Capuchin Franciscan Friars in Denver

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I saw this and I think that it deserves an explanation that will put this into the proper context of Catholic Traditions.
It’s wrong for Priests and religious to care about them and them alone just because of their color. The rest of us feel neglected, and we feel as if we don’t matter.
It is not that you or others don’t matter. It is part of Catholic tradition that every religious community has a charism and a mission. The charism of the Franciscan family was always to live and work among the poor. From its early days in 1209 when it was formally approved, the friars lived with lepers and farmers. They did not serve the merchants, the aristocrats, nor did they live among them.

In addition, Bl. John Paul II, in Vita Consacrata, calls the religious to make a preferential option for the poor when selecting their apostolates. In an area where there is a large sector of poor people and there is a limited number of religious, they are going to make the option for the poor.
If the Holy Father saw how these Priests treated them and how they treated us, he would be deeply disappointed and would explain to them their errors.
They are actually following the Holy Father’s orders to the entire Franciscan order, which he gave at the Chapter of Mats in April 2009. They are to make a preferential option for the poor and to align themselves with those whom society rejects and those who are not welcome: the immigrant, the unborn, the elderly, the disabled, the homeless, the hungry, the political prisoner, the sick and other vulnerable and marginalized members of society.

They are Franciscans, not diocesan priests. Diocesan priests serve everyone. That’s why they’re called diocesan. They serve all of the people of the diocese where they are. Religious are called so, from the word, regula, which means rule. They serve according to their rule. This may be a target population. For example, the Christian Brothers only serve students. The Alexians only serve the sick and so forth.
But, seeing as how the Holy Father isn’t making any plans to visit Kansas I don’t think, this won’t happen. Hopefully with our new Bishop this will all change.
This is extremely important to clarify. I think that many lay people do not know this. The Council of Trent created the Rule of Exemption. Under this rule, orders such as the Jesuits, Carmelites, Dominicans, Franciscans, Benedictines, Cistercians, Augustinians, Salesians and several others do not answer to the bishops. They answer directly to their major superiors. Their major superiors answer to the general chapter. The general chapter answers to the Holy Father.

Bishops have the authority to welcome an order into their dioceses. They can also deny the order admission into their dioceses. No priest of the any order may hear confessions outside of his religious house, without the permission of the bishop. No priest of any order may hear the confessions of the laity, even in his house, without the permission of the bishop. No order may run a parish without the permission of the bishop. The bishop is responsible for the laity.

The Rule of Exemption kicks in once the bishop gives these permissions. The bishop may not enter the house or property of exempt religious without their permission, not even their schools or colleges. He may not interfere in their internal matters, nor may he discipline religious. The bishop may never ask religious to do anything that is contrary to their statutes or to the orders of the superior. He has to go through channels. The superior can politely decline to do what the bishop requests. If the bishop says that the Capuchins should pay less attention to the Mexicans and more attention to the Polish, the superior can politely decline. The religious superior is the highest ranking authority. The religious owe the bishop respect and they must obey him as described in their constitutions.

For example, the Franciscan rule says that the friars may never contradict a bishop, question a bishop, say anything that a bishop does not allow you to say in his diocese or do anything that a bishop does not allow. However, all of these things have to be agreed upon when the community first arrives. Succeeding bishops cannot change those agreements. Bishops cannot ask religious to leave their dioceses. Only the pope can do that. He can deny them entrance, but not suppress them.

Those religious who work for the bishop must comply with his policies. That’s common sense. If the friars work in a diocesan owned ministry, they must comply with the policies of the diocese. If they work in their own ministry, they make the policies within the parameters of the agreement between them and the bishop when they first arrived. No one can change the rules of the game without consultation.

When the bishop welcomes a religious community to his diocese, he commits the laity of his diocese to support them and to cooperate with them. He has the canonical authority to do this and canon law requires that the lay faithful cooperate. They don’t have to like the religious, but they must cooperate with them out of respect and justice to their bishop. The religious must fulfill whatever promises the superior made when they arrived. Even if the bishop and the superior change, the agreements remain in place. No one can say, “I never agreed to that.” It does not matter. Until a new agreement is made, everyone, religious, bishop and laity are bound by the original agreement. In dealing with diocesan clergy, there is more flexibility, because they are part of the diocese. They can change as the bishops change.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I saw this and I think that it deserves an explanation that will put this into the proper context of Catholic Traditions.

It is not that you or others don’t matter. It is part of Catholic tradition that every religious community has a charism and a mission. The charism of the Franciscan family was always to live and work among the poor. From its early days in 1209 when it was formally approved, the friars lived with lepers and farmers. They did not serve the merchants, the aristocrats, nor did they live among them.

In addition, Bl. John Paul II, in Vita Consacrata, calls the religious to make a preferential option for the poor when selecting their apostolates. In an area where there is a large sector of poor people and there is a limited number of religious, they are going to make the option for the poor.

They are actually following the Holy Father’s orders to the entire Franciscan order, which he gave at the Chapter of Mats in April 2009. They are to make a preferential option for the poor and to align themselves with those whom society rejects and those who are not welcome: the immigrant, the unborn, the elderly, the disabled, the homeless, the hungry, the political prisoner, the sick and other vulnerable and marginalized members of society.

They are Franciscans, not diocesan priests. Diocesan priests serve everyone. That’s why they’re called diocesan. They serve all of the people of the diocese where they are. Religious are called so, from the word, regula, which means rule. They serve according to their rule. This may be a target population. For example, the Christian Brothers only serve students. The Alexians only serve the sick and so forth.

This is extremely important to clarify. I think that many lay people do not know this. The Council of Trent created the Rule of Exemption. Under this rule, orders such as the Jesuits, Carmelites, Dominicans, Franciscans, Benedictines, Cistercians, Augustinians, Salesians and several others do not answer to the bishops. They answer directly to their major superiors. Their major superiors answer to the general chapter. The general chapter answers to the Holy Father.

Bishops have the authority to welcome an order into their dioceses. They can also deny the order admission into their dioceses. No priest of the any order may hear confessions outside of his religious house, without the permission of the bishop. No priest of any order may hear the confessions of the laity, even in his house, without the permission of the bishop. No order may run a parish without the permission of the bishop. The bishop is responsible for the laity.

The Rule of Exemption kicks in once the bishop gives these permissions. The bishop may not enter the house or property of exempt religious without their permission, not even their schools or colleges. He may not interfere in their internal matters, nor may he discipline religious. The bishop may never ask religious to do anything that is contrary to their statutes or to the orders of the superior. He has to go through channels. The superior can politely decline to do what the bishop requests. If the bishop says that the Capuchins should pay less attention to the Mexicans and more attention to the Polish, the superior can politely decline. The religious superior is the highest ranking authority. The religious owe the bishop respect and they must obey him as described in their constitutions.

For example, the Franciscan rule says that the friars may never contradict a bishop, question a bishop, say anything that a bishop does not allow you to say in his diocese or do anything that a bishop does not allow. However, all of these things have to be agreed upon when the community first arrives. Succeeding bishops cannot change those agreements. Bishops cannot ask religious to leave their dioceses. Only the pope can do that. He can deny them entrance, but not suppress them.

Those religious who work for the bishop must comply with his policies. That’s common sense. If the friars work in a diocesan owned ministry, they must comply with the policies of the diocese. If they work in their own ministry, they make the policies within the parameters of the agreement between them and the bishop when they first arrived. No one can change the rules of the game without consultation.

When the bishop welcomes a religious community to his diocese, he commits the laity of his diocese to support them and to cooperate with them. He has the canonical authority to do this and canon law requires that the lay faithful cooperate. They don’t have to like the religious, but they must cooperate with them out of respect and justice to their bishop. The religious must fulfill whatever promises the superior made when they arrived. Even if the bishop and the superior change, the agreements remain in place. No one can say, “I never agreed to that.” It does not matter. Until a new agreement is made, everyone, religious, bishop and laity are bound by the original agreement. In dealing with diocesan clergy, there is more flexibility, because they are part of the diocese. They can change as the bishops change.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you for your response, but the post you responded to was not aimed at the Franciscans. It was aimed at the Priests of my diocese. I was talking about how they completely ignore us, and give all of their attention to Mexicans. I have no problem if Diocesan Priests take an interest and make it a mission for themselves to take care of the poor, but I feel it is wrong to completely ignore everybody else.
 
They are Franciscans, not diocesan priests. Diocesan priests serve everyone. That’s why they’re called diocesan. They serve all of the people of the diocese where they are.

As I explained before, I was talking about the Diocesan Priests of my diocese, not the Capuchin Franciscans, and the above quote is why it is so horrible that the Diocesan Priests in my diocese act like we don’t exist and ignore us while they proclaim the Mexicans to be Saints. They are meant to serve everyone, when they only serve you if you are Mexican. If you’re not, they act like even speaking to you will kill them. There is a few exceptions because there are a few really good Priests in our diocese (Namely Father Wesley), but most fall to social favorism, unfortunately.
 
JReducation;8347898:
They are Franciscans, not diocesan priests. Diocesan priests serve everyone. That’s why they’re called diocesan. They serve all of the people of the diocese where they are.

As I explained before, I was talking about the Diocesan Priests of my diocese, not the Capuchin Franciscans, and the above quote is why it is so horrible that the Diocesan Priests in my diocese act like we don’t exist and ignore us while they proclaim the Mexicans to be Saints. They are meant to serve everyone, when they only serve you if you are Mexican. If you’re not, they act like even speaking to you will kill them. There is a few exceptions because there are a few really good Priests in our diocese (Namely Father Wesley), but most fall to social favorism, unfortunately.
Thank you for your response, but the post you responded to was not aimed at the Franciscans. It was aimed at the Priests of my diocese. I was talking about how they completely ignore us, and give all of their attention to Mexicans. I have no problem if Diocesan Priests take an interest and make it a mission for themselves to take care of the poor, but I feel it is wrong to completely ignore everybody else.
I see what you’re saying. A diocesan priest is to serve the people to whom he is assigned, this usually means the people of his parish, unless he’s assigned to a school, hospital or other.

If the bishop assigns a diocesan priest to serve the green people, he does not have an obligation to serve anyone else. Diiocesna priests are secular men. They are not consecrated religious. They are not governed by a rule. They are governed by the bishop. It is up to the bishop to decide whom they serve or how they prioritize their resources and time.

When people feel slighted, as you do, it is a good idea to let Father know and he may be able to clarify. He may not be aware that he’s making you feel that way or he may be able to say, “I’m sorry, but I was told to take care of the green people first and I just don’t have time to take care of anyone else right now.” Or you may be pleasantly surprised when he says, “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to ignore you. I was so concerned about the green people, that I didn’t realize that you needed me.”

My point is that if Father does not know, he can’t answer.

Bl. John Paul did tell the bishops of the world to give extra attention and to allocate their resources to give preferential attention to the poor, the immigrant, the elderly and the vulnerable. He did not mean that they should give everything to this sector of society. It means that they should take care of them first and then everyone else. They should not deny anyone their attention, if they can spare it. It’s a matter of getting oneself organized. However, Bl. John Paul made it clear, in Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, that if you absolutely have to choose, because you don’t have the resources for both, you must choose the poor.

Pope Benedict has not retracted this. He has simply added to it the bishops must bring the middle class and upper class to the service of the poor so that through service and charity, the Church can be a whole body. In other words, don’t ignore everyone else. Draw them into the care for the poor. The poor have much to teach the middle and upper class and the middle and upper class has much to share with the poor. Bishops and laity can cultivate mutually beneficial relationships. To do so, we have to put aside the political and ethnic issues.

I thought that you were talking about the friars, because you said, “priest and religious” and diocesan priests are not religious. Plus the title of the thread is about the Capuchins in Denver.

Denver, San Juan and Boston are great American examples. The three bishops are Franciscans. As Franciscans, their first duty is to their rule. They have brought their dioceses together around ministries to the poor. They have not left the middle class and upper class out of the picture. Everyone benefits. The poor benefit from the service and the others benefit from serving.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
As I explained before, I was talking about the Diocesan Priests of my diocese, not the Capuchin Franciscans, and the above quote is why it is so horrible that the Diocesan Priests in my diocese act like we don’t exist and ignore us while they proclaim the Mexicans to be Saints. They are meant to serve everyone, when they only serve you if you are Mexican. If you’re not, they act like even speaking to you will kill them. There is a few exceptions because there are a few really good Priests in our diocese (Namely Father Wesley), but most fall to social favorism, unfortunately.
While you state that there are “exceptions” you still tar all priests of your diocese (except for the one you chose to name) in a bad way.

You give no insight as to what “ignore us” or what “proclaims Mexicans to be Saints” is.

One could read this and detect a racist note. I am not saying that it is racist, just that it can come off to some as being such.

Secular priests are there to serve the community that they are placed in. They are to serve their parish. Now if the parish is highly ethnic then I would expect them to serve that ethnicity a bit more than the others there.

I am just trying to point this out charitably especially if you are going to be discerning a vocation to religious life and/or the priesthood.
 
While you state that there are “exceptions” you still tar all priests of your diocese (except for the one you chose to name) in a bad way.

You give no insight as to what “ignore us” or what “proclaims Mexicans to be Saints” is.

One could read this and detect a racist note. I am not saying that it is racist, just that it can come off to some as being such.

Secular priests are there to serve the community that they are placed in. They are to serve their parish. Now if the parish is highly ethnic then I would expect them to serve that ethnicity a bit more than the others there.

I am just trying to point this out charitably especially if you are going to be discerning a vocation to religious life and/or the priesthood.
Brother, if I may use your post, since this is the Trad Forum, I’d like to use the opportunity to align this with Catholic Tradition.

Brother has made a point, that I belive I also made. Diocesan clergy (deacons and priests) are at the service of a local Church. This dates back to the time of the Apostles. We see this with Paul. His presbyters and deacons traveled with him or were assigned to the Chruches that he founded. Unlike religious (brothers, priests, sisters, or nuns), these men are incardinated into the local Church. This means that they are attached to the local bishop. They derive their mission from the bishop.

If the bishop has a diocese that has a large population of immigrants and he sees that the needs of these immirgrants outweigh the needs of the nationals, canonically, he can redirect his resources in that direction. This includes his manpower as well as finances.

In justice, he can’t deny the rest of his diocese. But it goes back to the master who promised to pay the workers $100 dollars for a days work. He paid some $150 and other the $100 that he promised. OK, OK, Jesus did not use dollars. But you get the idea. As long as the bishop gives the nationals what they are entitled to receive, he can give more to the immigrant.

In addition, it has alwasy been part of the tradition of the Church, that bishops pay special attention to the poor and those who are strangers.

Prior to the existence of parishes, the only church in many places was the monastery church. These were run by Benedictine monks. The Benedictines have a 1500 year tradition of hospitality to travelers. The parish as we know it today, emerges out of these monastic Churches. The tradition of extending hospitality to travelers, is not new. It goes back to the monks. It has a place in tradition.

Again, we must state that the rights granted under Canon Law must be protected. Anything extra is just that, extra. The bishop and clergy can give the extra to whomever they feel needs it the most.

It is also part of tradition that diocesan clergy are secular men. Since they don’t have a rule of life, as long as they do not violate the canonical rights of the faithful to whom they are assigned, they can have their special interests like any other secular Catholic, unlike religious who must focus on the target ministry of his community.

The question is not whether Father likes the green people better than the red people. The question is whether everyone is getting what Canon Law says they have a right to receive from their priest.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
While you state that there are “exceptions” you still tar all priests of your diocese (except for the one you chose to name) in a bad way.

You give no insight as to what “ignore us” or what “proclaims Mexicans to be Saints” is.

One could read this and detect a racist note. I am not saying that it is racist, just that it can come off to some as being such.

Secular priests are there to serve the community that they are placed in. They are to serve their parish. Now if the parish is highly ethnic then I would expect them to serve that ethnicity a bit more than the others there.

I am just trying to point this out charitably especially if you are going to be discerning a vocation to religious life and/or the priesthood.
“Ignore us” refers to instances like when you’re pleasantly talking to a Priest and suddenly a Mexican comes in so he leaves you in mid-conversation to talk to him instead.

Yes, I do realize I have been a bit critical of many of the Priests in my diocese, but that is because very time I write about this, I get angry and sometimes over-dramatize the instances because my mother always speaks badly about it all. So that is just an explanation on why I may seem a little “heated” when I talk about this. My mother usually has almost nothing good to say about Mexicans, unfortunately, and sometimes if I’m not careful I’ll start to think the same things about them. I realize there is nothing wrong with trying to help them, but my mother’s remarks have run-deep within me, and I’m just recently changing my mind about the entire situation.

However, as you stated, and as I stated before, I am not racist. Not anymore, anyway.
 
“Ignore us” refers to instances like when you’re pleasantly talking to a Priest and suddenly a Mexican comes in so he leaves you in mid-conversation to talk to him instead.

Yes, I do realize I have been a bit critical of many of the Priests in my diocese, but that is because very time I write about this, I get angry and sometimes over-dramatize the instances because my mother always speaks badly about it all. So that is just an explanation on why I may seem a little “heated” when I talk about this. My mother usually has almost nothing good to say about Mexicans, unfortunately, and sometimes if I’m not careful I’ll start to think the same things about them. I realize there is nothing wrong with trying to help them, but my mother’s remarks have run-deep within me, and I’m just recently changing my mind about the entire situation.

However, as you stated, and as I stated before, I am not racist. Not anymore, anyway.
If someone walks off on me, without as much as an “Excuse me a minute,” that is not a reflection on the other person, be he green or grey. It’s just bad manners. We have to put things in their proper context. I can’t blame the Mexican because the priest was rude. If this is habitual, it may be a good idea to talk to Father about your feelings, PRIVATELY not on the Internet.

As to your mother and other people who may be racist, I believe that they have to understand what they’re doing.

You see, God created man in his image and likeness. The racist person assumes to be God. “Those who are not in my image and likeness are not welcome.” They have to be challenge with this truth.

This kind of thinking is not part of our Catholic tradition. Our tradition has always recognized that all men are created in God’s image, not our own. Somehow, someway, every human being is a reflection of who God is.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
If someone walks off on me, without as much as an “Excuse me a minute,” that is not a reflection on the other person, be he green or grey. It’s just bad manners. We have to put things in their proper context. I can’t blame the Mexican because the priest was rude. If this is habitual, it may be a good idea to talk to Father about your feelings, PRIVATELY not on the Internet.

As to your mother and other people who may be racist, I believe that they have to understand what they’re doing.

You see, God created man in his image and likeness. The racist person assumes to be God. “Those who are not in my image and likeness are not welcome.” They have to be challenge with this truth.

This kind of thinking is not part of our Catholic tradition. Our tradition has always recognized that all men are created in God’s image, not our own. Somehow, someway, every human being is a reflection of who God is.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I realize this. And I apologize for anything I said that could have come off as racist.

As a bit of irony, I was looking around on Catholic Answers and I saw a thread that said “Entering the Capuchins on September 8th–prayers requested”. Out of curiosity, I looked at the message, and this person was entering the Capuchin community of Saint Conrad in Denver. Ironic, aye?
 
Seeing as how I don’t think the previous messages weren’t enough, I would like to apologize again to all Mexicans I may have offended. What I said came out of resentment and it was un-Christian of me to say those things. I especially apologize to the Priests in my diocese and the Capuchin Friars in Denver for being so daft. I realize I’m not half the man any of those people are. I’m truly not worthy of any Religious community if those sorts of comments come out of me sub-consciously.
 
Seeing as how I don’t think the previous messages weren’t enough, I would like to apologize again to all Mexicans I may have offended. What I said came out of resentment and it was un-Christian of me to say those things. I especially apologize to the Priests in my diocese and the Capuchin Friars in Denver for being so daft. I realize I’m not half the man any of those people are.** I’m truly not worthy of any Religious community if those sorts of comments come out of me sub-consciously**.
We don’t enter the consecrated life because we are worthy. We enter because we hear Jesus say, “Come. Follow me.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
We don’t enter the consecrated life because we are worthy. We enter because we hear Jesus say, “Come. Follow me.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I realize that. And looking at it now, I never wear shoes, I wear my shirt, pants, and underwear for more than weeks at a time, and my deodorant seems to elope with the socks in the dryer daily. Yep, I’m Franciscan worthy! 😛
 
I’m bumping this thread. Sorry, still not sure what CAF’s rules are in regards to this - I hope no one is annoyed with me! 🤷

Dear OP,

These friars are ones that I’ve begun discerning with. I was born and raised on the border between Colorado and New Mexico. You say you’re from Kansas, and though Kansas probably has its fair share of immigrants, you should experience it here. We’re brought up knowing Spanish and English, not because it’s taught at school, but because it’s the first language of all of our friends.

I don’t agree with how immigration is handled by the USA or Mexico. There needs to be some serious revision to improve this system.

It’s easy to forget that those people who sneak under fences and across rivers are people. Should they have come here illegally? No. But realize that most of them aren’t just coming to our country to work. Many of them were fleeing gang violence, drug cartels and the like.

In my town, we have an apostolate of the Franciscan sisters - El Centro de los Pobres (The Center of the Poor). Here I’ve been able to help feed these people, collect for them blankets and gently used clothes, help them pay bills, things like that.

Once you’ve seen a mother come into the shelter newly arrived from Mexico and her baby given an expiration date because of something contracted on the way here, you’ll begin to see these people differently.

They’re not trying to impose their language or culture on anyone, and they don’t mean to take advantage of federal aid (though, as someone who grew up on government assistance, I can tell you that it’s a heck of a lot better than starving!) They just want to be able to live. That’s it. The friars and sisters help them do this.

-LatinByzCath
 
Monastic would imply they are Monks, or at least live the life of a Monk, which is the exact opposite of what they do. Friars go out into the world, preaching the word of God wherever they go. Monks stay cloistered from the world. There is a reason Saint Francis changed the name from Monk to Friar.
Capuchins are the strictest Franciscan Congregation to exist, period, full stop.

Perhaps they are focusing on the Latinos because it seems to me that the Latinos are the most faithful to the church?

I live in Texas, and many germans, poles, and irish when seeing all the Latino faces at Mass, and hearing their first Mariachi Mass go screaming to the Baptist church. All to avoid being associated with Latinos.
 
This thread is old and it has become a needless debate about the Capuchin Franciscan Friars. It is disrespectful to any religious community to put it on trial on the internet. Please do not engage in this kind of behavior folks.

Thank you.

Thomas Casey
 
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