Cantors

[RWMorris]

I can’t even get my choir to come in for regular rehearsals much less afford to pay anyone to sing. Are you joking? My parish can’t afford to hardly pay me, much less a cantor.
I’ll add this: when congregations complain about the music, as a musician, I like to offer an invitation to COME HELP for free.

 

[JButky]

I can’t even get my choir to come in for regular rehearsals much less afford to pay anyone to sing. Are you joking? My parish can’t afford to hardly pay me, much less a cantor.
I’ll add this: when congregations complain about the music, as a musician, I like to offer an invitation to COME HELP for free.

I’m not joking. When you expect cheap or free, you don’t often get much. (including cantors) And while that may be forced upon some parishes with financial difficulties, it is certainly not the norm for many. IF there is no choir than it certainly shouldn’t be too difficult to pay some stipend for a trained musician to come in and provide this service.

Musicians have to eat too. And good, trained ones serving the liturgy are certainly worth it.

The Choir attendance phenomenon is not new, nor is the quality of cantors in this particular day and age. But that is the cultural norm (poor quality, cheap, too busy…take your pick of reasons).

This is also why the Cantor is often also the music director or they should be at least under the direction of the same (which is a paid (or should be paid) position, given the amount of hours needed to do the job correctly.

Joe B

 

[prv]

I’m not joking. When you expect cheap or free, you don’t often get much. (including cantors) And while that may be forced upon some parishes with financial difficulties, it is certainly not the norm for many. IF there is no choir than it certainly shouldn’t be too difficult to pay some stipend for a trained musician to come in and provide this service.

Musicians have to eat too. And good, trained ones serving the liturgy are certainly worth it.

The Choir attendance phenomenon is not new, nor is the quality of cantors in this particular day and age. But that is the cultural norm (poor quality, cheap, too busy…take your pick of reasons).

This is also why the Cantor is often also the music director or they should be at least under the direction of the same (which is a paid (or should be paid) position, given the amount of hours needed to do the job correctly.

Joe B

If the cantor is the music director, then he/she should be Catholic. Those who minister and lead in the Catholic Church should in fact be part of it. Now there is the rub when paying your cantor/music director. How many Catholics do you know that have extensive training enough to be paid as director of music?

Now, as far as the notion of “bringing up” the congregation to bring attention to oneself, that is ridiculous. The motion looks pretty silly for that purpose. Instead, it should be used when needed, but not to bring attention to oneself.

 

[netmilsmom]

Now, as far as the notion of “bringing up” the congregation to bring attention to oneself, that is ridiculous. The motion looks pretty silly for that purpose. Instead, it should be used when needed, but not to bring attention to oneself.

Oh Amen!

I don’t need to be conducted to respond at Holy Mass. I did fine, as did many others when the choir was in the choir loft behind and above us.

 

[thann]

…I don’t need to be conducted to respond at Holy Mass. I did fine, as did many others when the choir was in the choir loft behind and above us.

If every Mass you attend has a choir, you are definitely blessed!

Without some guidance (either a cantor or organist leading responses and getting folks started singing hymns), the congregation would be lost like sheep without a shepherd.

'thann

 

[netmilsmom]

Without some guidance (either a cantor or organist leading responses and getting folks started singing hymns), the congregation would be lost like sheep without a shepherd

In your opinion.
I lived for many years where the only one leading us was the priest. It is still that way in Daily Holy Mass at my parish.

We are making jobs for people where they are not needed. The priest can lead, the people can read.

Nuff said.

 

[pm1853]

In your opinion.
I lived for many years where the only one leading us was the priest. It is still that way in Daily Holy Mass at my parish.

We are making jobs for people where they are not needed. The priest can lead, the people can read.

Nuff said.

I agree. Without a cantor, the parish would do just fine with the priest intoning the hymns and whatnot. I say this as the music director AND cantor at my parish.

 

[netmilsmom]

I agree. Without a cantor, the parish would do just fine with the priest intoning the hymns and whatnot. I say this as the music director AND cantor at my parish.

Thank you!
And I must say, I love our Cantor too!

 

[thann]

In your opinion.
I lived for many years where the only one leading us was the priest. It is still that way in Daily Holy Mass at my parish.

We are making jobs for people where they are not needed. The priest can lead, the people can read.

Nuff said.

I respectfully disagree.

In my post I said “without some guidance,” so if a priest has the facility to intone responses and lead hymns, that’s wonderful.

Many priests I have met cannot (or will not) carry a tune in a bucket. It’s not their job to lead singing. It’s nice when they can and do, but in 40+ years of singing in parishes around the world, I’ve observed that it’s simply not a common occurrence.

As Joysong pointed out in another post, the GIRM indicates “104. It is fitting that there be a cantor or a choir director to lead and sustain the people’s singing. When in fact there is no choir, it is up to the cantor to lead the different chants, with the people taking part.”

When cantors are properly trained and humbly disposed, they provide a valuable ministry.

'thann

 

[SeekerJen]

Someone mentioned this in another thread about not wanting to be flamed for being a cantor and how people complain that they shouldn’t exist etc. So it got me thinking, how about a thread to discuss the matter : ). What are some objections people make against the idea of cantors (Lets look at the issue completely separate from the usual music you might hear from said cantor).

Formosus, has this answered your question RE my comment about cantors? We’re not generally well-liked around here.

 

[netmilsmom]

I respectfully disagree.

In my post I said “without some guidance,” so if a priest has the facility to intone responses and lead hymns, that’s wonderful.

Many priests I have met cannot (or will not) carry a tune in a bucket. It’s not their job to lead singing. It’s nice when they can and do, but in 40+ years of singing in parishes around the world, I’ve observed that it’s simply not a common occurrence.

As Joysong pointed out in another post, the GIRM indicates “104. It is fitting that there be a cantor or a choir director to lead and sustain the people’s singing. When in fact there is no choir, it is up to the cantor to lead the different chants, with the people taking part.”

“it is fitting” is not “it is necessary”
If you have one use it. Just not as the lead role of that part of mass.

And as for a priest not being able to sing, what does he do for weekday mass? or do you have a choir or cantor in the mornings?

 

[JButky]

As Joysong pointed out in another post, the GIRM indicates “104. It is fitting that there be a cantor or a choir director to lead and sustain the people’s singing. When in fact there is no choir, it is up to the cantor to lead the different chants, with the people taking part.”

Yes but that doesn’t mean needing to make gestures and the like. People will follow a strong voice(s). All the Cantor and/or choir need to do is to sing…That alone leads and sustains the people’s singing.

Joe B

 

[Mintaka]

I’m a cantor, and I agree. People are either going to join in or they won’t, but you should never have to use gestures to encourage them. You use your voice to do that, but as subtly as possible.

What’s really more important is to use your body and eyes and posture to indicate that you are praying. Not in some waving arms holy-go-pious way, either, but subtly. That way, everybody prays with you to God, instead of sitting back and watching you like you’re the show.

If you are stuck up front in everyone’s view at non-singing times, you have to stand or sit still, directing your attention to the priest (or the wall you see instead of the priest!) as strictly as possible. If you do that, people will look past you to what you’re paying attention to. In theory, anyway.

I will note, in defense of my colleagues out there, that it’s very difficult to learn to sing as a performance, and very difficult to stop performing once you learn. But it’s like any other mode of human behavior; you can shift back and forth to what’s needed at the moment. And in church, you’re there to sing as well as you can, but not to perform. You can perform for God later, if you like, at home. You are there to help worship Him.

 

[netmilsmom]

I’m a cantor, and I agree. People are either going to join in or they won’t, but you should never have to use gestures to encourage them. You use your voice to do that, but as subtly as possible.

What’s really more important is to use your body and eyes and posture to indicate that you are praying. Not in some waving arms holy-go-pious way, either, but subtly. That way, everybody prays with you to God, instead of sitting back and watching you like you’re the show.

If you are stuck up front in everyone’s view at non-singing times, you have to stand or sit still, directing your attention to the priest (or the wall you see instead of the priest!) as strictly as possible. If you do that, people will look past you to what you’re paying attention to. In theory, anyway.

I will note, in defense of my colleagues out there, that it’s very difficult to learn to sing as a performance, and very difficult to stop performing once you learn. But it’s like any other mode of human behavior; you can shift back and forth to what’s needed at the moment. And in church, you’re there to sing as well as you can, but not to perform. You can perform for God later, if you like, at home. You are there to help worship Him.

You are just what our Cantor is. A great leader guiding us to praise Our Lord.
Thank You!

 

[wisdom_3_5]

I will note, in defense of my colleagues out there, that it’s very difficult to learn to sing as a performance, and very difficult to stop performing once you learn. But it’s like any other mode of human behavior; you can shift back and forth to what’s needed at the moment. And in church, you’re there to sing as well as you can, but not to perform. You can perform for God later, if you like, at home. You are there to help worship Him.

Very well said! I was trying to explain this to my husband after my first few times cantoring, he’s not a singer so he didn’t understand. I did speak to another cantor about it and she knew EXACTLY what I was saying.

We do our best to give our best to the Lord and hopefully that enhances everyone’s experience, not to take away from the mass but to help people focus more on God.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

I will note, in defense of my colleagues out there, that it’s very difficult to learn to sing as a performance, and very difficult to stop performing once you learn. But it’s like any other mode of human behavior; you can shift back and forth to what’s needed at the moment. And in church, you’re there to sing as well as you can, but not to perform. You can perform for God later, if you like, at home. You are there to help worship Him.

Very well said! I was trying to explain this to my husband after my first few times cantoring, he’s not a singer so he didn’t understand. I did speak to another cantor about it and she knew EXACTLY what I was saying.

We do our best to give our best to the Lord and hopefully that enhances everyone’s experience, not to take away from the mass but to help people focus more on God.

 

[dranzal]

You know, I am also a cantor. Our “director of ministries” has requested that I give some sort of physical signal to bring the congregation in during the responsorial psalm. Usually I just raise one hand to about shoulder height for the first few words of the refrain. I do wish it wasn’t needed. I think that the idea is not only to cue people, but to almost pressure them into joining in. Our congregation would probably rather have a root canal than sing . I only function as a cantor for the response and the Alleluia. The rest of the liturgy is led by the choir–an entirely different issue.

I also agree with those who said that when all the musicians/vocalists are volunteers, you get what you pay for. We have had some musical train wrecks during Mass. Unfortunately, this included last year’s Easter Mass .

 

[sinner]

Our congregation would probably rather have a root canal than sing . I only function as a cantor for the response and the Alleluia. The rest of the liturgy is led by the choir–an entirely different issue.

.

Do you think that this may be a result of the choir and the cantor? If the choir and cantor sing songs that are beyond the reach of most congregants, then they clam up and sit, prefering to be entertained, than to participate. Example: I like silence in the liturgy especially during the Communion procession. But, if we are standing(as is our diocesan directive) with our faces in a hymnal singing non-stop throughout, then it is very difficult to feel “in communio” with those in the procession. Ergo, I stop singing so as to participate in the processional nature of the Communion rite.

I think too, that I am seeing an increase in the tendency to treat congregants as children. We are told that we will sing hymn #X verses 1…2…3…4…and 5. We figured out years ago when to “enter into the song” and I dislike the use of a misappropriated Orans posture by the cantor. With that said, I greatly love those who perform their liturgical roles with dignity and humility.

 

[JButky]

If the choir and cantor sing songs that are beyond the reach of most congregants, then they clam up and sit, prefering to be entertained, than to participate.

Just to clarify also…

Listening to the choir doesn’t have to mean “being entertained” as opposed to “actively participating”. JPII spoke very eloquently on the meaning of active participation through listening. If the congregation isn’t singing everything, it doesn’t mean that they are not actively particpating.

We have no way to be able to discern the congregation’s internal participation. Nor should we “force it” to become external.

Joe B

 

[netmilsmom]

You know, I am also a cantor. Our “director of ministries” has requested that I give some sort of physical signal to bring the congregation in during the responsorial psalm .

Did you ask the director of ministries why he thought the congregation was too stupid to follow along?