Card Shonborn says stable homosexual relationship better than unstable hetero ones

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foolishmortal said:
tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/should-the-church-change-her-position-on-homosexuality-and-divorce.html

Cardinal has gone bye-bye, Egon…What’ve you got left?
On a higher note: tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/church-must-protest-against-laws-favoring-homosexuality-cardinal-says.html said by a Latvian cardinal. Why does the Pope let left-field clergy like Shonborn misrepresent us?
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NOT. Not gone…taken out of context. He is not a left-field…he is Catholic…and a good Cardinal.

The press is not the best at covering Religion.

insightscoop.typepad.com/2004/2010/05/fr-joseph-fessio-no-good-deed-goes-unpunished.html
 
I read the clarification article and his comment about a stable homosexual relationship being better than promiscuous hetero ones still stands. He is not calling for a change in Church teaching, but his level of gradation is incorrect. Both actions are immoral and sinful. He is arguing that stable homosexual relationships are slightly less grave than promiscuous straight relationships.

I would argue just the opposite. One is unnatural and sinful and the other is sinful. To be fair, both are “unnatural” in the eyes of God, but the Bible is clear about which action rises to the level of an abomination. I wonder if the same gradation would be used for brother-sister stable relationships.

I would also argue that any religious leader should have the wherewithal to realize that the immoral forces in this world are waiting to pounce to move their own agenda forward. A clear moral voice denouncing sin is what is needed now more than ever.
 
foolishmortal said:
tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/should-the-church-change-her-position-on-homosexuality-and-divorce.html

Cardinal has gone bye-bye, Egon…What’ve you got left?
On a higher note: tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/church-must-protest-against-laws-favoring-homosexuality-cardinal-says.html said by a Latvian cardinal. Why does the Pope let left-field clergy like Shonborn misrepresent us?
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While I disagree with what Cardinal Schönborn is said to have said (and agree with the previously commenter that it’s perhaps best to take this with a huge grain of salt), your title is completely inaccurate under any scenario, unless there’s something I haven’t heard.

Schönborn said stable homosexual partnerships were better than promiscuous ones. Not that stable homosexual partnerships were better than promiscuous heterosexual relationships. I haven’t read that in any of the coverage. Where are you getting that?
 
This article seems to magnify, stretch, and probably take out of context, a few sentences Cardinal Schonborn (correct spelling) said.

I’ve read some of his work in the past as assigned reading for some of my theology classes at my college (a Catholic college that prides itself in orthodoxy). His work doesn’t seem like the work of the type of cardinal this article is making him out to be, a “liberal” one.

BTW, I’d like to add that although he is well intentioned, the Cardinal Pujats made some erroneous comments in the second article you cited. Examples:

“Finally, we must assert that homosexuality is an acquired vice that can be likened to addiction to drugs, alcoholism, tobacco smoking, etc.”

Sodomy is a sin, but same-sex attraction isn’t exactly acquired.

“Homosexuality is not a sexual orientation; it is a sexual perversion.”

The CC teaches that homosexual acts are sinful, but doesn’t teach that experiencing same-sex attraction is a sin.
 
Never underestimate the ability of the media to twist a statement to comply with its own agenda.

Regards,
Ponyguy
 
Ponyguy said:
Never underestimate the ability of the media to twist a statement to comply with its own agenda.

Regards,
Ponyguy
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Amen!
This story originally appeared in The Tablet, the UK’s equivalent of the Nat’l Catholic Reporter – known to orthodox British Catholics as the Bitter Pill. I don’t know if this story was trying to co-opt Card. Schonborn or settling scores with him for not editing the Catechism to their taste.
 
Oh…my bad.

“Finally, we must assert that homosexuality is an acquired vice that can be likened to addiction to drugs, alcoholism, tobacco smoking, etc.”

, but same-sex attraction isn’t exactly acquired.

Homosexuality and same sex attraction are the same thing. Either it’s acquired or not. I tend to believe it’s acquired.
 
Nec5 said:
I read the clarification article and his comment about a stable homosexual relationship being better than promiscuous hetero ones still stands. He is not calling for a change in Church teaching, but his level of gradation is incorrect. Both actions are immoral and sinful. He is arguing that stable homosexual relationships are slightly less grave than promiscuous straight relationships.

I would argue just the opposite. One is unnatural and sinful and the other is sinful. To be fair, both are “unnatural” in the eyes of God, but the Bible is clear about which action rises to the level of an abomination. I wonder if the same gradation would be used for brother-sister stable relationships.

I would also argue that any religious leader should have the wherewithal to realize that the immoral forces in this world are waiting to pounce to move their own agenda forward. A clear moral voice denouncing sin is what is needed now more than ever.
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If you want that, then you’d better look to the Evangelicals, because as a bloc, Catholics seem more like communists than Christians.

To clarify, I cling to Holy Mother Church, but individual Catholics have become a disgrace.
 
foolishmortal;6659077 said:
LOL

Ghostbusters. Bill Murray. Classic.
foolishmortal said:
Oh…my bad.

“Finally, we must assert that homosexuality is an acquired vice that can be likened to addiction to drugs, alcoholism, tobacco smoking, etc.”

, but same-sex attraction isn’t exactly acquired.
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Homosexuality and same sex attraction are the same thing. Either it’s acquired or not. I tend to believe it’s acquired.

I think there is evidence that in some cases it is acquired and in some cases it is not.
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Most of the time, the Catholic teaching on homosexuality comes packaged with the obligatory (albeit hollow sounding) remarks on how “homosexuals” should be treated with respect and compassion. It’s interesting to note that the interview with Cardinal Pujats does not contain any of the following words: “respect,” “compassion,” “charity,” “mercy,” “justice.” Perhaps I have a bad attitude, but I would take this as prima facie evidence that the Cardinal is abusing Catholic teaching in order to justify his hatred of gay men and lesbian women. It’s as if he said, “I hate gays, so it must be their fault. . . and if it’s their fault, then homosexuality is an acquired vice, and so gays don’t deserve any compassion, respect, charity, justice, or mercy. QED.”
 
Again…we do not know what he said… but we do know it is a good Cardinal who holds what the Church teaches!

As for stable homosexual relationship being better than a promiscuous ones …well yes of course that is true. Even if this was said.

Just like a single murder is *better *than a serial killer’s multiple murders…

(a lesser evil…but still wrong)

(and yes of course I am not comparing really murder with homosexual relationships per se)

One grave sin is better than 10. But none are good.

And yes one could say that the ‘intention to be faithful’ in what the person thinks is real love (though objectively the Cardinal and we know it is not ordered love) …is better than the going out and have serial homosexual encounters …but saying this is not approving such…but recognizing some good will perhaps even if objectively disordered.

But again both the Cardinal and we know that sin is a sin…he is not saying any homosexual relationship is good objectively. They are not. And he would agree.
 
I don’t see any controversy in the Cardinal’s remarks. On the one hand he is supporting the objective nature of the moral law while recognizing that man’s ability to conform to it will always be imperfect, and that the goal is still an objective truth.

Therefore the person who is working assiduously at moving toward that truth merits God’s grace and mercy by the free gift of His only Son on the cross, who died for our sins (and thus our inability to be perfect).

Man’s adherence will always be imperfect. The pastoral duty of the Church is to turn man towards the truth, and set him on a march for it. Some will progress slowly, some more quickly. The role of the Sacrament of Reconciliation is key here.

This is in line with what my own orthodox confessor says: sanctity is in the effort, not a perfect result which is usually unattainable for certain strong temptations towards which one is drawn. Weak temptations or for things that don’t tempt us, it is easy. Therefore we who are strong in the face of a certain temptation, should refrain from condemning he or she who is weak when faced with the same temptation, because invariably, we ourselves are weak in some other area.
 
People started commenting on the gay part (I believe stats say most gay “marriages” end in a “divorce,” despite this minority report of a handful of longer relationships they try to make universal, but many such relationships involve sodomy, which is a sin that cries to Heaven for vengeance, not to mention the gay act is a serious sin and most same sex attracted people know this), but Shonborn also says it should be OK to remarry after a divorce. Doesn’t the Bible cover that as a big “No No?”
 
foolishmortal said:
Homosexuality and same sex attraction are the same thing. Either it’s acquired or not. I tend to believe it’s acquired.
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IMHO, SSA is (often) acquired in the sense that it is something developed with the influence of environmental factors, as opposed to something one is born with (although it wouldn’t contradict CC teaching if people were “born that way”). However, it’s almost never acquired in the sense that it is simply a choice (which seemed to be implied by the cardinal’s words).
chrysostim83 said:
Most of the time, the Catholic teaching on homosexuality comes packaged with the obligatory (albeit hollow sounding) remarks on how “homosexuals” should be treated with respect and compassion. It’s interesting to note that the interview with Cardinal Pujats does not contain any of the following words: “respect,” “compassion,” “charity,” “mercy,” “justice.” Perhaps I have a bad attitude, but I would take this as prima facie evidence that the Cardinal is abusing Catholic teaching in order to justify his hatred of gay men and lesbian women. It’s as if he said, “I hate gays, so it must be their fault. . . and if it’s their fault, then homosexuality is an acquired vice, and so gays don’t deserve any compassion, respect, charity, justice, or mercy. QED.”
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That’s kind of what I was thinking (and feeling).

A lot of times Catholics and other Christians seem to use CC teaching, as well as scripture, to justify hatred, or at least a strong disgust of, homosexual persons.

In the cardinal’s case, his view of homosexual persons are probably strongly influenced by politics (which tends to bring out the worst in people).

A good video about ministering to homosexual persons:

youtube.com/watch?v=HFKWH4d4jsw
 
I’m pretty sure it said he was advocating divorce and remarriage and I thought a quote made that clear.

"reconsider its view of re-married divorcees ‘as many people don’t even marry at all any longer’. The primary thing to consider should not be the sin, but people’s striving to live according to the commandments, he said. Instead of a morality based on duty, we should work towards a morality based on happiness, he continued.”7
How else do you reconsider it? A morality based on happiness (as it’s misunderstood today) sounds like do what feels good.–at the time

Homosexuals may not choose to be attracted to those of the same sex, but they can choose to embrace it, as anyone can embrace a disordered mindset that is about a sin, like cannibalism, pedophilia, necrophilia, etc…
 
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