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Cardinal Bagnasco says Europe marginalizes Christians out of fear
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Padres1969
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I don’t know if I’d call today’s Christians martyrs… but it is definitely harder to be a Christian, or any religious for that matter, these days. I mean in Europe I can imagine it’s exponentially harder given how secularized Europe has become. But even in the US, where religion is still something that the vast majority claim to have, be it Christian or otherwise it has become more difficult.
I think it starts with religion just not being talked about. I mean I’ve been quietly moderately religious my whole life. 20 years ago, if religion, or Christianity specifically, came up in casual conversation it was not considered an unusual thing to be talking about and was not an uncomfortable subject. Everyone had a religion and talked about it if need be. But I’ve found in more recent years that its even more rare that religion comes up. And if it does come up, even those that claim to have a religion aren’t keen to talk about it. And of course an increasing number of people are downright hostile to religion, to say nothing of those who simply don’t have a religion, so they don’t want to talk about it. Or if they do it’s often in dismissive or even derisive terms.
To be religious, even moderately so, now requires you to basically hide it in daily life. No one seems to want to hear that you went to church on Sunday, that you believe in something, etc…, etc…
I think it starts with religion just not being talked about. I mean I’ve been quietly moderately religious my whole life. 20 years ago, if religion, or Christianity specifically, came up in casual conversation it was not considered an unusual thing to be talking about and was not an uncomfortable subject. Everyone had a religion and talked about it if need be. But I’ve found in more recent years that its even more rare that religion comes up. And if it does come up, even those that claim to have a religion aren’t keen to talk about it. And of course an increasing number of people are downright hostile to religion, to say nothing of those who simply don’t have a religion, so they don’t want to talk about it. Or if they do it’s often in dismissive or even derisive terms.
To be religious, even moderately so, now requires you to basically hide it in daily life. No one seems to want to hear that you went to church on Sunday, that you believe in something, etc…, etc…
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Cheiron
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In many European countries Christians are still in charge of schools and hospitals that receive state funding. Losing those schools and hospitals is really the loss of privilege, not marginalization. It certainly isn’t martyrdom. Thanks to religious freedom Christianity now has to compete in an increasingly dynamic marketplace of ideas and it’s losing market share rapidly. Why does the cardinal not organize an ad campaign instead of complaining?
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gus
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Are they truly Christain if they serve at the will of the state.
I’m afraid we compromised our faith by taking a dime from the State
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MacBP
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That’s very astute. I firmly believe that’s due to a lack of contact. While its true that a strong majority of Americans (and to a lesser extent, Canadians) identify as Christian I think the amount of people who are publicly religious is astonishingly small. As a young, educated Canadian I barely know anyone who is actively religious outside of people that I have met in Church. Consequently, I think religious expression is entirely outside of the scope of experience of a “normal” person’s experience. The result is that something like public prayer (e.g., grace before meals) or public expressions of religion are just “weird”. Discomfort ensues.
It doesn’t help that our media tends to avoid portraying religion at all. The only time religious people make it to the media tend to be as a source of comedy (e.g, look at the ignorant Christian) or social commentary (e.g., look at the bigoted Christian). Rarely would you see a prominent character who is portrayed as good while also being portrayed as being active in their faith. Even notable exceptions (e.g., Daredevil) tend to downplay their religiousness. When was the last time you saw a television character avoid premarital sex?
So the result is that people tend to have no contact with religion in their every-day life, and little contact in the media (with the vast majority of that contact being negative). Is is any wonder religiousness begins to be perceived as deviancy?
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Cheiron
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I’ve had 14 years of religious education (to no avail) and that was basically every morning about half an hour of bible class. I can’t remember if any particular political interests were promoted. There was an overemphasis on peace, forgiveness and love to the point were I wondered if there was any justice served by God as well.
But my school was some sort of liberal protestant, not catholic.
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Mattapoisett64
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Sadly too true. Just today saw a story about a high school football coach who lost his job because he prayed ALONE - NOT with students - before and after a game. Seems that he went down on one knee on the field. Can’t have praying on public property, can we? Now in the courts. “Freedom of religion” has gradually in the last 8 years been redefined as “freedom of worship” – the difference being that inside of 4 private walls you can do what you want, but just not in “public” – and the definition of what’s considered “public” and therefore unacceptable grows and grows.
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MacBP
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I don’t think it’s that simple. Yes, there is a lot of resentment about the decline of “Christian” civilization that accounts for part of the marginalization narrative. I’ve come to believe that there is more to it than that. When nearly everyone within a given group starts voicing concerns about being marginalized there’s something more to the story.
Speaking as an orthodox Christian there is a perception that society is increasingly hostile towards religious belief, even if we don’t seek to impose it on our non-Christian neighbors. It isn’t just that society doesn’t endorse “Judeo-Christian” values, but that society is actively seeking their destruction. That’s why something like Trinity-Western Law School in Canada can’t be allowed to exist: although it’s a private law school with historically excellent academic result, Canadian society attempts to deny it’s existence because it encourages values which find themselves at odds with Canada’s quasi-religious form of secularism. To reiterate: Christians don’t feel (exclusively) marginalized due to a loss of privilege but due to the perception that Christians are being actively excluded from the public square, This isn’t about Christianity losing in a free marketplace of ideas, but the realization that the market isn’t free and actively conspires against Christian thought. Is perception accurate? I think it’s somewhere in between both extremes.
Of course most liberal progressives are completely unwilling to acknowledge that orthodox Christians may be experiencing marginalization or even subtle forms of oppression in contemporary society. They really don’t have a choice because they confer victim status with power and protection. Liberal progressives would be in a sticky spot indeed if they were to acknowledge they they were acting as oppressors. So I think we often see the “loss of privilege” narrative as a way to explain all orthodox Christian fears since it would be politically or socially disastrous if Christians “oppression” was acknowledged to be real. What’s particularly galling to many Christians is the fact that if any other group nearly unified voicing concerns about oppression, progressives would feel obliged to acknowledge that as a matter of social justice.
I think a good touchstone of comparison would be gay people. Now, I want to preface this by saying that I do know the experience of being gay and being Christian vary widely by geography and in some places outing one’s self as being gay can be extraordinarily hazardous to one’s mental and physical health. Nevertheless, in most cases where I have lived, being gay tends to be overwhelmingly celebrated and anything resembling homophobia (or even a lack of affirmation) is swiftly condemned. Conversely, many Christians tend to closet themselves, we tend to experience derogatory comments surrounding Christianity and Christians all the time, our job prospects are lowered as a result of identifying as Christian, and we are often automatically assumed to be “bad people” if one is actively religious. I know I would personally be much more comfortable coming out as gay than as Christian in most locations I have lived and worked. Yet even in this locations being gay denotes victim status (which I don’t think is entirely unwarranted).
TL;DR: If we except that sexual and racialized minorities experience marginalization in a contemporary society that frequently goes out of the way to celebrate them, I think it would be hard to argue that Christians don’t experience at least some degree of marginalization.
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Padres1969
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Jane the Virgin?
Seriously though, the exception I list aside your analysis seems sound based on my own experience. I mean even among the few more religious I know there is a hesitancy I’ve noticed, to really talking about religion. And that’s even when they’re in a situation where everyone around them is equally as religious. It’s almost as if a bunker mentality has set in among far too many religious people, even those who are not overtly religious (and I include myself among that group who are neither overtly religious and who are bunkering). And you’re right, it’s almost as if religion is coming to be seen as a form of deviancy.
But the sheer volume of those who seem to see it as such makes me really question how religious the US and indeed the rest of the west, really is anymore. If mean in polls and such people claim to be religious, just as candidates for office always claim they go to church because it’s societally expected to some extent. But what if the reality is, most of those people are lying. Given how little religion is talked about, how down church attendances are when actual numbers are counted vs self identification, etc…, it makes me really wonder if the US is as secularized as Europe, we’re just in denial about it.
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MacBP
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Yes, and I think that’s one of the tendencies that Pope Francis tends to preach against. It really is to everyone’s benefit that Christians feel welcome to be open and honest with their faith and live accordingly. When we bunker we not only do a disservice to our self, and our faith, but to the community at large. Authentic Christianity has a big contribution to make, especially in a system as hyper polarized and divided as we see now. Jesus command to love one’s enemies (even, presumably, one’s political enemies) would make a hugely positive impact on American politics. But for that impact to be made, I think Christians need to be fearless in being who they are. Easier said than done. As someone who has always struggled with courage its a problem for me more than most.
I think you’re probably right. The rise of the “nones” isn’t a rise at all, it’s just a more appropriate label for those who formally identified themselves as Christian. Eventually we’ll reach an equilibrium where the actual make-up of society won’t have changed but the labels will be more accurate.
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Padres1969
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I mean you’re not wrong in theory. But it’s a lot harder to be open and honest about your faith when the response is quickly becomeing at best, “why?” and quite often, “what’s wrong with you?” or “you actually believe in that nonsense?”
It will be interesting, if nothing else, to see how far it swings once Americans who aren’t religious finally accept that they don’t have to claim to be so anymore if they’re not and still be considered “normal”. I mean we’ve already begun to see it with for example the presidential campaign. I can’t recall an election where the faith of the two major candidates mattered less. I mean Clinton is a Methodist who never speaks of it. And Trump claims to be a Methodist, but he speaks about his faith not at all other than to say he’d never ask God for forgiveness. Such positions would have been unthinkable for major political candidates even 12 years ago.
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Paganus
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You shouldn’t hide anything, but you don’t have to give speeches. Just don’t forget to pray grace before lunch. You wouldn’t want to eat unblessed food, would you?
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Padres1969
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Actually I typically eat unblessed food. Grace in my family has always been reserved for holidays and larger occasions
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anon67074017
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Parts of the Soviet ideology are spreading throughout Europe. This ideology seeks to create a New World Order that does not involve God. It is based on the teachings of Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Vladimir Lenin. The West thought it was mostly extinguished when the Soviet Union fell in 1991. It secretly came back though. It will be defeated again someday. Post-communist Russia may be the nation that saves Europe from Marxism. Russia realized her error and returned to Christian conservatism. Russia can help spread its new ideology throughout Europe since the old KGB spread Cultural Marxism in Europe.
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Roger_Buck
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I wonder what European countries you are familiar with, Cheiron. Certainly, living in Ireland now and having lived in France, Britain, Germany etc I can testify to powerful attempts to thwart and block Catholic teaching at every turn.
These come through governments and their media organs which have far, far more revenue to “advertise” their extremely hostile views.
Bagnasco speaks from experience …
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Roger_Buck
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PS to last …
Bagnasco is certainly not complaining. He appears wide-awake to a terrible reality.
Something I find interesting here is that he was widely-touted at the last conclave as a possible successor to the Pope. (In the top 5 on some people’s lists, if memory serves.)
I wonder if he is still a possible successor to Pope Francis. Definitely a man I would like to know more about …
Bagnasco is certainly not complaining. He appears wide-awake to a terrible reality.
Something I find interesting here is that he was widely-touted at the last conclave as a possible successor to the Pope. (In the top 5 on some people’s lists, if memory serves.)
I wonder if he is still a possible successor to Pope Francis. Definitely a man I would like to know more about …
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BCole
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When you let the state assume the functions of the church, this is the result.
This is especially true when you let the state replace church charity with government entitlements.
It’s time to recognize that government competes with religion and seeks to replace religion and become the sole authority.
This is especially true when you let the state replace church charity with government entitlements.
It’s time to recognize that government competes with religion and seeks to replace religion and become the sole authority.
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