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graciew
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I agree with you.
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Brendan
Guest
The response was not in regards to any particular type of guard or inmate. Nor could it have been, since it involved the examination of the sentence assigned to a maefactor
Note that the CCC “if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor”
Elena321 was incorrectly limiting the CCC statement to just the public, when it refers to all human life.
Thus the determination on the just use of capital punishment in a particular case would require that it examine the effectiveness of any means chosen to safeguard ALL humans. Other prisoners and guards included.
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shockerfan
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One possible example I can come up with where the death penalty could be justified would be that of a drug lord who has a vast power base and can, from his jail cell, direct the murder of others. Can’t deny him access to a lawyer, and because of that, the lawyer could be used to pass on such orders.
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SWolf
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With the three examples stated, it IS only prudential judgement. We are required to respectfully listen, but not necessarily agree.
Frankly, when in comes to the Pope reciting infallible teachings like abortion, birth control, etc, I hear a lot of “wellll, the Church needs to get with the times…”
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SWolf
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Soooo… Church teaching on an aspect of morality was wrong then? Doesn’t that leave all of Catholic ethics open then?
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estesbob
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And therein lies the problem. The idea that morality changes over time.
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ProVobis
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Bob, it’s called better understanding of the psychology behind the acts.
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estesbob
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I know . That is why so many denominations have embraced homosexual marriage . The attitude that we are the most enlightened generation in the history of man and understand these things much better than all that went before us .Bob, it’s called better understanding of the psychology behind the acts.
To read these threads one would believe that a Catholic has to parse the words of every sermon the Pope gives to determine if Church teaching has changed since the week before .
I totally agree with the Pope that the death penalty is never appropriate .I also vehemently disagree with those who claim the Church has changed it’s teaching and Catholics are required to oppose the death penalty .
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ProVobis
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Right. Many people confuse teachings with disciplines.
I would say this. I agree with the Pope, if only because we have more advanced and humane ways of dealing with true menaces to society.
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graciew
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No , I don t think so. But technology.and communication are putting thr most vulnerable in danger in the blink of an eye.
I think it was Ender who once explained to me thus was prudential. And I am not talking about everything else here. Again , the world is huge…
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Tsuwano
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This is not a problem, it’s reality. Of course morality, or at least our understanding of morality and the obligations required to lead a Christian life, change over time. The ownership of slaves is no longer acceptable for Christians, though it was once permissible. The imprisonment by Church authorities of those who taught against the Church and her doctrines was once thought acceptable, but that has also changed. Such imprisonment today would be labeled as a miscarriage of justice and an abuse of power. Burning heretics at the stake was once thought a moral thing to do, but I believe most Christians believe it to be immoral today . . . though I could be wrong about that one. Isolating lepers from society was also thought to be a moral act. We know better today. In fact, Jesus himself knew better 2,000 years ago. It is not necessarily that morality changes, but that we change to conform ourselves to a greater and deeper understanding of what constitutes moral action. Actions of the past, though thought to be moral at the time, are not thought to be moral today in the light of the development of doctrine and our understanding of what Christ calls us to. We are constantly attempting to conform ourselves to the will of God. Our understanding of the death penalty and how it contradicts the life of a Christian has developed and continues to be developed. I predict that in time there will be no tolerance for the death penalty among Christians at all.
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Tsuwano
Guest
I think I can agree with your final statement here for the moment, though I do think the Church is in the process of changing its understanding (and therefore its teaching) on the death penalty. But for now, you’re right. Catholics are not required to oppose the death penalty, though I do believe there is an obligation to seek conformity with the act of imposing and enacting a death sentence with the call to lead a Christian life.
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Tbrightson
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Two words to the Pope:
Willie Horton.
( And no, he is not the brother of the coffee shop Mogul from Canada
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Willie Horton.
( And no, he is not the brother of the coffee shop Mogul from Canada
)
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ProVobis
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Just because it was permissible didn’t make it morally right ever. There was a whole Civil War over that issue, among other things.
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SWolf
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No it’s not. It’s silly to assume we have a more enlightened view of morality than the people of say, Medieval Europe.
It’s easy to say lepers should not be quarantined now, but a leper being among the general population before sanitation could devastate a city.
It’s easy to say a heretic should not be punished with imprisonment today, but in Medieval times a heresy could rip a society to shreds, or at least weaken it enough that the Muslim armies constantly at Europe’s door could gain control.
It’s easy to be against the death penalty now, with a generally strong police force that can curtail most violence. It’s harder when a group of bandits even the State can not take down commits atrocious violence, and the leader can easily be broken out of jail, have officials bribed, or even run his empire in prison.
Also, slavery is not condemned even in modern times, but the Church has always condemned chattel slavery. It’s still considered justified for criminals and POWs to be forced into labor.
Why we can be rid of many of these punishments is not because we are more morally enlightened, but because we have it easy.
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Tsuwano
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Two words back: Jesus ChristTwo words to the Pope:
Willie Horton.
( And no, he is not the brother of the coffee shop Mogul from Canada
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Tsuwano
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Yes, you’re correct, of course. Slavery was never morally right, even though it was seen as such. I’m not merely refering to American slavery, but also to the slavery which was practiced by the Romans and many other ancient and not so ancient civilizations.
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Tsuwano
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I think our view of what constitutes a moral life has changed over the centuries. I think the changes we have seen, our view of slavery for example, have generally created better societies and made us more aware of our obligations as Christians. This doesn’t make us more moral, necessarily, but it does make us more aware of what constitutes morality. Your point about the death penalty is one I can agree with. The death penalty is no longer permissable precisely because our social and justice systems have developed to the point that such a penalty is no longer necessary to protect society from immediate danger. This is what the Church has said in the Catechism. It is because we are safer that there is no excuse for utilizing the death penalty in our age. If it is easy to be against the death penaltynow, it is because society has changed for the better and we have become more aware of our moral obligations.
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Tbrightson
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Tell it to Willie
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saintjohnxxiii
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You mean the same Jesus Christ who actually sanctioned the DP in Matthew 18:6 where he said this:
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