Can't Wrap My Head Around Mariology

  • Thread starter Thread starter James82
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Chero,

I pray the Angelus when I wake up and when I go to bed. I know full well that to love Christ is to love his Mother. Helpers here need not worry that I am some Hyper Calvinist, Matthew Henry reading redactive heretic, far from it. My questions simply are those concerning doctrine as regards the Holy Mother.

In Christ,

James
As others on here already stated, nothing in private revelation can be dogmatically binding on you. Especially not something from newer and outlandish visions. That being said, visions such as Fatima, Guadeloupe, and the like are near universally believed among the faithful. But I don’t believe disbelief in them would pose a real impediment to being a faithful member.
 
It appears I have come to an absolute wall in my quest for Truth and clarity. It is very disappointing and disheartening when you’ve done the following:
  1. Accepted that the See of Peter is indeed the rightful leader of the Christian Church. I have looked at both Orthodox and Roman Catholic arguments on this. And while I believe that the Orthodox reverence of mystery and tradition is a fine thing (and in many ways to be emulated), I cannot help but see in my minds eye shelter being sought in the storm that is this Christian life, with a sign sticking out saying “We’ll hang back and wait”. Indeed, maybe there is something to be said for such a faith, something more than my finite, Catholic leaning cerebrum can contemplate.
  2. Protestantism provides no lasting, true edification of the human spirit it would seem. Evangelism and teaching the general maxim’s of the Christian life is one thing. But to reject the authority of the Church (despite her misgivings and imperfections), and worse yet, to write off the Eucharist as a mere ‘symbol’ or ‘memorial’ brings me to nausea. Need I even mention that the father of the Reformation wrote “On the Jews and Their Lies”?
But what of Mariology?? Truly, what of it?! It just doesn’t seem to fit with Apostolic teaching. Visions? Crying Statues? What?! (Please do not take offense at my ignorance and confusion). The teachings of Christ, the Apostles, and their successors bring both clarity, universal truths and edification to the Catholic faith and it’s 1 billion plus adherents.

However, what do visions and admonishments to some nuns in Japan, Spain, or Mexico have to do with the Catholic faith? So many question marks come up about this for me.

My foot is hanging over the edge and I’m absolutely ready to take the plunge. All I ask is for someone to point me to some clear and concise teachings on this. What about any Traditional Anglicans (such as myself) who’ve had to struggle with this? Any takers?

In Christ,

James
An excellent book for you to read is the recent “Making Sense of Mary”, by Gary Michuta. Because he writes the book using Protestant terminology. He says he saw a need for books about Mary that didn’t use Catholic terminology, but were tailored to Protestants. He starts off the stating 3 basic rules for the book: (1) Christ alone saves, (2) God’s plan of redemption is perfect, complete, and lacking in nothing, and (3) Satan’s defeat is perfect, complete, and lacking in nothing. He says, “When we apply these 3 rules to the biblical truth surrounding the Fall and Our Redemption, Catholic Marian doctrines will become more understandable”. The book is also available as an ebook. You can download a free sample from amazon with the first chapter.

amazon.com/Making-Sense-of-Mary-ebook/dp/B00E9JBTD0/ref=sr_sp-btf_title_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382763986&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=Making+sense+of+mary+by+gary+m
 
Hi Credo,

What I have highlighted in bold seems to be the rub for me. I quote here regarding the apparition of Our Lady of Akita "Sister Sasagawa stated that the Virgin Mary told her: “Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone (bold is mine) am able still to save you from the calamities which approach.” Is this not the expounding of a doctrine? Can you perhaps sense my trepidation?
Hi James,

Yes I can see why you are unnerved by such comments and as much as I would like to explain them, the answer is I cannot. Truth be told I havent really followed this vision or read about it. But lets focus on the part that I’ve wanted to demonstrate to you and that is that I do not have to know about this vision or even believe in it to be in 100% unity with the Church.
However more to the important point. Since my belief and acceptance of such things does not impede my going into the full Catholic faith (according to some posters) the next step is RCIA.
Not according to some posters my brother, but according to Holy Mother Church.

catholic.com/quickquestions/are-any-apparitions-ever-considered-dogma

God bless and,
http://stleofairfax.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Welcome-home3-resized.jpg
 
I recall two different ‘distillations’ of marian teaching.

First, from Scott Hahn:
1)Jesus fulfilled the 10 commandments perfectly, including to honour mother and father.
2)Mary is Jesus’ mother.
3)We imitate Jesus, hence honour His (and our [John 19:26, Rev 12:17]) mother.

Second, from Fr. John Corapi:
If she’s good enough for Jesus, she’s good enough for us.
 
It appears I have come to an absolute wall in my quest for Truth and clarity. It is very disappointing and disheartening when you’ve done the following:
  1. Accepted that the See of Peter is indeed the rightful leader of the Christian Church. I have looked at both Orthodox and Roman Catholic arguments on this. And while I believe that the Orthodox reverence of mystery and tradition is a fine thing (and in many ways to be emulated), I cannot help but see in my minds eye shelter being sought in the storm that is this Christian life, with a sign sticking out saying “We’ll hang back and wait”. Indeed, maybe there is something to be said for such a faith, something more than my finite, Catholic leaning cerebrum can contemplate.
  2. Protestantism provides no lasting, true edification of the human spirit it would seem. Evangelism and teaching the general maxim’s of the Christian life is one thing. But to reject the authority of the Church (despite her misgivings and imperfections), and worse yet, to write off the Eucharist as a mere ‘symbol’ or ‘memorial’ brings me to nausea. Need I even mention that the father of the Reformation wrote “On the Jews and Their Lies”?
But what of Mariology?? Truly, what of it?! It just doesn’t seem to fit with Apostolic teaching. Visions? Crying Statues? What?! (Please do not take offense at my ignorance and confusion). The teachings of Christ, the Apostles, and their successors bring both clarity, universal truths and edification to the Catholic faith and it’s 1 billion plus adherents.

However, what do visions and admonishments to some nuns in Japan, Spain, or Mexico have to do with the Catholic faith? So many question marks come up about this for me.

My foot is hanging over the edge and I’m absolutely ready to take the plunge. All I ask is for someone to point me to some clear and concise teachings on this. What about any Traditional Anglicans (such as myself) who’ve had to struggle with this? Any takers?

In Christ,

James
James-

Be at peace. The things that you describe fall into the category of private revelation, and you are not obligated to accept them at all.

FWIW, I think that God has sent Mary to certain individuals from time to time just as he sent angels to men in the OT, so accept what you are comfortable with and set the rest aside.
 
You don’t have to accept any of these.

Visions are what are known as ‘‘private’’ revelations and as such there is no requirement for you to believe them or accept them.

They are not Church teachings.

As for crying statues, well, you can be as skeptical as you like here, knock yourself out, because again the Catholic Church doesn’t require you to accept or believe such an event actually happened.

You are required to believe the Marian Dogmas of:

Divine Motherhood - proclaimed at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

Perpetual Virginity - clarified and expounded on by the Council of the Lateran, 649.

Immaculate Conception - Decreed by Pope Pius IX , Ineffabilis Deus, 1854.

The Assumption - Decreed by Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Munificentissimus Deus, 1950.

There is a movement in some parts of the Catholic world to have a fifth Dogma, that of Mary as Co-Redemptrix but this remains a controversial debate for some.

If you can accept the first four, as you’re required to as a Catholic, you’re good to go 😃

Hyperdulia is the name given to the veneration owed to Mary alone, as the Mother of God.

This can, in terms of practice, to an outsider looking in, almost seem like worship, but it’s important to remember that Catholics worship only God, regardless of how the practices of veneration of Mary may seem!

Sarah x 🙂
:clapping:

Are you sure you’re an atheist? Many Catholics couldn’t have written that!
 
It appears I have come to an absolute wall in my quest for Truth and clarity. It is very disappointing and disheartening when you’ve done the following:
  1. Protestantism provides no lasting, true edification of the human spirit it would seem. Evangelism and teaching the general maxim’s of the Christian life is one thing. But to reject the authority of the Church (despite her misgivings and imperfections), and worse yet, to write off the Eucharist as a mere ‘symbol’ or ‘memorial’ brings me to nausea. Need I even mention that the father of the Reformation wrote “On the Jews and Their Lies”?
I wish only to respond to this section briefly.

First, I share your “nausea” for mere symbolic and memorial belief regarding the Eucharist.
Secondly, Lutheranism has long rejected only the claims of the office of the papacy that lack scriptural and historical support (not unlike Orthodoxy).
Finally, Father Martin’s vitriol toward the Jews late in his life is not to be excused, nor is it to be viewed in a vacuum. His long-time Catholic opponent, Johan Eck, matched said vitriol with his own regarding the Jews in his book,* Refutation of a Jew-Book*. Anti-Jewish sentiment in the Reformation era was widespread, and not related to your interesting opinion that “protestantism provides no lasting, true edification of the human spirit”.

Jon
 
If you allow me, even those who read this post, I’m setting up this apologetic booklet. I will talk about 100 different things, from moral issues, to the sacraments. There 15 things that I’m getting bible verses about the Virgin Mary. Unfortunately it’s in Spanish, I’m not finished yet tough. I will work on it and post it here at CAF. When I post it, I’ll send you a private message letting you know that it’s been posted.
I look forward to it Chero. 👍
 
Visions or apparitions are not binding on the faithful. If you don’t want to believe in them, you don’t have to.
Where does the dogma of Mary come from? Do they come from the visions? If they come from the visions, then I would have to believe in the visions to become Catholic.

Or does it come in revelations to the popes from God? And if they come through the popes, does that make the pope a prophet?

I also can’t seem to wrap my mind about Mariology. Not sure exactly where it comes from. Especially about perpetual virginity. I thought that Joseph married Mary and the marriage would then be a sacrament and they would have to be open to life whether they had more children or not.

Still not getting it.
 
I wish only to respond to this section briefly.

First, I share your “nausea” for mere symbolic and memorial belief regarding the Eucharist.
Secondly, Lutheranism has long rejected only the claims of the office of the papacy that lack scriptural and historical support (not unlike Orthodoxy).
Finally, Father Martin’s vitriol toward the Jews late in his life is not to be excused, nor is it to be viewed in a vacuum. His long-time Catholic opponent, Johan Eck, matched said vitriol with his own regarding the Jews in his book,* Refutation of a Jew-Book*. Anti-Jewish sentiment in the Reformation era was widespread, and not related to your interesting opinion that “protestantism provides no lasting, true edification of the human spirit”.

Jon
Hi Jon,

To perhaps avoid polemics off the bat, I should of stated that I find no lasting edification within reformed churches (ie. Continuing Anglicanism for myself) for me personally. Edification does not speak strictly of reverence of the Eucharist of course. Nor does it speak alone to liturgy, teachings, etc.

There are many good and wonderful Christians in not only my current parish and province (Christ the King), but I imagine within in many different denominations as well.

For me it has been akin to the switching on of a light in a large, dark, and empty hall. Upon illumination it just made sense.

As regards to Mr. Luther. Indeed it could be argued that (evidently) others within the Roman Catholic faith spewed vitriol regarding Jews. But what is of note, is when the very foundation of schism (i.e. Martin Luther) is found wanting, I would argue that one is left on untenable ground.

Furthermore, I would posit that history bears witness to the lack of firm foundation that reformed communions put their faith in. That is; the constant splintering and fracturing of the reformed/protestant ‘communions’, if you will.
 
=James82;11339937]Hi Jon,
To perhaps avoid polemics off the bat, I should of stated that I find no lasting edification within reformed churches (ie. Continuing Anglicanism for myself) for me personally. Edification does not speak strictly of reverence of the Eucharist of course. Nor does it speak alone to liturgy, teachings, etc.
There are many good and wonderful Christians in not only my current parish and province (Christ the King), but I imagine within in many different denominations as well.
For me it has been akin to the switching on of a light in a large, dark, and empty hall. Upon illumination it just made sense.
Understood, and may you be blessed in your journey through word and sacrament.
As regards to Mr. Luther. Indeed it could be argued that (evidently) others within the Roman Catholic faith spewed vitriol regarding Jews. But what is of note, is when the very foundation of schism (i.e. Martin Luther) is found wanting, I would argue that one is left on untenable ground.
Of course, I would not consider any one man, as the “foundation” of schism, as there were many on both sides who hold and bear responsibility. That said, Dr. Luther was simply a man, with the sins and flaws we all have, which is why Lutherans will tell you that we do not preach Luther, as he never hung on a cross for us, but instead we preach Christ crucified. It is the dispute regarding doctrine that leads us, all of us, to the need to seek reconciliation.
Furthermore, I would posit that history bears witness to the lack of firm foundation that reformed communions put their faith in. That is; the constant splintering and fracturing of the reformed/protestant ‘communions’, if you will.
While it is not very often the case that groups have splintered from Lutheranism, most of that is in the Reformed camp, it is sad that there are disputes within Lutheranism that divide us. That said, all the communions within the western Church have their roots in the Latin Church. The splintering applies to us all.

I do not wish to derail your important thread on this side issue. As a Lutheran who has strong Evangelical Catholic leanings, I share your desire to understand fully the depth and importance of Mariology. I concur with the poster who recommended a start with the Holy Theotokos, something you and I should have no trouble with. From there, I tend to look at the things east and west have in common - Perpetual Virginity (which is confirmed in the Lutheran Confessions, and Dormition/Assumption (ignoring the slight differences).

Jon
 
Well put Jon,

Hopefully in my journey’s on CA i can obtain Christian insight from a fellow pilgrim who seeks paradise with Our Lord.

In Christ,

James
 
Where does the dogma of Mary come from? Do they come from the visions? If they come from the visions, then I would have to believe in the visions to become Catholic.
Not visions.
Or does it come in revelations to the popes from God? And if they come through the popes, does that make the pope a prophet?
Marian dogmas are revealed in scripture. Sometimes you have to look a little more closely to see them. 😛
I also can’t seem to wrap my mind about Mariology. Not sure exactly where it comes from. Especially about perpetual virginity. I thought that Joseph married Mary and the marriage would then be a sacrament and they would have to be open to life whether they had more children or not.
Still not getting it.
Here is an overview…it will take you a few minutes to read, but it will be worth it.

The “Brothers and Sisters” of Jesus: Anything New?
By François Rossier
campus.udayton.edu/mary/Rossier.html
 
Hello James82 and welcome to the journey. 👋 I too was Anglican, so I understand some of your reluctance. Although I very much loved the major Marian apparitions when I was a child, especially Lourdes, because I could sense the holiness and ineffable love in the story. Maybe using such criteria has been bred out of us by our skeptical society? I don’t know. 😉

A very good book on apparitions is: A Still Small Voice:
A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations by Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel
. It will help you understand the Church’s position on these things.

Also, the key thing to remember about Marian teachings is that they are Christo-centric, and not meant to simply honor her, although they do that, of course. When we look at the teachings through that lens it makes much more sense.

All the best to you in your discernment process. 🙂
 
Well, you have learned a lot! What would it take to earn that personal endorsement?
First I’d have to believe there is a Supernatural Being of some kind, then I’d have to get from there to a benevolent Deity and from there to the God of Christianity and then from there to the God of Christianity as taught by the Catholic Church, and all that entails, such as Mariology, sacraments and so on.

I don’t think that’s going to happen.

But I do enjoy the company of most Catholics here, and I’ve enjoyed learning, and continuing to learn, about the Catholic Faith.

Sarah x 🙂
 
First I’d have to believe there is a Supernatural Being of some kind, then I’d have to get from there to a benevolent Deity and from there to the God of Christianity and then from there to the God of Christianity as taught by the Catholic Church, and all that entails, such as Mariology, sacraments and so on.

I don’t think that’s going to happen.

But I do enjoy the company of most Catholics here, and I’ve enjoyed learning, and continuing to learn, about the Catholic Faith.

Sarah x 🙂
Well, sometimes things that don’t make sense to us suddenly do. Don’t be surprised if one day, out of the blue, you just “get it.” I don’t mean simply mental understanding, which is fine and good, of course, but rather that in some way, known only to God, it will all fall into place within your heart and soul. Many have had that experience, I have when I’ve face questions I couldn’t resolve. It’s like a quantum leap–it’s unexplainable. 🙂
 
James, first, welcome home! Don’t worry if you don’t understand all about Mary at this point. All you have to do is accept the four dogmas which have been listed already. That’s enough for now. One of the thing I love about being a Catholic is that the only person who expects me to “get” everything is me. A hang over from my Prot. life where you always worked to make sure you had “arrived”. As Catholics, our faith life is a journey, not a destination. It’s a huge difference.

My advice regarding Mary, if you are comfortable with it, pray the Rosary every day. That’s it Trust me, our Blessed Mother will take care of the rest.
Kris
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top