Captain Roniel Aledo / Bishop Fellay (attempted) Debate

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fogny:

There is clearly 2 truths present in the Latin Church today.

1. The Christ centered Church prior to Vatican II
2. The Man centered Church today.

If it keeps up you will have just Eucharistic ministers, not a Priest to be found.

Fogny

Thanks!

We only need to give you a little rope and then you hang yourself.

This comment shows the lengths schismatics will go to try and prove themselves.

So the Church is in error now, even with the Holy Spirit to guide it, and the SSPX is the true Church now?

Wow, how does one respond to such delusion?

 

[EddieArent]

ByzCath:

Only settled by time?

SSPX will grow or it will wither away?

So if it grows then you think it is true?

Then you must think that protestantism and islam are true becuase of their growth.

Growth of a schismatic group proves nothing except for the fact that many love schism over the truth.

The SSPX will grow. Protestantism and Islam are on the growth. Well, probably the later more than the first. Just take a look at the numerous Bishops visiting Protestants here in America, Hindus visiting Bishops in Fatima, and even a story about Catholics & Muslims in England the other day, etc. and even actively participating in them. Do these events express truth or a disrespect for the Church and the 1st Commandment? Let’s ask Cardinal Casper what he thinks because it’s his opinion that matters, not the opinion of Popes pre-Vatican II that rejected these ideas.

Then again some people think it’s Archbishop Lefebrve controling the Vatican and the world’s Bishop’s from the dead when it comes to the appointment of Cardinals like that of Mahoney and such so called “ecumenical” events that doubt the seriousness of the one, True Faith.

 

[katolik]

No one has ever called the SSPX the only true Church , not even themselves. To think such just shows that y’all don’t even know what the SSPX is. You are like the boxer St.Paul describes in one of his epistles. You punch the air, but not the enemy.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

katolik:

No one has ever called the SSPX the only true Church , not even themselves. To think such just shows that y’all don’t even know what the SSPX is. You are like the boxer St.Paul describes in one of his epistles. You punch the air, but not the enemy.

You are correct, as the SSPX are nothing more than schismatics.

No need to enter a debate with them as they are already starting off in defiance of the Church and its Teachings so they have already lost.

 

[Fogny]

Sean O L:

Amen!

Fogny, there is only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC Church instituted by Christ, maintained by the Holy Spirit, until the END of the WORLD. That Church (which has endured much suffering over the last two thousand odd years is visible and under the Vicar of Christ in Rome - currently being Pope John Paul II.

You are suffering from a delusion. I hope it goes away quickly.

What you are saying is heterodox.

What I am saying is I live in a community of 400,000 we have 1 ordained priest for a indult mass that is given at 8:30 am on Sunday about 40 minutes away. I would like to attend daily, but this is not the case. 8 years ago I traveled for a hour and half for Mass, so things have gotten better. The parishes where I live are not to my liking. I thank JPII for the charity of letting me worship as I wish and also my Bishop.
As for the present Church it has temporarily lost its way and I am passionate at times about the Church I was confirmed in.
Pope Paul VI said “The smoke (incense, sacrafice) of Satan has entered the Church” I point this out not to inflame, but to ask the important question was he wrong.

Fogny

 

[katolik]

ByzCath:

You are correct, as the SSPX are nothing more than schismatics.

No need to enter a debate with them as they are already starting off in defiance of the Church and its Teachings so they have already lost.

I was refering to you, sir not to anyone else. You don’t know what you’re punching against… You are openly persecuting Catholics just like St.Athanasius was persecuted by Arians.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

katolik:

ByzCath:

You are correct, as the SSPX are nothing more than schismatics.

No need to enter a debate with them as they are already starting off in defiance of the Church and its Teachings so they have already lost.

I was refering to you, sir not to anyone else. You don’t know what you’re punching against… You are openly persecuting Catholics just like St.Athanasius was persecuted by Arians.

I figured that but your quote works better against the SSPXers and those “rad-Trads” here who support them.

By the way, those who support the SSPX in their schism are not Catholics, they are schismatics.

I am not persecuting anyone. Just stating facts.

 

[katolik]

ByzCath:

I figured that but your quote works better against the SSPXers and those “rad-Trads” here who support them.

By the way, those who support the SSPX in their schism are not Catholics, they are schismatics.

I am not persecuting anyone. Just stating facts.

Then you are also a schismatic. I’m just stating the facts, dude.

St.Athanasius was considered to be a schismatic and was deposed from his see by Arians. How dare he object to the bishops even if they are Arians!!! Yeah,sure whatever you say…

 

[TNT]

ByzCath:

I figured that but your quote works better against the SSPXers and those “rad-Trads” here who support them.

By the way, those who support the SSPX in their schism are not Catholics, they are schismatics.
Just stating facts.

Good. Then does the following apply:

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO - DECREE ON ECUMENISM

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

This is one of the many reasons I don’t go bonkers about my wife being an SSPX’r from prot.
Just stating facts
ps I have about 10 pages more of these affirmations by VatII and the recent popes. They all say the same essential thing, even praying with those who “are not Catholics”.

 

[Sean_O_L]

Windmill wrote elsewhere:
["Is there an official church document that refers to the current form of the Mass as the “Novus Ordo”? I mean, the name is in Latin, like it is the official name. But I’ve heard elsewhere that this is merely a slur used by Traditionalists to cast doubt upon the validity of the rite.]("Is there an official church document that refers to the current form of the Mass as the “Novus Ordo”? I mean, the name is in Latin, like it is the official name. But I’ve heard elsewhere that this is merely a slur used by Traditionalists to cast doubt upon the validity of the rite.)

In 1969 Pope Paul VI promulgated the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum. At THAT point in time it was the “new Order” (of liturgy) of the Mass for Roman Rite Catholics. It was NOT described in the Roman Missal as the “Novus Ordo” – but was described in the same way as have all preceeding Missals authorized by Popes going back to the time of St Pius V as the “Roman Missal.” It was promulgated exactly with the same authority and under the same name (“Missale Romanum”) as that produced under Pope St Pius V and his successors.

Of course, dissidents in all ages have attempt to disparage that which displeases them by heaping slurs on the object of their displeasure, and attempt to demean the same with obnoxious names. Such is the case with so-called “traditionalists” who have demeaned the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the normative liturgy of the Roman Rite – the 1969 “Roman Missal.”

I have posted elsewhere Bishop Rifan of Campos, Brazil’s full reply to the self-same “traditionalists” who have criticized him for concelebrating Mass in this liturgy: he wrote:

uvoc.org/#concelebration

Bishop Rifan Answers Questions About alleged Concelebration

…]
Some persons have questioned the occasional participation of Dom Fernando and some of his priests in Masses celebrated in the Rite of Paul VI.

Dom Fernando is a Catholic bishop, member of the Catholic episcopate, in communion with the Holy Father the Pope. Thus, like every Catholic bishop, even those of a different rite, he must demonstrate this full communion practically.

No one can be Catholic while remaining in an attitude of refusal of communion with the Pope and with the Catholic episcopate. In fact, the Church defines as schismatic those who refuse to submit to the Roman Pontiff or to remain in communion with the other members of the Church who are his subjects (canon 751).
Now, to refuse continually and explicitly to participate in every and any Mass in the rite celebrated by the Pope and by all the bishops of the Church while judging this rite, in itself, incompatible with the Faith, or sinful, represents a formal refusal of communion with the Pope and with the Catholic episcopate.

The objective fact cannot be denied that the rite of Paul VI is the official rite of the Latin Church, celebrated by the Pope and by all the Catholic episcopate.

If we consider the New Mass in itself, in theory or in practice, as invalid or heretical, sacrilegious, heterodox, sinful, illegitimate or not Catholic, we would have to hold the theological conclusions of this position and apply them to the Pope and the entire episcopate residing in the world - that is, the whole teaching Church: that the Church has officially promulgated, maintained for decades, and offers every day to God an illegitimate and sinful worship – a proposition condemned by the Magisterium - and that, therefore, the gates of hell have prevailed against her, which would be a heresy. Or else we would be adopting the sectarian principle that we alone are the Church, and outside of us there is no salvation, which would be another heresy. These positions cannot be accepted by a Catholic, either in theory or in practice.

…]

To be continued…

 

[Sean_O_L]

For all these reasons, we preserve the venerable rite of St. Pius V, but “cum Petro et sub Petro”, in full communion.

This is my “KISS” principle relative to the (so-called) “Novus Ordo”:

1. The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Catholic Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church. (de fide).
2. The members of the Church are those who have validly received the Sacrament of Baptism and who are not separated from the unity of the confession of the Faith, and from the unity of the lawful communion of the Church. (Sent. certa.)
3. The Holy Mass is a true and proper Sacrifice. (de fide).
4. In the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated, and its saving power is applied. (de fide).
5. In the Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Sacrifice of the Cross the Sacrificial Gift and the Primary Sancrificing Priest are identical; only the nature and mode of the offering are different. (de fide).
6. The essential Sacrificial Action consists in the Transsubstantiation alone. (Sent. communis.)
7. The Sacrifice of the Mass is not merely a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, but also a sacrifice of expiation and impetration. (de fide).

Final Comment: The current normative liturgy of Mass in the Roman Rite is that which is contained in the latest edition of the Roman Missal – whether it be in the Latin or approved vernacular translations. It is just as much “the Mass” as was the approved liturgy of Pope St Pius V, and the liturgy of Jesus Christ in the Last Supper where there were no women or children present; no Chasuble, Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, Introit; where the Mass was offered while the congregation were reclining, etc… In it’s action and effect there is no difference in time. The priest in all cases is Our Lord Jesus Christ; He offers the same Sacrifice – Himself; He offers It to the same person, His Eternal Father; He offers it for the Redemption of all men; He offers it for the Salvation for “the many”; it was and continues to be guaranteed by the Holy Spirit.

This is my “KISS” principle which has drawn me - out of the state of schism and excommunication that I was in as an adherent of the SSPX - into full communion with the Vicar of Christ. Thanks be to God.