Can't learn about salvation by reading scripture alone?

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ianraygor:
I completely agree with you. However, I’ve found that arguing Scripture with most Protestants is at most times futile, we end up arguing interpretations. They claim that the Catholic Church is un-Scriptural. The more I read of Scripture, the Magisterium, History, and the Church Fathers, I find that this is not true. The fact is, they disagree with the Church’s interpretation of Scripture, not that the Church is un-Scriptural. They are so bound up in the fabricated doctrines that came after the 15th century (the two primary, of course, sola Scriptura/Fide), that they can’t or won’t see anything outside that.

I’ve just recently started talking to converts to try to understand how they overcame these hurdles, unfortunately I know very few at this time, but I am still looking.
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It is perfectly true that the more you study history, the more Catholic you become.

On the other hand, there are Protestants who have gone through the wrtings of the Fathers looking for “proof texts” and placed interpretations on snippets taken out of context, and stitched all this together into a plausible fabric. So it takes a real student of history to see through that and come to Catholicism.
 
jphilapy said:
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I don’t think “are able to make thee” indicates a lack of information on the scripture part. So it seems to me to be pretty absolute that one can learn how to save their soul from reading the bible.

How does the RC explain the passage in 2 tim?

Thanks,
Jeff
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Please look at and consider Matthew 7:13-20. The context of Matthew 7:15-20 is set up in Matthew 7:13-14. I’m paraphrasing: The correct way that leads to life is narrow. Those who find it are few. There are many false prophets. And how can I determine the right way if I am lost. If I am a lost sheep, how can I find the Good Shepherd?

It seems to me that these verses are plain and not so controversial. When I am looking for a Church, the Bible is telling me to open my eyes and look out there and see that there are many false. And that I should look for those who bear good fruit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit. And that I should look hard because the way that leads to life is narrow and those who find it are few.

I think Matthew 7:13-20 and other verses tell the reader to look and find the way. In Hebrews we learn we must not stay away from going to Church. So it is that we must not limit our practice of Christianity by only reading the Bible.
 
vern humphrey:
It is perfectly true that the more you study history, the more Catholic you become.
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I would say that the more one studies Church history the more one understands what it is to be catholic.
 
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Shibboleth:
I would say that the more one studies Church history the more one understands what it is to be catholic.
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That’s a reasonable position – but I was paraphrasing Newman’s famous quote, and that’s the way he put it.
 
vern humphrey:
The difference is between “The Messiah WILL come” and "The Messiah HAS come."Yes, there is correspondence between Old and New Testaments – but not so complete that Christ had no need to be incarnated!
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Then how do you explain Hebrews 11: 1 - 12: 2? We are told the Old Testament saints looked forward to the time and fulfillment of the promises and these are the great cloud of witness spoken of in 12:1, yet the Scriptures say they won’t be made perfect without us who come to believe in the New Covenant. They looked forward to Jesus and the cross, and we look back at the cross and thank Jesus for what He did for us. So according to the Bible all those either Old Testament or New, who believe God and trust in His Redeemer, the Lord of Armies will receive the promise.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
 
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Shibboleth:
I would say that the more one studies Church history the more one understands what it is to be catholic.
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It depends on what you mean by that…
 
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jphilapy:
Also what is it that the scripture (New Testament and Old Testament) does not teach about salvation that the Roman Catholic church does? Or what knowledge is not in the scriptures (New Testament and Old Testament) that is needed for salvation?
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How about which books are to be regarded as Scripture?

Secondly, Scripture does not contain the interpretation of Scripture. Some things written by Paul are hard to understand, and the ignorant and unstable twist them to their own destruction, which they might avoid if they followed the example of the Ethiopian eunuch who knew he could not understand Isaiah unless someone teach him.
 
Andreas Hofer:
How about which books are to be regarded as Scripture?

Secondly, Scripture does not contain the interpretation of Scripture. Some things written by Paul are hard to understand, and the ignorant and unstable twist them to their own destruction, which they might avoid if they followed the example of the Ethiopian eunuch who knew he could not understand Isaiah unless someone teach him.
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As I have pointed out in another thread – when the Church was considered the teacher, there was one Christian religion (the split between Catholic and Orthodox is not really a doctrinal one.)

But when Man assumed he could interpret scripture for himself, what happened? We wound up with some 30,000 different Protestant churches, each proclaiming that it has the truth.

A disinterested observer would have to conclude that “each man his own teacher” is a miserable failure.
 
Hi Andreas,
Andreas Hofer:
How about which books are to be regarded as Scripture?
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I don’t understand your question.
Andreas Hofer:
Secondly, Scripture does not contain the interpretation of Scripture. Some things written by Paul are hard to understand, and the ignorant and unstable twist them to their own destruction, which they might avoid if they followed the example of the Ethiopian eunuch who knew he could not understand Isaiah unless someone teach him.
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Regardless of how much the catholic church interprets it you will never get past the fact that each individual is responsible to interpret it themselves. They still have to interpret your interpretation. So how do you get around that?

Since the scripture says that the Holy Spirit is given to all then it makes sense that the final understanding of any teaching or scripture or interpretation of scripture will be based on what the Holy Spirit shows the person. If not the Spirit then it will be based on and limited by their own ability to comprehend and understand anyways.

Don’t you agree that each individual believer has the Holy Spirit to lead them?

Jeff
 
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jphilapy:
I don’t understand your question.
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Did you, yourself, select the writings that make up the New Testament? Or did someone else do that for you?
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jphilapy:
Regardless of how much the catholic church interprets it you will never get past the fact that each individual is responsible to interpret it themselves. They still have to interpret your interpretation. So how do you get around that?
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You clearly don’t understand the nature of Catholic exgesis, nor of Catholic dogma. The Church establishes certain beliefs (the Trinity, the Virgniity of Mary, the Real Presence) but otherwise only establishes broad guidelines.

The Catholic Church – unlike many Protestant churches – imposes few interpretations on the faithful. For example, a Catholic may believe the universe was created in 6 days of 24 hours each, or he may accept that life evolved on earth.
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jphilapy:
Since the scripture says that the Holy Spirit is given to all then it makes sense that the final understanding of any teaching or scripture or interpretation of scripture will be based on what the Holy Spirit shows the person. If not the Spirit then it will be based on and limited by their own ability to comprehend and understand anyways.
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There is another thread – which you may not have seen – which points out that the IRS has granted tax-exempt status to some 33,000 Protestant churches. Now, if your reasoning is correct, how come Protestant churches keep splitting off from each other and forming new sects?
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jphilapy:
Don’t you agree that each individual believer has the Holy Spirit to lead them?

Jeff
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If the Holy Spirit is all that is needed, then why have Scripture at all? Why have Jesus incarnated and crucified?
 
vern humphrey:
There is another thread – which you may not have seen – which points out that the IRS has granted tax-exempt status to some 33,000 Protestant churches. Now, if your reasoning is correct, how come Protestant churches keep splitting off from each other and forming new sects?
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This is not due to 33,000 differing fundamental beliefs. In fact many of them share the exact same beliefs in all aspects. Location, want of autonomy, dislike of the grandiose, etc. plays a large part in this.
 
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Shibboleth:
This is not due to 33,000 differing fundamental beliefs. In fact many of them share the exact same beliefs in all aspects. Location, want of autonomy, dislike of the grandiose, etc. plays a large part in this.
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Pull the other one, it’s got bells on it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

I can go from church to church right here in Mountain View, Arkansas, and hear one minister tell me everything that’s wrong about the NEXT church down the street.

There are literally thousands of Protestant sects, and the differences are so severe that they originally led to separation, and severe enough to keep them separate today.
 
vern humphrey:
Pull the other one, it’s got bells on it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

I can go from church to church right here in Mountain View, Arkansas, and hear one minister tell me everything that’s wrong about the NEXT church down the street.

There are literally thousands of Protestant sects, and the differences are so severe that they originally led to separation, and severe enough to keep them separate today.
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I can listen to Catholic Answers or jump around on this message board and hear Catholics talking about everything that is wrong with the Catholic Church down the street.
 
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Shibboleth:
I can listen to Catholic Answers or jump around on this message board and hear Catholics talking about everything that is wrong with the Catholic Church down the street.
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There’s a BIG diference between listening to the laity’s gripes and hearing ordained ministers discuss doctrine!
 
vern humphrey:
If the Holy Spirit is all that is needed, then why have Scripture at all? Why have Jesus incarnated and crucified?
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No matter how much you interpret it, no matter how much you explain it, what Paul said is still true for the individual:

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Jeff
 
Where does Paul say that God plays no role in bestowing the gift of faith?

And more importantly, how is it that SOME, but not ALL Christian writings are included in the New Testamen?
 
vern humphrey:
But it’s the denomination that has lasted for 2,000 years, not one of those that split off, quarreled, spilt again, quarreled again, re-split, and split again.
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I know, I know, it is not changes that happen it is “revisions.” Nice.
 
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