Can't lose salvation - unless

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WesArm said:
Protestant here. There are two main groups in Protestantism about if Salvation can be lost.

Reformed Tradition (Lutherans/Calvinists): Most believe salvation can never be lost, regardless of how you live. God “predestined” people to heaven or hell before they were born. Some will admit that you can be a serial murderer and still enter Heaven.

Arminian/Wesleyan Tradition (Pentecostals/Methodists/etc): Most believe salvation can be lost, but how it’s lost is the debate. So some main arguments are:

Serious sin committed once forfeits salvation
Habitual lifestyle of serious sin without repentance forfeits salvation
Only willfully rejecting Jesus & the Christian faith forfeits salvation

My pastor is Calvinist (I’m not) and there are so many different flavors of Calvinism, but if you press them hard enough they’ll admit that no matter what you do or how you live, you never lose your justification.
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Thanks for the honest explanation. It is valuable information for a cradle Catholic like me. The candor and frank admission of Protestant belief is appreciated.

God bless.
 
Yes - I knew this going in with my question. It just takes too much effort differentiate. I probably should have. Not all "protestant’ understandings are alike. I was making a generalization. But I did not want to make this thread about the “differences”. I think I did use the terms “some” and “most”. But was perhaps not clear.
 
Thank you WesArm, much appreciated.

What comes from this is the apparent disagreement of the many factions of Protestantism. I suppose one could argue (quite respectively and logically) that Catholicism is yet just one more perspective among the many who disagree.

Yet, respectively speaking, this is exactly the Catholic perspective (point). Because we all disagree, because we all will continue to disagree; perhaps Jesus gave us the answer to resolve this problem. Perhaps the answer is in the passing of the keys to Peter.

Just perhaps.
 
Mijoy2 said:
It just takes too much effort differentiate.
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You’re right. It also takes too much effort to differentiate between cricket and baseball rules. They’re both sports played with sticks anyway.
Mijoy2 said:
factions of Protestantism.
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This verbiage implies that “Protestantism” is one “thing” that is fractured, then fractured more, then continued to fracture. This is false. It’s akin to holding Catholics accountable for the Lutheran belief of “Christ Alone” or the Orthodox for the Roman Catholic beliefs on Papal Supremacy. “Protestantism” is a silly word.
 
Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures(perseverance) to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

Luke 11:8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, at least because of his persistence he will get up and give him whatever he needs.
 
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Mijoy2 said:
Yet I don’t hear the person on the Catholic side ask the question, “in your opinion am I saved and if not why not”. I’d just like to see the protestant perspective debaters’ answer to this question. I’d be intrigued. But it is not asked - probably due to politeness.
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I can help you out with this one, from personal experience of being told I was going to Hell for being a Catholic.
I did ask this question to a reformed once and it seemed the answer they were giving me was that I obviously do not have true faith in Jesus. They’re reasoning being that since I believe in Baptism and confession and communion, etc. It is obvious that I don’t fully trust Jesus and am putting my faith in and worshiping the Catholic Church instead.

Which brings up your next question which would be, they learned about OSAS from their Pastor or their Reformed traditions, which would mean the exact same thing about them. However, when pressed they will never admit that someone taught them their theology, and that person could be wrong, they will only tell you that their theology is 100% Biblical and the Catholic Church made non-Biblical things up through the years.

Hope this helps,

God Bless
 
steido01 said:
Thing to keep in mind is there is no “Protestant perspective.” The word “Protestant” is made-up and effectively means “any western church that isn’t Roman Catholic.”

There is the Lutheran perspective.

There are Calvinist perspectives.

There is the Arminian perspective.

There is… etc., etc.

None of these are related, so none can be expected to answer for the others.
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If you are a baptized Christian and protest the Catholic Church and any of Her teachings, you are a Protestant Christian. And, you are all “related” in the sense that all of you share the one common invisible bond of protesting the Church Christ founded, hence the invisible church of Protestantism.
 
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Thus spake AugustTherese, and all were converted. :roll_eyes:
 
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Yes, it does help. Humility, seems to be lacking. And humility is in the bible. 😉
 
Telling other people what [you mistakenly think] they believe is not very good planting.
 
Mijoy2 said:
This exception is the Catholic who, although professes to Love Jesus; professes that Jesus did in fact die for the Catholic’s sins and professes Jesus Christ as the Catholics personal Lord and Savior, is excluded from the once saved always doctrine, because the Catholic believe’s that he/she may lose his/her salvation if his/her sin is grave enough in matter.
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What I was taught is that any Catholic who professes faith in Christ and has genuinely trust in Christ for their Salvation is not excluded from once saved always saved. Being a Catholic (or Baptist or Methodist) really has nothing to do with it. All who genuinely come to Christ in faith are saved. Keep in mind that when an American Evangelical says “faith” what they/we really mean is “trust” and not simple belief or understanding.
 
steido01 said:
Telling other people what [you mistakenly think] they believe is not very good planting.
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It’s not like your protesting confessions, among other Protestant communities, aren’t public. If you don’t want to be linked with every other protesting denomination, then come home!
 
Or you could, like, treat others with respect. That would be swell too.
 
Should be obvious. You continue to disrespectfully treat all “Protestants” the same for the reason that they aren’t Roman Catholic.

Do you do the same for people of a different race? “All you ____ are the same?”

Is it also a binary choice in political parties? “If you don’t vote for the ______ candidate, you must be a _______?”

What does your own church teach about other Christian sects containing “A ray of the Truth?” What does Christ Himself say about those who aren’t against you?
 
steido01 said:
Should be obvious
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That obvious that you cannot point it out? 🤔
steido01 said:
Do you do the same for people of a different race? “All you ____ are the same?”
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Non sequitur.
steido01 said:
Is it also a binary choice in political parties? “If you don’t vote for the ______ candidate, you must be a _______?”
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False dichotomy.
steido01 said:
What does your own church teach about other Christian sects containing “A ray of the Truth?”
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There is much truth contained in Protestant communities. But, that has nothing to do with your false claim regarding the term ‘Protestant’.
steido01 said:
What does Christ Himself say about those who aren’t against you?
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If you are alluding that you (as in being connected with the LCMS) are not against the Catholic Church, then you have a very interesting way of expressing that by belonging to a denomination that publicly claims the Pope of the Catholic Church as being the Antichrist.
 
AugustTherese said:
That obvious that you cannot point it out? 🤔
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Fine. This is horrendously disrespectful:
AugustTherese said:
If you don’t want to be linked with every other protesting denomination, then come home!
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  1. You are arbitrarily grouping all non-Roman, western Christians together.
  2. You are neglecting the very different origins and theological roots of other communions.
  3. You are effectively reducing all differences between Christians to: “the good ones kiss Papa’s ring, the others are all the same.”
AugustTherese said:
Non sequitur.
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No, it’s an analogy. And a fitting one. You treat all non-Roman Catholic western Christians alike, just as others who carry prejudices.
 
AugustTherese said:
If you are alluding that you (as in being connected with the LCMS) are not against the Catholic Church, then you have a very interesting way of expressing that by belonging to a denomination that publicly claims the Pope of the Catholic Church as being the Antichrist.
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How can I be against Christianity? My church body and I acknowledge Roman Catholics to be our fellow Christians, just as your communion does me. That we have strong doctrinal disputes does not mean we are not united in other doctrinal areas.

Regarding the LCMS view on what is anti-to-Christ, you have had this explained to you before. Yet you continue to bring it up to score polemical points. One last time before I add you to my ‘ignore’ list:
"The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist… It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person’s heart… Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. "
And furthermore:
“To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran Confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God’s guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.”

The LCMS uses this as a surgical, academic term - not in some silly “Left Behind” sort of way. It gives three reasons, and all are conditional - that is, they may no longer apply someday. Contrast that to the Roman Catholic position on labeling folks “heretics.”
 
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