Cantors

[lucybeebee]

When did the OF start using cantors? What is the purpose of this role?

 

[Phemie]

When did the OF start using cantors? What is the purpose of this role?

The only place that we need a cantor is for the Psalm & Gospel Acclamation. Nowhere does it call for someone to ‘lead’ the singing. The choir should be able to do that quite nicely without someone waving their arms at the people.

 

[CarrieH]

The only place that we need a cantor is for the Psalm & Gospel Acclamation. Nowhere does it call for someone to ‘lead’ the singing. The choir should be able to do that quite nicely without someone waving their arms at the people.

At the three churches where I have served as cantor, the Psalm and Gospel Acclamation were the only things we did with the arm-waving, as you call it. The cantor would sing into the microphone for the hymns if the choir wasn’t present (they only sang for the “big” Mass on Sunday morning), but there were no gestures toward the congregation for hymns or for the Mass parts. Maybe it’s different where you are. Anyway, at the 7:30 a.m. Mass, those people did not sing (maybe they weren’t awake yet?) – if I hadn’t sung into the microphone, it would have been just the piano/organ. I used to call that Mass “Carrie’s solo recital hour.”

 

[brotherhrolf]

When did the OF start using cantors? What is the purpose of this role?

If I remember correctly, right around 1970. I can remember when my parish first used them and thinking to myself “Who is this guy?”. There were no female cantors back then. The cantor’s primary purpose was, as was pointed out, to proclaim the Psalm and the Gospel Acclamation either singing or speaking depending upon if it was a sung Mass or not.

In my parish, the cantor is part of the choir. We have a primary cantor but we also have others who serve as needed.

 

[puzzleannie]

as I recall, sometime around 1968 the choir director, or a choir member, (or maybe an organist who got demoted when they replaced the organ with the guitars) suddenly started standing up and making those hand motions at various parts of the Mass. Since we were still in shock over the rapid, unexplained, arbitrary and offensive changes to the church layout and Mass itself, we were probably too numb to react to the music end of it right away.

 

[lucybeebee]

But what’s the purpose of a cantor? To my knowledge there was no such position prior to 1969 or so? Why was this believed to be needed?

 

[Cat]

But what’s the purpose of a cantor? To my knowledge there was no such position prior to 1969 or so? Why was this believed to be needed?

If you played the piano for Mass, you would very quickly realize the purpose of a cantor.

I and other pianists/organists in our city HATE IT when there isn’t a cantor for Mass. As one of the experienced Catholic organists told me once–“It’s the worst.”

Another experienced Catholic organist/pianist told me, “It’s so yucky when there’s no cantor.”

In fact, in that parish when there is no cantor, this organist will actually make the announcement BEFORE the Mass and ask if anyone is willing to cantor. (Brave man!) He hates playing with no cantor.

And so do I. I have actually asked the priest if it would be better if I just went home and the Mass were done without music. He always says, “No, please stay and play.”

In one of the parishes where I play, the priest will ask various members if they are willing to cantor! So apparently cantors are important to many priests.

Simply put, when there is no cantor, the people don’t sing.

They don’t even sing the familiar Mass parts that they’ve sung for years, let alone any hymns, even simple hymns like “Amazing Grace” or “Beautiful Savior” or “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name.”

They just sit there.

I’m sure they are worshipping in their hearts, but that’s no comfort to the instrumentalist who is basically playing a solo and not a very good one, since it is meant to be an accompaniment for congregational singing!

YUCK! It’s so awkward!

Sometimes at one of the parishes I play for, the priest will act as the cantor and lead out the singing. But it is always scary, because he doesn’t have the music in front of him, and sometimes he comes in earlier or later than I expect, or sometimes I come in earlier or later than he expects, and sometimes he doesn’t know the words and just sings the same verse again and again–and then the people are uncomfortable and I’m turning red and he’s stumbling through an acclamation or a hymn–it’s really not very nice at all. Makes for an awkward Mass.

I realize that the Mass is NOT A SHOW. I and the cantor am not there to entertain but to serve the Lord and His people.

But there is a comfort in having an orderly Mass, where the songs are led by someone who can either read music or knows the songs, and can help the people in the congregation to learn the songs and sing them with a full voice and heart.

When the music is “smoothly done,” with no “surprises” or “oops,” then it’s easier for the people to pray and worship God in the Holy Mass. Well-prepared music done by competent servants (cantor or choir and instrumentalists) is much more conducive to worship.

I realize that many people prefer silence rather than music. Well, that’s fine, and the churches that I play for offer silent masses. But many more people prefer music, especially on Sundays and Feast Days.

 

[CarrieH]

Simply put, when there is no cantor, the people don’t sing

Half the time they don’t sing even when they DO have a cantor!

But remember, to quote St. Augustine, “he who sings well prays twice.”

 

[brotherhrolf]

Our cantor says she loves it during the summer when the choir is on hiatus. We don’t all sit together. We spread ourselves out in the congregation. Kinda hard to keep quiet when you’ve got choir members belting the hymn out amongst you. Amazing how many people decide - hey, I can sing too.

Cat is absolutely correct. The congregation is not going to sing without a cantor. Everyone is too self-concious and I’ll be the first one to admit it. Not because I can’t sing, but if I sang at my normal choral volume in the pews w/o having a cantor or fellow choir members - I’d stand out like a sore thumb.

 

[lucybeebee]

But why do the people need to be singing in the first place? Couldn’t the choir do that instead?

 

[brotherhrolf]

Lucy - we sang entrance, communion, and recessional hymns even back in the 50s at a Solemn High Mass (which the 10:30 Mass usually was back then at most parishes). We never had a schola; we always had a choir. We never used the Liber Usualis; we sang the normal plainsong chants and the congregation did indeed sing the plainsong. Now, as far as the Mass goes, Father always intoned Gloria in excelsis Deo or Sanctus or Pater Noster and the choir and people would jump right in. So in that sense Father acted as the cantor.

 

[SeekerJen]

But why do the people need to be singing in the first place? Couldn’t the choir do that instead?

How many Sunday Masses do you have at your parish? Mine has five. We don’t have five choirs, nor is it fair to expect the choir to show up at all five to keep a handful of people happy. Thus, the use of cantors. sigh

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

But why do the people need to be singing in the first place? Couldn’t the choir do that instead?

Having a choir is a recourse intensive ministry. It is hard to get people to first go out for it, practice for it, and sing as often as possible. Choir members are volunteers with lives too. Having cantors allows the choir members to not be burned out and to have better performances when they are scheduled (usually Christmas, Easter, Confirmation, etc…).

And I reiterate another poster, cantors are needed to start the people singing. Most people need that first nudge/note and then most people get involved.

 

[Cat]

But why do the people need to be singing in the first place? Couldn’t the choir do that instead?

I can’t imagine worshipping God without singing.

One of the first Bible passages that I had to memorize when I was a little girl was Psalm 100–“Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands. Serve the Lord with gladness, come before His presence with singing.”

lucybeebee, surely you have heard the stories of the martyrs who marched into the arena SINGING.

You’ve read about Paul and Silas singing hymns as they sat chained in prison.

The angels sing continously in heaven. How can we humans stay silent?

When the Pharisees told Jesus to make the people stop praising Him, Jesus replied, “If these are silent, the stones will cry out.”

Straight from the Mouth of Our Lord: If we don’t sing, the rocks will start singing. So we may as well sing. Singing rocks are creepy.

Seriously, I sing all day long. People at work comment on it. But I can’t help it. Maybe it’s because I’ve played piano all my life. Maybe it’s because my daughters and husband are figure skaters and I’m constantly working with a tune in my head.

I don’t listen to the radio. I make my own music.

I believe that the various documents outlining the rubrics of the Mass call for singing by the congregation whenever possible. It is right to give praise to the Lord our God and use the voices that He has given us (even when those voices sound like frogs and katydids!).

 

[Phemie]

I can’t imagine worshipping God without singing.

I believe that the various documents outlining the rubrics of the Mass call for singing by the congregation whenever possible. It is right to give praise to the Lord our God and use the voices that He has given us (even when those voices sound like frogs and katydids!).

Except for the post-Communion hymn, the hymns can all be sung by the choir alone. So too the Gloria & the Psalm if it is sung straight through by the psalmist without a response.

 

[Sarabande]

The congregation is not going to sing without a cantor.

Yes and no. It depends on the parish. In my small, country, farming parish, they never had a cantor and just little organ. At one point they didn’t even have an organist or any other musician. They don’t even have an amplification system installed. It’s all natural sound. During all the years I have attended mass, no matter what time of the year, the congregation sang their hearts out.

In my home parish, which is a cathedral, there is sometimes a need for a cantor because the place is so large and there are often visitors who may not be familiar with some of the hymn melodies. But in my experience, as a cantor there, I’ve found that if the congregation knows and love the hymn and the organist is a good support, they sing without the need of the cantor. It can be very tricky cantoring there too, because of the huge time delay between the organ in the choir loft and the cantor in the front. We love it when we can “cantor” from the choir loft with the organ for funerals and weddings. It also keeps me anonymous, which I prefer.

Last weekend I attended mass at a different parish downtown. They had a cantor who was part of the professional quartet. He was down front for the hymns, BUT the only time he sang in front of the microphone was for the psalm and the gospel acclamation. For the hymns, he didn’t sing into the microphone at all. Guess what? The packed congregation actually sang fuller and more. I was pleasantly surprised. In my former parish where they tried to institute this kind of cantoring (to the chagrin of other cantors - I was fine with it), the congregation was a good, singing parish and it worked for many hymns, but for the “harder” ones with the syncopated rhythms I had to help them along. I didn’t know that other parishes were trying to incorporate it too.

As a cantor and a musician, I can see that there is sometimes a need for them, especially for the psalm and Gospel Acclamation, but I think an organist or other instrumentalist who is strong in his/her musical ability and knows how to lead is even more important.

Another problem I’ve found working as a cantor is trying to have a balance where you don’t overpower the congregation. It’s not my “show” and I’ve known a few cantors who have actually thought that, even commenting that the people choose certain mass to attend because of them.

People also have gotten so used to a cantor that when my family have come to masses that I’ve cantored, they’ll say things, like “The organist played too loudly that we couldn’t hear you, except for during the psalm.” or “They turned the microphones down too low that we couldn’t hear you, except for during the psalm.” I have to explain to them that my job is not to be the soloist for the hymns. I’m there to lead the congregation in and to sing with them - not for them or at them.

I know the difference between a soloist and a cantor - and I have been both as a soloist in a choral piece, for recitals and opera and just a simple cantor leading a congregation. I try to be as invisible and anonymous as possible as a cantor - just a voice - because I’ve personally experienced people becoming too enthralled. So, I’ve worked very hard at being as invisible as possible to the point of waiting until the church clears out before I leave the Sacristy, etc. I won’t go into the problems that I’ve encountered with congregants becoming enthralled. But it does saddens me a bit, because I feel like that maybe I shouldn’t be cantoring anymore for regular Sunday masses. But spiritually, I feel called to give back to my parish and to God with my gifts and years of training to perfect my gifts. It has also been my way of prayer and would be very difficult to cut off - unless the Church does do away with cantors all together.

I’m at a crossroads at the moment and I’m just trying to trust in God to lead me down the right direction on this for Sunday masses.

 

[John_Lilburne]

But what’s the purpose of a cantor? To my knowledge there was no such position prior to 1969 or so? Why was this believed to be needed?

The 5 March 1967 Instruction Musicam sacram had:
“21. Especially where even a small choir is not possible, there must be at least one or more cantors, thoroughly trained to intone at least the simpler chants that the congregation sings and to lead and sustain the singing.
Even in churches having a choir it is better for a cantor to be present for those celebrations that the choir cannot attend but that should be carried out with some degree of solemnity and thus with singing.”
(Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1982, ISBN 0-8146-1281-4, page 1297.)

From the 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia:
“Cantor
The chief singer (and sometimes instructor) of the ecclesiastical choir, called also precentor. His duties and qualifications have varied considerably according to time and place; but generally he must be ready to lead all the singing in church, …”
(From newadvent.org/cathen/03306a.htm ).

 

[Sarabande]

The 5 March 1967 Instruction Musicam sacram had:
“21. Especially where even a small choir is not possible, there must be at least one or more cantors, **thoroughly trained to intone at least the simpler chants that the congregation sings and to lead and sustain the singing.**Even in churches having a choir it is better for a cantor to be present for those celebrations that the choir cannot attend but that should be carried out with some degree of solemnity and thus with singing.”

Unfortunately, many of the cantors I’ve come accross at various parishes have had little or no vocal training and not even any real instruction on how to be a cantor. In my opinion, if the Church really wants to give true importance to the role of the cantor, She needs to take Her quote seriously.

My former voice teacher was a Jewish cantor and even though she was an international opera singer before coming back to the States and becoming a cantor, she had to attend formal training specifically for becoming a cantor in a Synogogue to, among learning various responsibilities, make sure that her chanting was correct and true, to be able to adapt so that her voice would not be operatic. It isn’t when she chants. They take the role of a cantor seriously. She was a soloist and cantor at my wedding. She chanted the Prayer of the Faithful along with the Gospel Acclamation and other things. It was some of the most beautifully, rich and spiritual chanting I’ve heard - and she knew the Catholic mass and had respect for the mass as a Jewish cantor better than some Catholic cantors I know. She even had a greater knowledge of the Liturgical music history and traditions of the Catholic Church as a Jewish woman than the average Catholic.

I don’t see it as often in the Catholic church and I think that is one of the reasons why we see so many bad cantors or people who want to be the “lead” in the “show” rather than truly getting some serious training or at least mentoring if there is no formal training available.

Vocal training/technique AND musical training is also important, IMO - especially if they are to lead the congregation.

 

[Guitar]

Cat is absolutely correct. The congregation is not going to sing without a cantor.

In most places this is true. Where I come from, though, you still occasionally find older folk who won’t sing with a cantor. I’m struggling to put it into words but for some congregations well-used to singing hymns they knew and loved, the cantor when introduced seemed like a fifth wheel. (To address the OP, my first hazy memories of cantors at the OF are from about 1972.) They’d been singing all their lives without being led, and so they concluded that when the cantor sang this must be a new, extra thing to which they were supposed to just listen. My father reacted that way, even to choirs. It was counter-cultural for some of his generation, especially as Catholicism was traditionally “the religion of the scullery” and many parishes were made up of dirt-poor blue-collar families - no spare pennies to spend on music when you have more children than pairs of shoes for them. One of my Anglican organist friends found this too when he got a post at a big inner-city Catholic church - the days his cantor couldn’t be there, everyone sang and if the cantor led them, they went quiet. So he doesn’t use one anymore except for the psalm. Fewer and fewer places are like that, as time goes by, though.

Hand gestures from cantors do not go down well where I’m from either - very few cantors use them, even in cathedrals, and in my experience people find them thoroughly off-putting and distracting. A friend said to me once, “I feel like sucking my thumb when a cantor does that - I’m a grown-up and I know quite well when to sing, thank you very much.” But again, that’s a cultural thing. Personally, I think if the organist is doing his/her job and is consistent from week to week, gestures aren’t necessary.

I too agree with Cat. On a piano or other non-organ instrument or even instrumental group, you can’t jump from a swell 8’ & 4’ flute manual-only introduction to great diapason chorus + pedals accompaniment to indicate where people should sing, and the cantor becomes much more important.

Sarabande - as she so often does - makes an excellent point that cantors should be trained to be cantors, not just trained to sing “properly”. In my parish we have a former professional who is popularly known as “the opera singer”. She never sang opera but was a stage show soloist and had a voice that would “cut through” a chorus. But “opera singer” is how people perceive her, and right-wrong-or-otherwise, they do not feel “invited” to join in - they feel they are supposed to shut up and listen and not mess up her act. Another woman with no training whatseover but a naturally pleasant voice and good microphone technique gets a very good response. Because she sounds “normal”, people conclude she is there to lead them rather than to perform. Of course this cantor would benefit from training, and it’s partly due to the “local culture” that people react that way, but the point is that, as Sarabande says, cantors’ training needs to be more than just vocal training.

 

[CB_Catholic]

In my parish there is a Cantor at every Mass, and they all are required to have trained voices. They also are all part of the choir, which only sings at one Sunday morning Mass. However, if they are cantoring at another Mass, they don’t always sing with the choir, but some do. They are very dedicated people.

The only problem that sometimes occurs is that a few of them are professional opera singers, and when one of the sopranos is cantoring, the psalm is too high-pitched and it is difficult to sing the response. But that doesn’t happen too often, and it doesn’t seem to be a problem with the men.

But we have the most beautiful “Ave Maria’s” in town, when one of them sings it.