Capital punishment never justified, Pope argues [CC]

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It is misleading to suggest the church has taken “different positions” on any issue. She has always had one and only one doctrine regarding capital punishment, which is that a state has a moral right to use it. That is, if you will, the rule. She has also acknowledged that its use may be constrained by circumstances; that is, she recognizes that there may be exceptions to the rule.

The opposition to its use today represents an exception to the rule. The current Magisterium opposes it because they believe its use is detrimental to the society that employs it. This assumption may be true, and it may not, but it does not represent a different “position” on capital punishment. It represents a judgment about its usefulness.Like the Pope, the bishops do not rule out capital punishment altogether, but they say that it is not justifiable as practiced in the United States today. In coming to this prudential conclusion, the magisterium is not changing the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine remains what it has been: that the State, in principle, has the right to impose the death penalty on persons convicted of very serious crimes. (Cardinal Dulles)
Ender
Ender, Maybe it’s just me but what you seem to have just said here is, I beleive, exactly what LongingSoul has been saying all along.
To me it just seems like you are using slightly different language to say or explain it.
 
It is misleading to suggest the church has taken “different positions” on any issue. She has always had one and only one doctrine regarding capital punishment, which is that a state has a moral right to use it. That is, if you will, the rule. She has also acknowledged that its use may be constrained by circumstances; that is, she recognizes that there may be exceptions to the rule.

The opposition to its use today represents an exception to the rule. The current Magisterium opposes it because they believe its use is detrimental to the society that employs it. This assumption may be true, and it may not, but it does not represent a different “position” on capital punishment. It represents a judgment about its usefulness.Like the Pope, the bishops do not rule out capital punishment altogether, but they say that it is not justifiable as practiced in the United States today. In coming to this prudential conclusion, the magisterium is not changing the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine remains what it has been: that the State, in principle, has the right to impose the death penalty on persons convicted of very serious crimes. (Cardinal Dulles)
Ender
Your quote doesn’t support your claim that the Churchs stance today is an ‘exception to the rule’. Aquinas says “All who sin mortally are deserving of eternal death, as regards future retribution, which is in accordance with the truth of the divine judgment. But the punishments of this life are more of a medicinal character; wherefore the punishment of death is inflicted on those sins alone which conduce to the grave undoing of others.”

‘Medicinal’ treatments are the exception, not the rule. Lifes inviolability and therefore preservation are the rule. God hates death and requires we reserve such a measure only as a medicinal antidote.

The Church does have a different position today. Why play silly word games. In the past the Church in response to questions surrounding civil justice at that time, defended the states right to use capital punishment as behoved by the common good. Today the Church in response to questions surrounding civil justice, proscribes the use of capital punishment because society is naturally rejecting its use as uncivil and damaging to the common good. There are new ‘medicines’ today to treat the ‘diseases’ that previously had not other treatment.

There is no rule other than death is permitted in civil justice if it serves the common good.
 
Your quote doesn’t support your claim that the Churchs stance today is an ‘exception to the rule’.
Well, here’s the doctrine (aka the rule):“The doctrine remains what it has been: that the State, in principle, has the right to impose the death penalty
Since the doctrine has not changed, opposition to the use of capital punishment at this time represents the exception.
Aquinas says "All who sin mortally are deserving of eternal death, as regards future retribution, which is in accordance with the truth of the divine judgment. But the punishments of this life are more of a medicinal character; wherefore the punishment of death is inflicted on those sins alone which conduce to the grave undoing of others."
That a punishment has a medicinal character doesn’t limit its use. If it meant what you appear to believe, the rest of that sentence (not in bold) would be self contradictory. If Aquinas meant that punishments had to heal the criminal he could hardly have asserted they should be "inflicted on those sins alone which conduce to the grave undoing of others." You can’t have him saying both that it should and should not be used.
‘Medicinal’ treatments are the exception, not the rule.
Where does he suggest that? Where does anyone other than you suggest that? I think you have misunderstood what is being said here.*The medicinality of penalty is not merely a function of “stopping” an offense, nor merely of deterring, but of manifesting the truth regarding the transcendent order of justice and the wickedness of the offense. Without this manifestation of truth in penalty, social healing is not promoted. The medicinal value is not merely one of stopping prospective injustice, but of teaching and manifesting the truth. *(Stephen A. Long, Univ. of St. Thomas)
I’m pretty sure "teaching and manifesting the truth" are not exceptions to the rule.
Lifes inviolability and therefore preservation are the rule.
Life is precious but it is not inviolate, otherwise there would be no instances where it could legitimately be taken.
The Church does have a different position today. Why play silly word games.
You use words that are vague and misleading, like “position.” Clearly that does not mean doctrine. It means nothing more than there are currently objections to its use. This is nothing different than the (prudential) objections raised against its use in particular instances in the past. The doctrine is unchanged and similar objections have been raised in the past. There is nothing new here.
In the past the Church in response to questions surrounding civil justice at that time, defended the states right to use capital punishment as behoved by the common good.
“At that time”? You mean until 1995?
Today the Church in response to questions surrounding civil justice, proscribes the use of capital punishment because society is naturally rejecting its use as uncivil and damaging to the common good.
The belief that the use of capital punishment is harmful is a judgment, and while the church can recommend that it not be used she cannot proscribe its use because that would be to abrogate the doctrine that its use is a right all legitimate States possess.

Ender
 
Ender, Maybe it’s just me but what you seem to have just said here is, I beleive, exactly what LongingSoul has been saying all along.
To me it just seems like you are using slightly different language to say or explain it.
There are times when we say the same thing. She has recognized that the current objections to the use of capital punishment are prudential. If she stopped there we would have nothing to debate, however she doesn’t stop at that point.

My position is simply this: the objections from the last three popes and the many bishops who have spoken out are prudential judgments. These opinions may or may not be accurate, but they do not oblige our assent, and they do not represent a change to the doctrine. There are in fact no doctrinal objections to the use of capital punishment; it is as morally justifiable today as it ever was. Whether its use is helpful or harmful to the society that employs it is debatable, but that is a practical question, not a moral one.

Ender
 
There are times when we say the same thing. She has recognized that the current objections to the use of capital punishment are prudential. If she stopped there we would have nothing to debate, however she doesn’t stop at that point.

My position is simply this: the objections from the last three popes and the many bishops who have spoken out are prudential judgments. These opinions may or may not be accurate, but they do not oblige our assent, and they do not represent a change to the doctrine. There are in fact no doctrinal objections to the use of capital punishment; it is as morally justifiable today as it ever was. Whether its use is helpful or harmful to the society that employs it is debatable, but that is a practical question, not a moral one.

Ender
I beleive you might be missing the point I was trying to make.

You can say “she has recognized that the current objections are prudential” as if her recognizing it had something to do with what you say in all your posts all you want. What I am trying to tell you is from what I am getting out of LongingSoul’s posts is she has been saying this all along. Maybe I’m wrong I don’t know, but I really do believe you are trying to find something wrong in her posts that just isn’t there.
 
Well, here’s the doctrine (aka the rule):“The doctrine remains what it has been: that the State, in principle, has the right to impose the death penalty
Since the doctrine has not changed, opposition to the use of capital punishment at this time represents the exception.
The doctrine is clearly articulated in the Catechisms in the context of the fifth Commandment. Even back in the day the Catechism of Trent treated it within the same context of the fifth Commandment “Thou shall not kill”.

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The*** just*** use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life.* Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. - Catechism of Trent under the Fifth Commandment

The death penalty is moral if it is justly used. The end of civil punishment is the ‘preservation and security of human life’. This has always been part of the Church position. When the DPs use is discussed/debated prescribed/proscribed by society, it is always a matter of justice. It is never just a matter of personal preference. To say that the Church’s strongly articulated position for abolition is nothing more than meaningless personal opinions is the most ridiculous argument to use here. The Church instituted by Christ and the natural moral compass…is obliged to teach and inform society on morality and faith.
That a punishment has a medicinal character doesn’t limit its use. If it meant what you appear to believe, the rest of that sentence (not in bold) would be self contradictory. If Aquinas meant that punishments had to heal the criminal he could hardly have asserted they should be "inflicted on those sins alone which conduce to the grave undoing of others." You can’t have him saying both that it should and should not be used.
Do you think that by medicinal, we are only referring to the health of the criminal here? Of course not. Medicinal refers to the health of society. The general health. The common good. That is the goal of the state whether left or right leaning in its politics. The health of that entity.
‘Medicinal’ treatments are the exception, not the rule.
Where does he suggest that? Where does anyone other than you suggest that? I think you have misunderstood what is being said here.*The medicinality of penalty is not merely a function of “stopping” an offense, nor merely of deterring, but of manifesting the truth regarding the transcendent order of justice and the wickedness of the offense. Without this manifestation of truth in penalty, social healing is not promoted. The medicinal value is not merely one of stopping prospective injustice, but of teaching and manifesting the truth. *(Stephen A. Long, Univ. of St. Thomas)
I’m pretty sure "teaching and manifesting the truth" are not exceptions to the rule.

I myself don’t put any stock in American academics desperately trying to keep the death penalty. I prefer the documents that come from the Magisterium and the teachings of Popes to learn about faith and morality issues. I 100% disagree with his claim that ‘medicinal’ relates to any special authority to mainifest 'the transcendent order of justice. The ‘state’ has no innate divine quality. It only ‘manifests’ truth if it has the common good at its heart. It is only an agent of God by virtue of its administration of the common welfare of the community it is responsible for. Both you and he seem to believe that the state like the Pope, is a divine institution. That was the error of Martin Luther that lead to the Divine right of kings theory.
Life is precious but it is not inviolate, otherwise there would be no instances where it could legitimately be taken.
That is your erroneous opinion. In the same way that a vaccination works, in defense of life sometimes it could be necessary use the horrible disease itself. But only if it were to promote health. To use such a horrible measure ‘on principle’ alone is sick and evil and goes against principle itself.

God proclaims that he is absolute Lord of the life of man, who is formed in his image and likeness (cf. Gen 1:26-28). Human life is thus given a sacred and inviolable character, which reflects the inviolability of the Creator himself. Precisely for this reason God will severely judge every violation of the commandment “You shall not kill”, the commandment which is at the basis of all life together in society. He is the “goel”, the defender of the innocent (cf. Gen 4:9-15; Is 41:14; Jer 50:34; Ps 19:14). God thus shows that he does not delight in the death of the living (cf. Wis 1:13). Only Satan can delight therein: for through his envy death entered the world (cf. Wis 2:24). He who is “a murderer from the beginning”, is also “a liar and the father of lies” (Jn 8:44). By deceiving man he leads him to projects of sin and death, making them appear as goals and fruits of life. Evangelium Vitae
 
You use words that are vague and misleading, like “position.” Clearly that does not mean doctrine. It means nothing more than there are currently objections to its use. This is nothing different than the (prudential) objections raised against its use in particular instances in the past. The doctrine is unchanged and similar objections have been raised in the past. There is nothing new here.
The death penalty has been around forever as an option in civil justice. It wasn’t invented by the Church and therefore her treatment of it relates only to its moral and just use by the state. Whether she has defended its use in the past or proscribes its use now. It is neither intrinsically evil or essential for justice. It is an extreme penalty that serves a specific medicinal purpose but is forbidden without question if it damages society.

Our Lord forbids the uprooting of the cockle, when there is fear lest the wheat be uprooted together with it.- Summa Theologica, Vengeance
The belief that the use of capital punishment is harmful is a judgment, and while the church can recommend that it not be used she cannot proscribe its use because that would be to abrogate the doctrine that its use is a right all legitimate States possess.
The Church is clearly and forcefully calling for its abolition nowadays through encyclicals and homilies and through Popes pastoral teaching. That is because its use is clearly harming the dignity of humans and in such circumstances is forbidden by God. You may think the Church is irrelevant white noise in this issue, but that’s just you.
 
I beleive you might be missing the point I was trying to make.

You can say “she has recognized that the current objections are prudential” as if her recognizing it had something to do with what you say in all your posts all you want. What I am trying to tell you is from what I am getting out of LongingSoul’s posts is she has been saying this all along. Maybe I’m wrong I don’t know, but I really do believe you are trying to find something wrong in her posts that just isn’t there.
👍 Ender is trying his hardest to make me the antagonist against Church teaching here. It’s like when Billy has Johnny pinned to the floor thumping him but its Billy yelling out for the help from Mum. 😉
 
I agree with Ender. There has been no change to the doctrine on capital punishment. The doctrine of the Church has always allowed for the Church to have a change in Her prudential opinion concerning the question of whether or not it is currently needed. But today’s teaching of the Church has still not said that capital punishment is intrinsically evil. Therefore, the doctrine has not changed. Today’s change in the “position” of the Church on whether or not capital punishment is needed is Her prudential judgment. So today the Church says that capital punishment is not needed, but it’s possible that She could change Her prudential opinion on it again later if it seems to the Church that the ability of modern society to keep murderers from killing again is seriously deficient. Even if prison systems are good today there’s no guarantee that they will be good tomorrow. And prison systems around the world are not equal.
 
👍 Ender is trying his hardest to make me the antagonist against Church teaching here. It’s like when Billy has Johnny pinned to the floor thumping him but its Billy yelling out for the help from Mum. 😉
And you Mum is not going to be able to help you against Ender.
 
In general, it cannot be shown that the death penalty is, or is not, a deterrent to murder. However, the death penalty satisfied the need for retribution, protection of society, and ensuring that the offender does not commit repeat offences. Just a couple of problems - there is no such thing as absolute justice, and miscarriages of justice resulting in the execution of innocent people is well documented. Think of the execution of Jesus himself, on Good Friday, which we celebrate today.

Additionally, the first murder was committed by Cain who murdered his brother, Abel. The punishment inflicted by God was not physical death, but being cast out from his community with the mark of his sin on him. It seems that we are being shown here to use alternatives to the death penalty if they are available.
 
In general, it cannot be shown that the death penalty is, or is not, a deterrent to murder. However, the death penalty satisfied the need for retribution, protection of society, and ensuring that the offender does not commit repeat offences. Just a couple of problems - there is no such thing as absolute justice, and miscarriages of justice resulting in the execution of innocent people is well documented. Think of the execution of Jesus himself, on Good Friday, which we celebrate today.

Additionally, the first murder was committed by Cain who murdered his brother, Abel. The punishment inflicted by God was not physical death, but being cast out from his community with the mark of his sin on him. It seems that we are being shown here to use alternatives to the death penalty if they are available.
However, “if they are available” is the debatable question. Even in America, the country that is supposed to be the model for the argument to end capital punishment, there are examples of murders that happen in prison and murderers that escape or are released and murder again.

The crowd that wanted to crucify Jesus (the innocent one) was the same crowd that wanted to release Barabbas (the murderer). So, with that example, I see a parallel with how most of the people today who want to end capital punishment (“release to us Barab′bas”) are the same ones who want no limits on abortions, which kill millions of innocent babies (“Crucify, crucify him!”).
 
So, with that example, I see a parallel with how most of the people today who want to end capital punishment (“release to us Barab′bas”) are the same ones who want no limits on abortions, which kill millions of innocent babies (“Crucify, crucify him!”).
Do you mean that the Pope has a hidden agenda?
 
Do you mean that the Pope has a hidden agenda?
I said “most people today.” I was not talking about the Pope. And since he has never been an advocate for abortion there’s no reason to interpret what I said as applying to him. But most people who are for ending capital punishment also insist on killing innocent babies with abortion. And that’s essentially the same thing as when the crowd was saying “release to us Barab′bas” but shouting “Crucify, crucify him!” in regard to Jesus. Do you see the parallel? The crowd wanted to release the convicted murderer but wanted to put the innocent one to death. That’s how the culture is today.
 
I said “most people today.” I was not talking about the Pope. And since he has never been an advocate for abortion there’s no reason to interpret what I said as applying to him. But most people who are for ending capital punishment also insist on killing innocent babies with abortion. And that’s essentially the same thing as when the crowd was saying “release to us Barab′bas” but shouting “Crucify, crucify him!” in regard to Jesus. Do you see the parallel? The crowd wanted to release the convicted murderer but wanted to put the innocent one to death. That’s how the culture is today.
So what is the point you’re trying to make? That if ‘most people’ who support abolition of the death penalty support abortion… that that is a good reason to retain the death penalty?
 
So what is the point you’re trying to make? That if ‘most people’ who support abolition of the death penalty support abortion… that that is a good reason to retain the death penalty?
The point is that it is hypocritical and without moral merit to be against capital punishment but while being for abortion just as the crowd that voted to crucify Jesus earned no merit by insisting that Barabbas be set free. If someone is against capital punishment and against abortion then there’s merit in that. But that’s not how today’s culture is. My comment is about the culture.
 
The point is that it is hypocritical and without moral merit to be against capital punishment but while being for abortion just as the crowd that voted to crucify Jesus earned no merit by insisting that Barabbas be set free. If someone is against capital punishment and against abortion then there’s merit in that. But that’s not how today’s culture is. My comment is about the culture.
The Church is affirming something positive about the increasing cultural rejection of the death penalty.

*This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God’s plan for man and society.- EV *

Many people *do *support abortion on the erroneous assumption that human rights don’t begin until certain levels of development… but are still properly oriented to what human rights and the inviolability of human life means. Otherwise, if you honestly examine your conscience and find sin in your life… you too would feel that you had no right to espouse Catholic positions on life issues.
 
Otherwise, if you honestly examine your conscience and find sin in your life… you too would feel that you had no right to espouse Catholic positions on life issues.
I was presenting the objective truth of the matter. Did the crowd that voted to crucify Jesus earn any merit for themselves by insisting that Barabbas be set free?
 
I was presenting the objective truth of the matter. Did the crowd that voted to crucify Jesus earn any merit for themselves by insisting that Barabbas be set free?
That’s not the issue. No one is proposing that capital punishment be abolished so that more babies can be aborted. I’m a bit disturbed by your implication! I think you are trying to set up the accusation that anyone who supports abolition of the death penalty, supports abortion?? I know there is a logical fallacy at work here but I’m curious for you to reveal your hand!
 
The death penalty is moral if it is justly used.
True, and its use is just when it is* “commensurate with the gravity of the crime”. We may disagree about whether its use is advisable but there will seldom be a question about it being just.
*
The end of civil punishment is the ‘preservation and security of human life’.
No, you changed that statement in a rather significant way. What Trent said was that the end of the (fifth) *commandment *is the preservation and security of human life; it absolutely did not say that about punishment. The primary end of punishment is retribution - retributive justice.
This has always been part of the Church position.
That has never been part of the church’s position, since what you said is not what she said.
When the DPs use is discussed/debated prescribed/proscribed by society, it is always a matter of justice.
No, it is always a matter of prudence. The church simply by recognizing that states have a moral right to employ it has settled the issue of whether it is a just punishment.
It is never just a matter of personal preference.
True.
To say that the Church’s strongly articulated position for abolition is nothing more than meaningless personal opinions is the most ridiculous argument to use here.
I suppose it would be if someone had actually made that argument, but since it is totally your invention it is the ridiculous argument.
The Church instituted by Christ and the natural moral compass…is obliged to teach and inform society on morality and faith.
Morality and faith, yes, but what we are discussing is not the morality of capital punishment - the church settled that issue centuries ago - what we are debating is the advisability of its use, not its morality.
I myself don’t put any stock in American academics desperately trying to keep the death penalty.
You pretty much disregard arguments that counter your own regardless of the source.
I prefer the documents that come from the Magisterium and the teachings of Popes to learn about faith and morality issues.
If that was true you wouldn’t so easily dismiss nearly 2000 years of church teaching on this subject. In fact you discount virtually everything the church has said prior to the middle of the last century.
That is your erroneous opinion.
It actually isn’t my opinion; the church teaches that life may legitimately be taken in three instances. Innocent life is inviolate, others not so much.

Ender
 
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