Cantors

[Guitar]

The only problem that sometimes occurs is that a few of them are professional opera singers, and when one of the sopranos is cantoring, the psalm is too high-pitched and it is difficult to sing the response. But that doesn’t happen too often, and it doesn’t seem to be a problem with the men.

People think that sopranos and tenors automatically make the best cantors because these voices normally have the lead roles in operas and musicals, and sopranos usually get the melody line in harmony pieces. I’ve heard it said in many workshops though that altos and basses should be considered first as their natural “comfort zones” are more closely aligned to the ranges untrained singers are comfortable in.

 

[Antegin]

But why do the people need to be singing in the first place? Couldn’t the choir do that instead?

That would be the most incorrect use of a cantor! When you sing you pray seven times. Liturgical music is suppose to be accessible to the participants so they actively participate in the music.

The cantor is supposed to function as a leader, that’s why they are called cantor and not soloists. Before Vatican II the Church used soloists. They were throwbacks to the rainassaince when masses were written in operatic form for golden timber voices with 4 octave ranges or castrati choirs of prepubescent boys.

But older still than the renaissance, preserved in the liturgical traditions of the eastern rites and orthodox Judism is the cantor tradition where a liturgical leader engages the congregation in an interactive prayer put to simple music. In fact, many of the psalms and poetic writings in the old testment contain cantors notes for how to sing or chant with the congregation.

Catholics mistakenly date the use of cantor to the late 60’s because it was Vatican II that revived this ancient liturgy.

Raise your voice and make a joyful sound unto the Lord…http://www.free-animations.co.uk/music/singers/images/singer_15.gif

 

[brotherhrolf]

Our cantor is an alto but she does indeed use hand gestures. Sheesh, diocesan Masses where we have two cantors (male and female) are even worse. Looks like football referees down on the altar.

We rotated cantors way back when - all were choir members. Our present cantor is a choir member as well but she has to fly down the stairs to the choir loft, exit the side of the cathedral, run to the side door of the Blessed Sacrament chapel, and emerge after we have sung an Offertory anthem or motet. And then after she has directed the Communion hymn she’s got to race upstairs for the choral motet. And then race back downstairs for the post-Communion hymn and the recessional. Poor dear gets a real work-out.

 

[puzzleannie]

But why do the people need to be singing in the first place? Couldn’t the choir do that instead?

full active participation in the Mass, singing is included, this was called for even in the liturgical reforms long before V2 was a gleam in Pope John 23’s eye

 

[brotherhrolf]

Catholics mistakenly date the use of cantor to the late 60’s because it was Vatican II that revived this ancient liturgy.

In an historical context, you are undoubtedly correct. But I can tell you without a doubt that we did not have anyone who even remotely functioned like a cantor in any of the two parishes in which I was raised before and after Vatican II. I can remember all too well when the cantors were introduced after Vatican II.

It was “who is this guy?”. And, no, back then the cantors did NOT make any hand gestures. There were no cantors when I made my First Communion or Confirmation before Vatican II.

 

[brotherhrolf]

full active participation in the Mass, singing is included, this was called for even in the liturgical reforms long before V2 was a gleam in Pope John 23’s eye

Annie, I grew up singing as a child - not only hymns but plainsong (in Latin). I was just a tad too young to recognize any change but we had a children’s choir in the late 50s and the good sisters taught us Latin. By the time I was an altar boy around 1960, the congregation sang hymns and plainsong - not just the parts of the Mass but Ave Maria, Regina Coeli, Ave Verum Corpus, etc…you know what I am talking about. I have an entire repertoire of plainsong that I learned as a kid. I’ve never had to “learn” the chant in my choir. And plainsong like “Jesu dulcis memoria”. I can sing them by heart so I had to have learned them way back when.

 

[Phemie]

Annie, I grew up singing as a child - not only hymns but plainsong (in Latin). I was just a tad too young to recognize any change but we had a children’s choir in the late 50s and the good sisters taught us Latin. By the time I was an altar boy around 1960, the congregation sang hymns and plainsong - not just the parts of the Mass but Ave Maria, Regina Coeli, Ave Verum Corpus, etc…you know what I am talking about. I have an entire repertoire of plainsong that I learned as a kid. I’ve never had to “learn” the chant in my choir. And plainsong like “Jesu dulcis memoria”. I can sing them by heart so I had to have learned them way back when.

I’ve heard that that was the case in some parishes but I never experienced that in any parish where I attended Mass pre Vat.II In all parishes I ever attended back then, any singing was done by the choir alone (FWIW, that’s still the way it is in the parish where I grew up) and any replies that weren’t sung were said by the altar boys.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I’ve heard that that was the case in some parishes but I never experienced that in any parish where I attended Mass pre Vat.II In all parishes I ever attended back then, any singing was done by the choir alone (FWIW, that’s still the way it is in the parish where I grew up) and any replies that weren’t sung were said by the altar boys.

So, what went on in New Orleans? Thank you, Phemie. I had not thought that we were exceptional…it was like that all over the Archdiocese. If we went to Mass at grandmother’s, aunt’s, or uncle’s parishes, the congregation sang an entrance hymn, chanted the Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei and responded to the priest for the Offertory, Secret and Preface. If I wasn’t serving and was out in the congregation with my folks…we sang. I’m not going to derail this thread and will take my conjectures to the Traditional Catholic forum.

 

[KathleenElsie]

How many Sunday Masses do you have at your parish? Mine has five. We don’t have five choirs, nor is it fair to expect the choir to show up at all five to keep a handful of people happy. Thus, the use of cantors. sigh

LOL there are some weeks that my daughter is the cantor for all three Masses.

 

[dandn5000]

But why do the people need to be singing in the first place? Couldn’t the choir do that instead?

Ah, yes, but you assume that there’s a choir in the first place. We don’t have one - we’re the organist/cantor(she should really only be doing the former, but ah well) and a couple of middle school kids in the choir loft at the 5PM Saturday Mass. Same for 8.00 AM Mass, and then 11AM is the guitar (ich) and a few cantors(one woman has a very, very high voice and a lisp all at once…double ich!)

I find that not only is it difficult not only for the congregation, but for us kids in the loft to sing without a cantor. We need that lead. If it isn’t there, nobody sings and the few people that do sound pitiful. This is only exacerbated by the fact that the only time we don’t have a cantor is when we don’t have an organ, so we have a spoken Mass. Father tries to have songs, but nobody sings without that blanket of a cantor to match their voices to.

 

[Alverno]

Unfortunately, many of the cantors I’ve come accross at various parishes have had little or no vocal training and not even any real instruction on how to be a cantor. In my opinion, if the Church really wants to give true importance to the role of the cantor, She needs to take Her quote seriously.

About 20 years ago I was a cantor. I received special training through a Diocese program which was paid for by my Pastor. I always had a good voice and since have a degree in voice. I guess it depends on the Diocese.

 

[Sarabande]

Unfortunately, many of the cantors I’ve come accross at various parishes have had little or no vocal training and not even any real instruction on how to be a cantor. In my opinion, if the Church really wants to give true importance to the role of the cantor, She needs to take Her quote seriously.

About 20 years ago I was a cantor. I received special training through a Diocese program which was paid for by my Pastor. I always had a good voice and since have a degree in voice. I guess it depends on the Diocese.

Yes… the diocese or at least the parish. I’ve attended masses all of the country and it’s more cantors not really being vocally trained or instructed in being a good cantor. The trained cantors seemed to be the exception.

 

[Sarabande]

Hand gestures from cantors do not go down well where I’m from either - very few cantors use them, even in cathedrals, and in my experience people find them thoroughly off-putting and distracting. A friend said to me once, “I feel like sucking my thumb when a cantor does that - I’m a grown-up and I know quite well when to sing, thank you very much.” But again, that’s a cultural thing. Personally, I think if the organist is doing his/her job and is consistent from week to week, gestures aren’t necessary.

Ha! Yes, as my friends and I call it, working like an “Air Traffic Controller”. Unfortunately, we’ve been required to use the gestures. I make them as indiscreet and small as possible, since I also get put off by doing them myself and seeing overly excited cantors doing it - especially those who think they need to “conduct”. haha!

I’ve worked in a Lutheran Church as a substitute for their “leader”. I’ve also worked in other Protestant churches as a soloist and/or their equivalent of a cantor for the congregational hymns. I never have to use hand gestures in these churches. The organist is excellent and the people come in when they’re supposed to. As long as the organist or instrumentalist does his/her job, the people will know when to come in for the hymn or for the next verse.

 

[Sarabande]

The only problem that sometimes occurs is that a few of them are professional opera singers, and when one of the sopranos is cantoring, the psalm is too high-pitched and it is difficult to sing the response. But that doesn’t happen too often, and it doesn’t seem to be a problem with the men.

Usually, soprano and tenor cantors do sing the psalms and hymns in the same keys as the alto and bass cantors. Once in while you might have someone who knows how to transpose on the spot or have a transposer on those electric organs.

What I find is that sometimes sopranos tend to not know how to sing with depth, so they sound incredibly treble-like, with no richness in the sound to give it a balance. When the voice sounds like it is mainly “treble-y”, it makes the listener feel as if they are singing in a higher key or that they need to strain their own voices if they are joining in with the singing.

I’m a Mezzo-Soprano and a professional opera singer, although I do know the difference of singing with my “opera” voice and my “church” voice. I’ve had people come up to me and say, “I love the mezzo voice. You sing in a key that I can sing in. I like the soprano, but I she sings too high.” They are very surprised when they discover that both the soprano and I are singing in the exact same keys. The difference is that although she has a nice voice, she does not sing with depth. She’s not grounded.

 

[Guitar]

Ha! Yes, as my friends and I call it, working like an “Air Traffic Controller”. Unfortunately, we’ve been required to use the gestures. I make them as indiscreet and small as possible, since I also get put off by doing them myself and seeing overly excited cantors doing it - especially those who think they need to “conduct”. haha!

I’ve worked in a Lutheran Church as a substitute for their “leader”. I’ve also worked in other Protestant churches as a soloist and/or their equivalent of a cantor for the congregational hymns. I never have to use hand gestures in these churches. The organist is excellent and the people come in when they’re supposed to. As long as the organist or instrumentalist does his/her job, the people will know when to come in for the hymn or for the next verse.

I have always guessed that many if not most cantors that use gestures have been “required to” and probably would not if they had a say. I have learned never to assume anything is actually the musician or singer’s own personal choice!!

I agree about the “grounded” sound. You would never know some sopranos are singing in soprano range till you try to sing along with them - they are so “comfortable” in their own voices it doesn’t sound high at all. Yet others make you feel being a soprano is terribly hard work and just listening to them makes you tense. Congregations pick up on that difference in sound in a cantor. An at-ease leader can encourage people to sing things that a less comfortable one can’t, even if its all in exactly the same key, because one makes people feel as though it’s too high and too hard and with the other, the thought never occurs to them so they just sing.

 

[Sarabande]

Ha! Yes, as my friends and I call it, working like an “Air Traffic Controller”. Unfortunately, we’ve been required to use the gestures. I make them as **indiscreet **and small as possible, since I also get put off by doing them myself and seeing overly excited cantors doing it - especially those who think they need to “conduct”. haha!

I meant** discreet.** Sorry I was writing very, very late at night - actually - really, really early in the morning.

 

[Sarabande]

I have always guessed that many if not most cantors that use gestures have been “required to” and probably would not if they had a say. I have learned never to assume anything is actually the musician or singer’s own personal choice!!

Yes, true. Where I can cantor, even if I didn’t know the other cantors and their views on how to cantor, I know which ones like to be the air traffic controller and which ones would prefer not to be that way.

I agree about the “grounded” sound. You would never know some sopranos are singing in soprano range till you try to sing along with them - they are so “comfortable” in their own voices it doesn’t sound high at all. Yet others make you feel being a soprano is terribly hard work and just listening to them makes you tense. Congregations pick up on that difference in sound in a cantor. An at-ease leader can encourage people to sing things that a less comfortable one can’t, even if its all in exactly the same key, because one makes people feel as though it’s too high and too hard and with the other, the thought never occurs to them so they just sing.

So, so true. I’m always quick to explain that ‘phenomenon’ to those who believe that sopranos are always singing in a different key for mass. And they are always surprised. It just never occurred to them - understandably.

I think you would agree that most music directors would **not **permit a cantor to transpose the music so that she can sing in a higher key. Most of that music is written within the normal range of an average person who has had no training. And as you said, a cantor who is grounded and comfortable will make the congregant feel comfortable to sing.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In my experience, cantors vary so much that it’s almost impossible to say anything that applies to them all. The ones I have seen vary from the “star of the show” types who act so showy and vain that it’s embarrassing, to the ones who are so “blended in” you really aren’t quite aware they’re there.

I think a lot of this singing business (and I love to sing) is determined by what is sung. For a time we had a soprano cantor (incredible voice) who somehow got the idea that leading responses called for arabesques so ornate and wide-ranging that they put me to mind of Anna Moffo singing “Una Voce Poco Fa”. My own response, and that of the congregation was pretty much only a mental “Huh?” There was no possibility whatever of following it.

In a neighboring parish, there are two women who alternate as cantors and, as I said, you can barely tell they are there at all. Their voices aren’t particularly good, but it works most of the time. Unfortunately, they sometimes end up as “soloists” (excruciating. I feel sorry for them) because of the music director’s evident belief that the songs have to change all the time. I am not averse to learning something new, but when they scour that (awful) “Glory and Praise” hymnal in order to present some new thing at every single Mass, I just find it tedious and frustrating and don’t even try.

I agree with those who have a problem with the ranges. I’m a baritone with a fair range. But a lot of songs are well above that, at least in part. I feel sorry for the basses, for whom there is absolutely nothing in any of the hymnals I am familiar with, (with one exceptional category, addressed below) so they end up taking a stab at singing an octave lower with mixed success, or just don’t sing at all.

The songs themselves can be off-putting. What male really wants to sing, e.g., “may our tears be turned into dancing”? Where did the author dream that one up? I’m sorry to be so politically incorrect, but to me, it’s just mincing and gay, and I refuse to sing the song. Maybe it’s out of the Bible somewhere, but in the context of our time and place, it’s just “off”. Some of it is so obvious an attempt to be “primitive church” or something that I just can’t stand it. What Catholic addresses God as “Yahweh” in prayer? Very few, I expect, so why do we sing “Yahweh, I know you are near…”? It’s just stilted, inexplicable and silly.

I hate to be this way, but the real exception to so many of these problems are the old “Protestant” songs. They’re simple, eminently singable, well adapted to male voices (and female Alto voices) and dignified. I have noticed that in various parishes, the congregation really does sing those, loud and well. Obviously, they have stood the test of time in the Protestant churches because they’re singable, not embarrassing and really do “register” in a spiritual sense with the congregants. To be fair, “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” is much like them (Can get a bit high on “everlasting”, of course, depending on the organist, but people obviously like to sing it.)
But thinking about it, who wouldn’t prefer to sing, e.g., “Abide with me, fast falls the eventide, etc” over “The snare of the fowler, etc”. The former is a personal first-person plea to a personal God. The latter, while likely from some psalm, is all symbolic and second-person; a “concept” song. If you look at most hymnals, you see that the copyrights for most songs are in the 1970s and early 1980s at the latest. In my humble opinion, it’s time we consigned Marty Haugen, Daniel Shutte and the St. Louis Jesuits (most of whom, I understand, went over the vocational hill anyway, so why keep paying them royalties?) to the dustbin of musical history and get some songwriters with talent. Until then, let’s sing “Old Hundredth” and “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”.

Personally, I prefer the cantors you can barely tell are there; the ones whose function it is to hit the first note first so people know when to start and on what note, and provide a little support. But when the music directors can’t live without imposing songs no one wants to sing, it makes their job and that of the congregation just painful.

Finally, I don’t think there is any reason to exclude old plain chant or Gregorian. People can actually sing it.

None of this means I don’t like good choirs. I do.

 

[Sarabande]

I think a lot of this singing business (and I love to sing) is determined by what is sung. For a time we had a soprano cantor (incredible voice) who somehow got the idea that leading responses called for arabesques so ornate and wide-ranging that they put me to mind of Anna Moffo singing “Una Voce Poco Fa”. My own response, and that of the congregation was pretty much only a mental “Huh?” There was no possibility whatever of following it.

Side Note: Anna Moffo, God rest her, is one of my favorite sopranos!!! She was also a very down-to-earth, loving and kind person, according to my voice teacher who knew her. You can hear that in her singing.

Back on track - Someone should have kindly instructed your soprano cantor to not ornament the music. Save that for Handel arias and the coloratura for Rossini.

In regards to hymns that congregations want to sing or can sing, I agree. At my parish, we use hymns that are simple to pick up and are recognizeable - especially since we are a Cathedral parish with lots of visitors. A lot of traditional melodies. We use music sheets, so that appropriate texts for the specifc Sundays can be set to those melodies for the low masses - or we use our Worship III books for the 11:00 mass.

I love the old Anglican hymn “Abide With Me”, too. Text is beautiful and so is the melody.

Also agree that plainchant is much easier to sing than what is believed. We’ve been doing it at our parish for years and years and the average person who attends mass there sings along. You don’t need a cantor for that. The cantor starts then backs off so you can’t hear them.

 

[CarrieH]

I think you would agree that most music directors would **not **permit a cantor to transpose the music so that she can sing in a higher key. Most of that music is written within the normal range of an average person who has had no training. And as you said, a cantor who is grounded and comfortable will make the congregant feel comfortable to sing.

As a soprano, I have actually requested a few things to be transposed down for the sake of the congregation. If I can sing it in my “best” range, it’s going to be too high for the folks in the pews.

I am glad to be in a parish now which has the cantors sing from the organ loft. There is no reason to go up front to the ambo and “conduct” the Psalm; they know when to come in (if they even bother to sing at all).