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estesbob
Guest
81% of hose abused were male. 77% of those abused were between 11 and 17. Looks overwhelming to me.
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Cardinal Bertone: Homosexuality is the problem, not celibacy [CWN]
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pollylodges
Guest
Why don’t you look one of those males up and try to convince them that it wasn’t pedophilia?81% of hose abused were male. 77% of those abused were between 11 and 17. Looks overwhelming to me.
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tr1strev
Guest
No I don’t think I am. It seems to me that you are trying to convince yourself. I know what the main problem is, as it seems, do most of the others around here. Obviously, some people will never see be able to face the truth.No-you’re just towing the Catholic league’s line.
The ages in the study from what I’ve seen so far involving boys are between 11 and 17.
Maybe everyone here in this messageboard thinks so, but, I can assure you it’s not.
You are making your judgements based on your pre concieved notions.
- And the study does not make any judgement on that. It does not say, at least from the 4 pages I’ve read through so far concerning the abuse AND the behavioral problems concerning priests that it is homosexuality. The study, from what I’ve seen so far only made a distinction between ttypes of sexual abuse and you yourselves just filled in the blanks.
As for “the VAST majority of sexual abuse in the church is homosexual in nature”:
Table 3.4.7 CLASSIFICATION OF FITNESS AND/OR
BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS
Classification of Problem Count % of all
responses
Sexual Relationship
Problems
Coercive Sex with Males 18 .8%
Coercive Sex with Females 10 .4%
That’s not overwhelming -You are just jumping to conclusions.
You have to totally ignore the law and mentally obfuscate basic Christian societal standards to come to the conclusions that people here are coming to.
I’m tired of arguing this. It’s just going to have to get worse before it gets better.
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estesbob
Guest
What would that prove? I have , as the Cardinal did, presented the facts. If you dont acknowledge what the problem is you cant fix it.Why don’t you look one of those males up and try to convince them that it wasn’t pedophilia?
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pollylodges
Guest
We shall see. We shall see.
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estesbob
Guest
Agreed I am always amazed at how defensive people get when the homosexual nature of the abuse problem is pointed out.No I don’t think I am. It seems to me that you are trying to convince yourself. I know what the main problem is, as it seems, do most of the others around here. Obviously, some people will never see be able to face the truth.
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estesbob
Guest
We have seen. Some accept it-some dont. Fortunately the Vatican recognizes the problem with homosexuality in the Priesthood and has taken steps to correct it.We shall see. We shall see.
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irishpatrick
Guest
It matters not one bit if they agree or not.Why don’t you look one of those males up and try to convince them that it wasn’t pedophilia?
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Ecoclimber
Guest
This has become a public relations nightmare for the Vatican. When you have some many voices from the ecclesiastical hierarchy with various opinions, speaking out, it just add more fuel to the fire that is already raging. IMO, the Vatican needs to get there house in order by centralizing this issue through one office and if you need more staff, then get it. They really need to hire a media consultant to advise them as they are really out of touch with social media context of the Internet.
By allowing this to play out since the sexual abuse broke out in November in Ireland over the Murphy, the Vatican slow and inept response has cause calls for the Pope Benedict’s arrest and now security is going to be a big concern.
[Security increased for Pope’s Malta visit](Security increased for Pope’s Malta visit)
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7578439/Security-increased-for-Popes-Malta-visit.html
Security around the Pope is to be stepped up for his visit to Malta after sex abuse victims on the island said they planned to protest at his failure to tackle the scandal rocking the Catholic Church.
The decision came after vandals defaced posters promoting the Pontiff’s trip this weekend by adding an Adolf Hitler style moustache to his photograph and the word “paedophile”.
By allowing this to play out since the sexual abuse broke out in November in Ireland over the Murphy, the Vatican slow and inept response has cause calls for the Pope Benedict’s arrest and now security is going to be a big concern.
[Security increased for Pope’s Malta visit](Security increased for Pope’s Malta visit)
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7578439/Security-increased-for-Popes-Malta-visit.html
Security around the Pope is to be stepped up for his visit to Malta after sex abuse victims on the island said they planned to protest at his failure to tackle the scandal rocking the Catholic Church.
The decision came after vandals defaced posters promoting the Pontiff’s trip this weekend by adding an Adolf Hitler style moustache to his photograph and the word “paedophile”.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
i like the quote in Chronicles.This has become a public relations nightmare for the Vatican. When you have some many voices from the ecclesiastical hierarchy with various opinions, speaking out, it just add more fuel to the fire that is already raging. IMO, the Vatican needs to get there house in order by centralizing this issue through one office and if you need more staff, then get it. They really need to hire a media consultant to advise them as they are really out of touch with social media context of the Internet.
By allowing this to play out since the sexual abuse broke out in November in Ireland over the Murphy, the Vatican slow and inept response has cause calls for the Pope Benedict’s arrest and now security is going to be a big concern.
[Security increased for Pope’s Malta visit](Security increased for Pope’s Malta visit)
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7578439/Security-increased-for-Popes-Malta-visit.html
Security around the Pope is to be stepped up for his visit to Malta after sex abuse victims on the island said they planned to protest at his failure to tackle the scandal rocking the Catholic Church.
The decision came after vandals defaced posters promoting the Pontiff’s trip this weekend by adding an Adolf Hitler style moustache to his photograph and the word “paedophile”.
that is exactly what we need to do instead of ongoing rambling of who said what.
we need to stay silent, recognize our sins and work to clean the Church from the lack of leadership. leadership that is what we need.
do you want hear something ridiculous?
youtube.com/watch?v=dv82aOqeVvw&feature=related
this is happening because of lack of leadership. this woman goes around speaking for the Catholic Church.
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Soutane
Guest
I don’t think they’d care what you’d call it.They were deceived and abused by predatory homosexual chickenhawks that other responsible homosexuals revile.It is hebephilia or for Americans, ephebophilia if you want to get clinical.Most pedophiliac abuse occurs in the family by mommies and especially daddies.Where do you think baby and toddler porn comes from and who is the rapist and the camera holder,why it’s mom and dad who can make thousands by torturing their innocents.Why don’t you look one of those males up and try to convince them that it wasn’t pedophilia?
We have a predatory homosexual problem in the Church.A figure of 80% of the victims being young men and pubescent boys being victimised is definitive and overwhelming and final.I took statistical analysis as part of my studies in various disciplines at various universities and let me tell you that no matter how much you argue,stamp your feet and semanticize,NOTHING will change that fact.As my friend Farouk says “wake up and smell the curry”.
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Soutane
Guest
You are not making a cogent and convincing arguement.Sorry,but it just doesn’t pass muster.No-you’re just towing the Catholic league’s line.
The ages in the study from what I’ve seen so far involving boys are between 11 and 17.
Maybe everyone here in this messageboard thinks so, but, I can assure you it’s not.
You are making your judgements based on your pre concieved notions.
- And the study does not make any judgement on that. It does not say, at least from the 4 pages I’ve read through so far concerning the abuse AND the behavioral problems concerning priests that it is homosexuality. The study, from what I’ve seen so far only made a distinction between ttypes of sexual abuse and you yourselves just filled in the blanks.
As for “the VAST majority of sexual abuse in the church is homosexual in nature”:
Table 3.4.7 CLASSIFICATION OF FITNESS AND/OR
BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS
Classification of Problem Count % of all
responses
Sexual Relationship
Problems
Coercive Sex with Males 18 .8%
Coercive Sex with Females 10 .4%
That’s not overwhelming -You are just jumping to conclusions.
You have to totally ignore the law and mentally obfuscate basic Christian societal standards to come to the conclusions that people here are coming to.
I’m tired of arguing this. It’s just going to have to get worse before it gets better.
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Soutane
Guest
There are none so blind as the wilfully blindWe shall see. We shall see.
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Soutane
Guest
Ever hear of bisexuality.?Sexual abuse of male teenagers has as much to do with homosexuality as sexual abuse of female teenagers has to do with heterosexuality.
When a male teacher has sexual contact with a female student we don’t decide to only have homosexual teachers for female students.
And on top of that, Fr. Kiesle who molested boys yet he also ended up marrying an adult woman. So, is he gay or straight? When it comes to sexual abuse, the normal lines of homosexual/heterosexual are useless.
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joe_clark
Guest
When it comes to sexual abuse, the normal lines of homosexual/heterosexual are useless is correct because this is actually pedophila, by adult pedophiles. Pedophiles can be straight, gay, judges, lawyers, policeman, male or female, crossing guards, parking attendants…well you get it… anyone.Sexual abuse of male teenagers has as much to do with homosexuality as sexual abuse of female teenagers has to do with heterosexuality.
When a male teacher has sexual contact with a female student we don’t decide to only have homosexual teachers for female students.
And on top of that, Fr. Kiesle who molested boys yet he also ended up marrying an adult woman. So, is he gay or straight? When it comes to sexual abuse, the normal lines of homosexual/heterosexual are useless.
When an adult male or female molests an 8-9-10 year old child, this is not homosexuality, this is pedophilia. The everything homo angle is being used as an attempt to deflect and evade responsibility of ones self as a human being. There appears to be in this, an attempt to minimize the gravity toward the priests and the church. It’s easier to sell to the public and the faithful: it was the homo’s that abused the children, not the adult males and females who acting as actual pedophiles, prayed on and sexually abused children as young as 7 years old? How in anyones right mind can this be homosexuality? Really? Just an opinion: to me, it is like digging a whole so deep that you will not be able to climb out from.
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markeverett49
Guest
In 2009 there were a mere six credible allegations of abuse against a base of 70,000,000 Catholics. All that means the Church already responded to this crisis a long time ago, and my understanding is that work was done mainly in the seminaries.QUOTE]
70,000,000 Catholics, maybe, though I thought the figure higher, but certainly not 70,000,000 priests! (We’re only talking about clerical sexual abuse here; sexual predators who are Catholic but not clergy don’t count.) If everything was taken care of years ago, why a) change the policy in recent years and b) have Vatican-ordered ‘visitations’ of all US seminaries in the past few years? Not to mention this: if homosexuality is the problem and the problem was solved in the '80s, why have so many homosexual priests been ordained since then???
The point the Vatican keeps missing is that people are outraged at the overseers, not just the predators. We don’t expect predators to behave themselves, but we do (or did) expect clergy who knew of abuse to report it.
The rationale of hiding abuse ‘for the good of the Church’ was a terrible prudential judgment—who now thinks that was ‘best for the Church’? It has proved a nightmare for the Church, and an avoidable one at that.
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Soutane
Guest
When an adult male molests pubescent boys(not the pre-pubescent ones you mention) and young men this is not pedophilia but homosexual ephebophilia.You can stamp your feet and close your ears but it won’t change the facts one iota.No one is saying that all homosexual priests are hebephiles-most are not as most homosexuals in the secular world are not.Pedophilia afflicts approximately 4% of the heterosexual male population-96% are not.Pedophilia is incurable as is probably ephebophilia,and general heterosexual rapists of adult females.All should be incarcerated for life upon the first conviction as this is the ONLY way to protect the innocent.There IS a Lavender Mafia in the Church,especially the seminaries and it needs to be excised with EXTREME prejudice.When it comes to sexual abuse, the normal lines of homosexual/heterosexual are useless is correct because this is actually pedophila, by adult pedophiles. Pedophiles can be straight, gay, judges, lawyers, policeman, male or female, crossing guards, parking attendants…well you get it… anyone.
When an adult male or female molests an 8-9-10 year old child, this is not homosexuality, this is pedophilia. The everything homo angle is being used as an attempt to deflect and evade responsibility of ones self as a human being. There appears to be in this, an attempt to minimize the gravity toward the priests and the church. It’s easier to sell to the public and the faithful: it was the homo’s that abused the children, not the adult males and females who acting as actual pedophiles, prayed on and sexually abused children as young as 7 years old? How in anyones right mind can this be homosexuality? Really? Just an opinion: to me, it is like digging a whole so deep that you will not be able to climb out from.
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Soutane
Guest
"The point the Vatican keeps missing is that people are outraged at the overseers, not just the predators. We don’t expect predators to behave themselves, but we do (or did) expect clergy who knew of abuse to report it.
The rationale of hiding abuse ‘for the good of the Church’ was a terrible prudential judgment—who now thinks that was ‘best for the Church’? It has proved a nightmare for the Church, and an avoidable one at that."
Who can argue with that.In my estimation the ones who covered things up are MORE complicit than those miserable wretches who abused pubescent boys and young men.But back when it was occuring throughout society it was hushed up ESPECIALLY within families.However the world has every right to expect much more from the only Divine Institution instituted by Christ.We must ALL be willing to undergo this seemingly ENDLESS crucifixtion for the sins of a few.I’m willing to be emotionally and physically martyred for the Faith,and the failings of these poor sinners, as I’m sure most here are,but not for the heterosexual pedophiliac LIE.
The rationale of hiding abuse ‘for the good of the Church’ was a terrible prudential judgment—who now thinks that was ‘best for the Church’? It has proved a nightmare for the Church, and an avoidable one at that."
Who can argue with that.In my estimation the ones who covered things up are MORE complicit than those miserable wretches who abused pubescent boys and young men.But back when it was occuring throughout society it was hushed up ESPECIALLY within families.However the world has every right to expect much more from the only Divine Institution instituted by Christ.We must ALL be willing to undergo this seemingly ENDLESS crucifixtion for the sins of a few.I’m willing to be emotionally and physically martyred for the Faith,and the failings of these poor sinners, as I’m sure most here are,but not for the heterosexual pedophiliac LIE.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
irishpatrick;6520013:
credible allegations of abuse against a base of 70,000,000 Catholics. All that means the Church already responded to this crisis a long time ago, and my understanding is that work was done mainly in the seminaries.QUOTE]In 2009 there were a mere six
70,000,000 Catholics, maybe, though I thought the figure higher, but certainly not 70,000,000 priests! (We’re only talking about clerical sexual abuse here; sexual predators who are Catholic but not clergy don’t count.) If everything was taken care of years ago, why a) change the policy in recent years and b) have Vatican-ordered ‘visitations’ of all US seminaries in the past few years? Not to mention this: if homosexuality is the problem and the problem was solved in the '80s, why have so many homosexual priests been ordained since then???
The point the Vatican keeps missing is that people are outraged at the overseers, not just the predators. We don’t expect predators to behave themselves, but we do (or did) expect clergy who knew of abuse to report it.
The rationale of hiding abuse ‘for the good of the Church’ was a terrible prudential judgment—who now thinks that was ‘best for the Church’? It has proved a nightmare for the Church, and an avoidable one at that.
May be you need to rethink your position. whose side are you on? the media or the CC?
do you always believe what the media says? i dont. but i believe everythign the Church says.
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Alisa
Guest
Rather than talk about homosexuality or celibacy, or both, as implicating factors in the abuse of young people by certain priests, why not state this in a positive way: By opening up the institution of marriage to priests, think how many young (and not-so-young) men might be attracted to the Catholic priesthood – men who may now be shying away from even considering the priesthood because they are looking forward to being in love and having children. Why make this an either/or situation?
I was Eastern Orthodox for 12 years, and as many of you know, Orthodox priests (though not bishops or higher) marry and have families. Because I’ve known many Catholic and Orthodox priests, I feel the Orthodox priests are more in touch with the joys (and complications) of living life in the 21st century and therefore seem to be better counselors and spiritual leaders. This is my own opinion, but I’ve lived life in both Orthodox parishes and Catholic parishes, and the Orthodox Church provides a much healthier environment for priests, as well as lay men, women, and children. The Orthodox priest’s wife is addressed as “Presvytera,” and is given respect for the special responsibility she holds in the parish. It works very well.
If you make celibacy a requisite for being a Catholic priest, it’s not surprising that many men who are running from their sexuality or confused about it might consider the Catholic priesthood a safe harbor of sorts (or worse – providing opportunities for sexual exploitation).
Alisa
I was Eastern Orthodox for 12 years, and as many of you know, Orthodox priests (though not bishops or higher) marry and have families. Because I’ve known many Catholic and Orthodox priests, I feel the Orthodox priests are more in touch with the joys (and complications) of living life in the 21st century and therefore seem to be better counselors and spiritual leaders. This is my own opinion, but I’ve lived life in both Orthodox parishes and Catholic parishes, and the Orthodox Church provides a much healthier environment for priests, as well as lay men, women, and children. The Orthodox priest’s wife is addressed as “Presvytera,” and is given respect for the special responsibility she holds in the parish. It works very well.
If you make celibacy a requisite for being a Catholic priest, it’s not surprising that many men who are running from their sexuality or confused about it might consider the Catholic priesthood a safe harbor of sorts (or worse – providing opportunities for sexual exploitation).
Alisa
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