Capital punishment debate: Dr. Feser and Msgr. Swetland

[Wampa]

Recently the Drew Mariani Show (on Relevant Radio) did a 55-minute debate on the death penalty.

To listen online, go to relevantradio.streamguys.us/DM%20Archive/DM20170714c.mp3

To download the mp3, go to relevantradio.com/audios/the-drew-mariani-show, search for the word Feser, right-click on the word ‘Stream’ in ‘Hour 3 Stream’, and choose Save Link As.

On one side is Dr. Edward Feser, co-author of "By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed - A Catholic Defense of Capital Punishment” (ignatius.com/Products/MBS-P/by-man-shall-his-blood-be-shed.aspx).

On the other is Msgr. Stuart Swetland, one of the hosts of a different Relevant Radio show (“Go Ask Your Father”).

Aside from the times they excessively talked over each other, I found it edifying. Both made some really strong points, as well as fell down at times. Dr. Feser’s last point (about the murderer’s salvation) was quite interesting to me.

I don’t really post in the capital punishment threads here much, but I do read some of them and I know it’s a hot topic (the most recent thread was 41 pages).

Enjoy!

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Salvation is wonderful, but how do we protect society against psychopaths?

These guys in prison have all day to dream up new ways to kill people.

 

[GEddie]

Salvation is wonderful, but how do we protect society against psychopaths?

These guys in prison have all day to dream up new ways to kill people.

As does the state. It works both ways. The guillotine, the electric chair, gas chamber, lethal injection, nitrogen suffocation…

At least a criminal who kills you will go to prison. The state kills with impunity.

 

[Ender]

Recently the Drew Mariani Show (on Relevant Radio) did a 55-minute debate on the death penalty.

To listen online, go to relevantradio.streamguys.us/DM%20Archive/DM20170714c.mp3

To download the mp3, go to relevantradio.com/audios/the-drew-mariani-show, search for the word Feser, right-click on the word ‘Stream’ in ‘Hour 3 Stream’, and choose Save Link As.

On one side is Dr. Edward Feser, co-author of "By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed - A Catholic Defense of Capital Punishment” (ignatius.com/Products/MBS-P/by-man-shall-his-blood-be-shed.aspx).

On the other is Msgr. Stuart Swetland, one of the hosts of a different Relevant Radio show (“Go Ask Your Father”).

Aside from the times they excessively talked over each other, I found it edifying. Both made some really strong points, as well as fell down at times. Dr. Feser’s last point (about the murderer’s salvation) was quite interesting to me.

I don’t really post in the capital punishment threads here much, but I do read some of them and I know it’s a hot topic (the most recent thread was 41 pages).

Enjoy!

I’d like to think I’ll find the time to listen to this debate, but until that time do you recall what you thought was one of the strongest points Msgr. Swetland made?

Ender

 

[mikekle]

The people involved in carrying out death sentences(directly and indirectly) may have to answer for that when they stand before God too!

I have a feeling the old excuse of ‘just doing my job/ following orders’ will not be sufficient.

 

[GEddie]

The people involved in carrying out death sentences(directly and indirectly) may have to answer for that when they stand before God too!

I have a feeling the old excuse of ‘just doing my job/ following orders’ will not be sufficient.

Shhh…some people here are angrily pro-death penalty.

 

[Ubenedictus]

The people involved in carrying out death sentences(directly and indirectly) may have to answer for that when they stand before God too!

I have a feeling the old excuse of ‘just doing my job/ following orders’ will not be sufficient.

Isn’t this to heavy?

The Church does teach that under certain conditions the state may rightly use capital punishment, scriptures and tradition agreement, so maybe those who carry out such sentences are doing their job and may be considered just when they stand before God.

 

[Wampa]

I’d like to think I’ll find the time to listen to this debate, but until that time do you recall what you thought was one of the strongest points Msgr. Swetland made?

Sure. A little background: the debate early on really seemed to set up as a debate over whether or not the death penalty could (eventually) be declared intrinsically evil by the Church. They spent less time than I expected debating whether or not it’s a good idea (prudentially).

IMO, one of Swetland’s best arguments throughout the debate was comparing the development of doctrine on slavery with that of capital punishment (i.e. slavery was once permitted by the Church and is now seen as evil). Feser had several counters, both of which fell flat IMO (though I think that was due to his execution of the arguments; perhaps better arguments are out there).

I’m someone who has been on both sides of this debate at different times in my life and currently fall more on Feser’s side, so I’m not making this criticism out of allegiance to one side or the other.

I did think Feser wrapped up strong with some good points after faltering at several points early on.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The people involved in carrying out death sentences(directly and indirectly) may have to answer for that when they stand before God too!

I have a feeling the old excuse of ‘just doing my job/ following orders’ will not be sufficient.

Indeed. However, it will be too late at that point.

 

[Herculees]

I think for those crimes that SOME think people should put to death;
I would prefer that they be put in a cell with NO window and just
enough space to slide their food in three times a day and offer them
one book for life. NO visitors, NO recreation, NO exercise other than
what you do on your own in your cell.

 

[Ender]

The people involved in carrying out death sentences(directly and indirectly) may have to answer for that when they stand before God too!

I have a feeling the old excuse of ‘just doing my job/ following orders’ will not be sufficient.

Will that group include all the Fathers, Doctors of the Church, and popes who for nearly 2000 years recognized the legitimacy of capital punishment?

Ender

 

[Ender]

Sure. A little background: the debate early on really seemed to set up as a debate over whether or not the death penalty could (eventually) be declared intrinsically evil by the Church.

I don’t think this is even a remote possibility.*The death penalty is not intrinsically evil. Both Scripture and long Christian tradition acknowledge the legitimacy of capital punishment under certain circumstances. The Church cannot repudiate that without repudiating her own identity. *(Archbishop Chaput, 2005)

They spent less time than I expected debating whether or not it’s a good idea (prudentially).

I wouldn’t really expect them to. I imagine Msgr. Swetland can represent the church’s teachings better than he can address the practical concerns. He’s a priest, not a social scientist.

IMO, one of Swetland’s best arguments throughout the debate was comparing the development of doctrine on slavery with that of capital punishment (i.e. slavery was once permitted by the Church and is now seen as evil).

I think the church’s position on slavery was ambivalent; it was certainly not as clearly laid out as her position on capital punishment. This is a claim that as “she reversed herself on X she can reverse herself on capital punishment”, which I think fails. It suggests that every doctrine that has not been declared infallible is reversible. That’s not a position that would engender much confidence in her teaching. Besides, I really doubt much of an argument can be made that the church taught that states had a generic right to enslave people.

Ender

 

[Captain_America]

I know one and much respect the other, but don’t have the spare hour. Wish I had a long drive to make.

I’ve always felt, intuitively, that the death penalty is wrong. Can’t help not feeling and not thinking this.

 

[M-Dent]

The people involved in carrying out death sentences(directly and indirectly) may have to answer for that when they stand before God too!

I have a feeling the old excuse of ‘just doing my job/ following orders’ will not be sufficient.

Giovanni Battista Bugatti may be in Heaven for all we know. But his Salvation would not have been at risk due to the duties he carried out.

Church Teaching on the matter certainly allowed for the moral use of Capital Punishment in the past.

Today the Church rightfully questions the need for Capital Punishment, since Society can be protected otherwise. Yet, in some rare circumstances Capital Punishment may be quite merciful and moral.

 

[mikekle]

Giovanni Battista Bugatti may be in Heaven for all we know. But his Salvation would not have been at risk due to the duties he carried out.

Church Teaching on the matter certainly allowed for the moral use of Capital Punishment in the past.

Today the Church rightfully questions the need for Capital Punishment, since Society can be protected otherwise. Yet, in some rare circumstances Capital Punishment may be quite merciful and moral.

People today are extremely vengeful, they want blood. I read news articles about people being alleged of crimes and the 100s, sometimes 1000s of comments, majority of people are calling for their death in terrible ways, beating, hanging, beheading, etc…and this is BEFORE they even appear in court! I really think if they brought back public executions, they would be very popular.

 

[JimG]

Edward Feser comments on the debate with Msgr. Swetland here:
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2017/07/msgr-swetlands-confusions.html

“Msgr. Swetland’s “theological speculation” that capital punishment is intrinsically evil is, accordingly, simply heterodox. He has no right as a Catholic theologian to entertain it or to teach others that it is within the range of legitimate theological opinion.”

 

[M-Dent]

People today are extremely vengeful, they want blood. I read news articles about people being alleged of crimes and the 100s, sometimes 1000s of comments, majority of people are calling for their death in terrible ways, beating, hanging, beheading, etc…and this is BEFORE they even appear in court! I really think if they brought back public executions, they would be very popular.

I do agree people can be quite vengeful and through history some groups of people found entertainment in the spectacle of public executions - which I find quite disordered. I am against capital punishment for a number of reasons but one is not mistaking it for an intrinsic evil. Past executioners may have performed moral duties justly. I’m glad it’s becoming less and less a widespread profession.

 

[Ender]

Edward Feser comments on the debate with Msgr. Swetland here:
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2017/07/msgr-swetlands-confusions.html

Feser will entertain another debate at Notre Dame some time in early November. I don’t know who else will be there…but I certainly wish that I could be.

“Msgr. Swetland’s “theological speculation” that capital punishment is intrinsically evil is, accordingly, simply heterodox. He has no right as a Catholic theologian to entertain it or to teach others that it is within the range of legitimate theological opinion.”

This seems absolutely true to me.

Ender

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I see no inherent reason why the Church could not further specify a class of State Executions that are intrinsically evil. For example, it is always and everywhere wrong that CP be chosen when reasonable bloodless means of protecting society are available (eg modern day incarceration).

That in effect is what the Magisterium already holds as a matter of practical prudential judgement.

If this judgement were in fact to be clarified as actually being a moral precept and not merely a particular prudential judgement…then it would be in fact be close to what Swetlnd seems to be stating.

No big deal. Perfectly in accord with tradition also.

 

[IWantGod]

As does the state. It works both ways. The guillotine, the electric chair, gas chamber, lethal injection, nitrogen suffocation…

At least a criminal who kills you will go to prison. The state kills with impunity.

nice