d said that. 😉
 
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jphilapy:
According to the adult catechism regarding salvation and scripture it is written:

“Can you learn to save your soul just by reading the Bible? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught.”

But the following verse of scripture seems to contradict this point.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I don’t think “are able to make thee” indicates a lack of information on the scripture part. So it seems to me to be pretty absolute that one can learn how to save their soul from reading the bible.

How does the RC explain the passage in 2 tim?

Thanks,
Jeff
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Read the passage again – “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

Now at that time, there was no New Testament (and would not be for nearly 350 years.) So where in scripture would Timothy find Jesus Christ?

Does Paul tell Timothy to reject Jesus Christ because He isn’t in scripture?

No. In this one sentence Paul sums up a basic Christian doctrine – that Jesus came to fulfil the scripture of the Jews, and that therefore the Old Testament is a preparatory for the coming of Christ – but isn’t the Coming itself!
 
jphilapy,

“Lisa I thank you for your explanation. I do think though we are miscomunicating in some ways. It just dawned on me that my understanding of salvation is different than yours. When you think of salvation you mean the end process when God will judge us and what will he judge us for.”

Your big problem is that you have not addressed (answered) the post of Church Militant, that was post #4. You ignored it! He cannot help you if you ignore what he said! See Tim 3:15.

You say that Lisa and you are talking past each other, miscomunicating. It is incombant on you, the questioner, to pay attention and to use the same words that she does. Lets clear up one thing. When you use the word “salvation”, just what do you mean? That is a start. Lisa4 has asnwered properly too. Do you know what Tradition actually is?
 
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jphilapy:
According to the adult catechism regarding salvation and scripture it is written:

“Can you learn to save your soul just by reading the Bible? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught.”

But the following verse of scripture seems to contradict this point.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I don’t think “are able to make thee” indicates a lack of information on the scripture part. So it seems to me to be pretty absolute that one can learn how to save their soul from reading the bible.

How does the RC explain the passage in 2 tim?

Thanks,
Jeff
Click to expand...
Even from a Protestant point of view we cannot earn our salvation. That would be ‘works salvation’ of which Protestants disagree with wholeheartedly.

We cannot learn to save our souls from reading the Bible. Nor as one person put it can we accept God’s Graces. Grace is a gift given of God, usually as an infant to most Christians. At best or worst we can reject it.

We do not save our Soul, our souls were saved 2000 years ago, we can only damn them at this point.
 
Hi Folks,

I am going to give a general reply because I don’t have the time to reply to every single person here.

First CM you asked:
I am wondering if you ask this as a prelude to the discussion of the belief that the Bible alone is the deposit of faith?

Are you asking me if I am trying to start a debate on the topic so I can prove you folks wrong?
If that is your question, then no. I am trying to gain a better understanding of the catholic view of scripture.

Now for my general reply.

First of all folks not all protestants are ignorant or believe the same thing. Most of the folks I know, do not believe the bible can save you. They believe that only Jesus can save you, but that he can do it however he wants. For example Abraham was not saved by reading scripture, by being in the church or by the apostles explaining things to him, but he had everything that God desired him to have. So most protestants I know do not limit Gods’ working.

I believe that after you believe the message, God gives you His Spirit which will guide you into all truth. So to solve the problem of the bible not containing all information, there is the Holy Spirit. Of course many protestants don’t seem to have a concept of the working of the Spirit of God.

Also we don’t beleieve that scripture gives salvation. We believe that salvation comes from believeing the Gospel just like Paul told the galatians. But that means simply that we trust in the LIVING GOD that Jesus is our Salvation.

And no Exporter I am not ignoring anyone. I just don’t see things the same way. You make a lot of assumptions about things, either that or you think you are all knowing. Exporter you have to let people absorb things. You can’t just tell them to understand it. Understanding is something that takes time and is a process, even if God is leading you.

Thanks everyone for your informative replies!

Jeff
 
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