Cardinal Bertone: Homosexuality is the problem, not celibacy [CWN]

[estesbob]

Rather than talk about homosexuality or celibacy, or both, as implicating factors in the abuse of young people by certain priests, why not state this in a positive way: By opening up the institution of marriage to priests, think how many young (and not-so-young) men might be attracted to the Catholic priesthood – men who may now be shying away from even considering the priesthood because they are looking forward to being in love and having children. Why make this an either/or situation?

Although I personally support allowing Priests to marry it must be pointed out that Denominations that have married clergy are (in the West) having the same decrease in vocations that the CC does and have a higher rate of abuse than the CC does.

Orthodox Priests have been involved in abuse also.

 

[Alisa]

I would add to my previous comment: Yes, sexual abuse can be found in any church, school, or other institution. But shouldn’t the ancient church of Jesus Himself be expected to adhere to a higher standard of conduct for its leaders? Rather than blame “the anti-Catholic press” for singling out the Catholic Church, how about looking at it this way: The fact that there is such a disappointed and angry outcry about this scandal demonstrates the high expectations people have of the Catholic Church and its leaders. Rather than looking at it as a “see how they’re out to get us” situation, we should be both proud that people expected far more of our church and deeply ashamed and humiliated that they are disillusioned about the church. The messenger is being blamed for the message here. In my opinion, it’s bad enough that these incidents occurred over time – but much, much worse that the overall situation has been mishandled by our respected church leaders, and for so long.

Alisa

 

[baylee]

I would add to my previous comment: Yes, sexual abuse can be found in any church, school, or other institution. But shouldn’t the ancient church of Jesus Himself be expected to adhere to a higher standard of conduct for its leaders? Rather than blame “the anti-Catholic press” for singling out the Catholic Church, how about looking at it this way: The fact that there is such a disappointed and angry outcry about this scandal demonstrates the high expectations people have of the Catholic Church and its leaders. Rather than looking at it as a “see how they’re out to get us” situation, we should be both proud that people expected far more of our church and deeply ashamed and humiliated that they are disillusioned about the church. The messenger is being blamed for the message here. In my opinion, it’s bad enough that these incidents occurred over time – but much, much worse that the overall situation has been mishandled by our respected church leaders, and for so long.

Alisa

I have no problem with accurate, truthful reporting even if it it stings. It’s when I see time after time something less than the full truth. There’s usually just enough of it that is true to mislead others…and this is what I have a huge issue with.

 

[estesbob]

I would add to my previous comment: Yes, sexual abuse can be found in any church, school, or other institution. But shouldn’t the ancient church of Jesus Himself be expected to adhere to a higher standard of conduct for its leaders? Rather than blame “the anti-Catholic press” for singling out the Catholic Church, how about looking at it this way: The fact that there is such a disappointed and angry outcry about this scandal demonstrates the high expectations people have of the Catholic Church and its leaders. Rather than looking at it as a “see how they’re out to get us” situation, we should be both proud that people expected far more of our church and deeply ashamed and humiliated that they are disillusioned about the church. The messenger is being blamed for the message here. In my opinion, it’s bad enough that these incidents occurred over time – but much, much worse that the overall situation has been mishandled by our respected church leaders, and for so long.

Alisa

I absolutely agree they should be held to a higher standard. However when lies are told about them they should defend themselves-the recent NYT hit pieces being perfect examples of what must be responded to

 

[Hereswith]

I found this so interesting. Cardinal Bertone says he has documentation. I can’t wait to know what that is.

I worked with sexual assault victims for years, during the 1980s and 90s. We were taught to believe - what has since become the accepted politically correct line - that same-sex abuse of children has nothing to do with homosexuality. I think most of the time it doesn’t. But. . . I am keeping an open mind until we know what Cardinal Bertone knows.

I have to wonder if there were as many alter girls as boys - available to pedaphile priests - the numbers would be similar as far as victims. We know and have known for decades, statistically, that true pedaphiles don’t generally have a gender preference - it’s more about availability. They do often have an age preference.

There is another angle too that makes it complicated. If you are a pedaphile who has a preference for pre-adolescent males, wouldn’t the priesthood be the ideal profession in which to prey upon these kids? It’s better than coaching little league!

I am haunted by something my homosexual brother-in-law said years ago as we passed some young boys on the street - “Hmm. fresh meat!” He seemed to think it was his right to think about “initiating” teens into the joys of gay sex. I can’t help but think his attitude is not uncommon. (That memory still sickens me.) I don’t think he was all that unusual. His gay friends were the same way.

 

[Hereswith]

Something else interesting: Chilean MP Hugo Gutierrez was quoted as saying, regarding the Cardinal Bertone thing: " Celibacy does more damage to a human being than homosexuality, which is a freely-made choice."

Ok, so. . . celibacy is NOT a freely-made choice? I was at first amazed that he could be so ignorant of the virtue of celibacy, but then I realized he is a communist. I imagine that as such, his knowledge of the most powerful church in his country, is not that thorough.

 

[Alisa]

From some good friends and family members who are gay, I have observed that homosexuality is not “a freely made choice”. I have known these individuals for their entire lives, and they did not “choose” to be gay. However, celibacy IS a freely made choice, right?

Alisa

 

[Soutane]

I have no problem with accurate, truthful reporting even if it it stings. It’s when I see time after time something less than the full truth. There’s usually just enough of it that is true to mislead others…and this is what I have a huge issue with.

Bravo Baylee.There is not a devout Catholic alive who is not mortified by what has occurred and not one will deny that IT DID occur.The truth must come out no matter how excruciating it is.AND it is.It is the glee,exaggeration,half-lies and out and out Shadenfreude that rankles and the continuous lying use of the word pedophilia when it is precisely homosexual predatory behaviour as practised by a deviant minority of the homosexual community of whom we seem to possess a surfeit.It is also being used as a megawatt Siren to drown out the Truth that Christ’s only Church teaches on abortion,euthanasia,so-called same-sex marriage,chastity for one’s station in life,divorce,pornography etc.My Parish Priest says we must follow Christ’s example and be crucified and I am willing to do so but NOT for the lie of pedophilia but for the Truth of ephebophilia.
Christ had one Judas in Twelve.Proportionately we have far fewer and we are dealing with them, and their protectors.

NOTHING will satisfy the media and the enemies of the Church now that they and Satan smell blood.Benedict could burn every wretched ephebophiliac in a massive auto de fe in St Peter’s square and even immolate himself,but it is the Truth that the Church teaches that the World despises and only when the Church is SILENCED will they be content.(Which will NEVER happen…The Gates of Hell will NEVER prevail upon MY Church)

 

[sidbrown]

Bravo Baylee.There is not a devout Catholic alive who is not mortified by what has occurred and not one will deny that IT DID occur.The truth must come out no matter how excruciating it is.AND it is.It is the glee,exaggeration,half-lies and out and out Shadenfreude that rankles and the continuous lying use of the word pedophilia when it is precisely homosexual predatory behaviour as practised by a deviant minority of the homosexual community of whom we seem to possess a surfeit.It is also being used as a megawatt Siren to drown out the Truth that Christ’s only Church teaches on abortion,euthanasia,so-called same-sex marriage,chastity for one’s station in life,divorce,pornography etc.My Parish Priest says we must follow Christ’s example and be crucified and I am willing to do so but NOT for the lie of pedophilia but for the Truth of ephebophilia.
Christ had one Judas in Twelve.Proportionately we have far fewer and we are dealing with them, and their protectors.

NOTHING will satisfy the media and the enemies of the Church now that they and Satan smell blood.Benedict could burn every wretched ephebophiliac in a massive auto de fe in St Peter’s square and even immolate himself,but it is the Truth that the Church teaches that the World despises and only when the Church is SILENCED will they be content.(Which will NEVER happen…The Gates of Hell will NEVER prevail upon MY Church)

At what age do you say it stops being pedophilia?
In any case, whatever you want to call it, it is still wrong and should not have been tolerated. By tolerated. I mean moving people around from one location to another and not notifying the civil authorities of the crime.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Of course, none of this addresses the biggest aspect of the scandal: the cover up by the bishops…

 

[Soutane]

At what age do you say it stops being pedophilia?
In any case, whatever you want to call it, it is still wrong and should not have been tolerated. By tolerated. I mean moving people around from one location to another and not notifying the civil authorities of the crime.

Pubesence of course.It was NEVER tolerated by your average Catholic in the pew-we were completely unaware of it;however some bishops certainly were aware of it and while I disagree that it was tolerated, the bulk of these men were referred for totally ineffectual counselling ,then transfered and hopefully swept under the rug.At the time it was NEVER reported to authorities when it occurred,for example in the Family where it remains grossly underreported,nor in schools,nor in scouting and not in sports either.It is only recently that evidence i of Child Abuse is a requirement in law to be reported.I know this is the case in Canada and presumably in foreign lands such as the U.S.A. and Britain.
Pedophilia is a heterosexual disease;ephebophilia is a homosexual disease.80% of the cases of abuse were against pubescent boys,young men and even seminarians.We have a predatory homosexual problem in the Church not a heteosexual pedophilia problem.If homosexual apologists and the media which treats homosexuals as sacred cows were truthful the Truth would come out and we as the Body of Christ could deal with it effectively and with finality.
I apologise to normal homosexuals within and without the Church who are not attracted to and do not prey on what another poster has characterised as “fresh meat”,a term in itself which bespeaks volumes.The Truth WILL come out and then we can look forward to being labeled homophobic pedophiliacs.It is all so predictable.

 

[KellyGirlErin]

Only a fool at the Vatican would defend the Church against the crisis of predator priests and their enablers by saying, “Wait, the REAL problem is all the gay priests we’ve ordained” as if ordaining all those priests was not the Church’s responsibility.

Furthermore, why is the Vatican not moving to laicize all gay priests and bishops on the grounds that they are a threat to children?

Maybe because not ALL gay priests and bishops ARE a threat to children.

 

[Soutane]

Of course, none of this addresses the biggest aspect of the scandal: the cover up by the bishops…

Everyone covered it up back then-Mothers especially,teachers unions,team sports and sporting associations,Big Brothers,Big Sisters,Protestant Eclaisial Bodies,the Jews,the the Orthodox,Jws,7th Day Adventists,Mormons etc
EVERYBODY has 20-20 hindsight.It was wrong and quite ineffective.Now ALL segments of society know better and we can ALL deal with it openly.The Church like Caesar’s wife must not only be above reproach,she must appear to be above reproach.One instance of hebephiliac abuse within the Church is one too many,but I refuse to give these other organizations,religions and associations a Free Pass and so should you and ESPECIALLY the Media.To do so otherwise reveals agendas and hypocracy that stinks to the highest reaches of heaven…

 

[Soutane]

Maybe because not ALL gay priests and bishops ARE a threat to children.

Exactly.the few hebephiliac priests and secular hebephiliacs are reviled by most responsible homosexuals who fear being tainted by the same brush.My heart goes out to those priests who struggle with same-sex attraction,yet maintain their persective on Christ and the call to chastity let alone who are thought guilty by association to the predatory hebephiliacs who have hidden in the Church and have used Her as their own hunting ground.

 

[sidbrown]

Everyone covered it up back then-…

Not really. For example, Auguste Ambroise Tardieu did not cover it up in 1857, when he wrote his work on child sexual abuse: “Etude Médico-Légale sur les Attentats aux Mœurs.”

 

[Soutane]

Not really. For example, Auguste Ambroise Tardieu did not cover it up in 1857, when he wrote his work on child sexual abuse: “Etude Médico-Légale sur les Attentats aux Mœurs.”

An exception to the rule.

But to tell you the truth I’ve never heard of it before.
As i speak a modicum of non-parisian Manitoba French the closest I can come up with is"Study on medical-legal attacks on manners"Which i’m sure does not capture the Je ne sais quoi of the meaning.

 

[sidbrown]

An exception to the rule.

But to tell you the truth I’ve never heard of it before.
As i speak a modicum of non-parisian Manitoba French the closest I can come up with is"Study on medical-legal attacks on manners"Which i’m sure does not capture the Je ne sais quoi of the meaning.

Please see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguste_Ambroise_Tardieu
Notice that he did not want to cover up anything.

 

[Phemie]

An exception to the rule.

But to tell you the truth I’ve never heard of it before.
As i speak a modicum of non-parisian Manitoba French the closest I can come up with is"Study on medical-legal attacks on manners"Which i’m sure does not capture the Je ne sais quoi of the meaning.

More like “Medico-legal study on indecent assaults” ‘attentat aux moeurs’ is properly translated “offence against public decency”

 

[baylee]

I found this so interesting. Cardinal Bertone says he has documentation. I can’t wait to know what that is.

I worked with sexual assault victims for years, during the 1980s and 90s. We were taught to believe - what has since become the accepted politically correct line - that same-sex abuse of children has nothing to do with homosexuality. I think most of the time it doesn’t. But. . . I am keeping an open mind until we know what Cardinal Bertone knows.

**I agree. It would be interesting to see what this documentation is and if it is truly non-biased as well. **

I have to wonder if there were as many alter girls as boys - available to pedaphile priests - the numbers would be similar as far as victims. We know and have known for decades, statistically, that true pedaphiles don’t generally have a gender preference - it’s more about availability. They do often have an age preference.

But aren’t there just as many girls in the confessional? **Is it really true that there was that much more availability to boys? **

There is another angle too that makes it complicated. If you are a pedaphile who has a preference for pre-adolescent males, wouldn’t the priesthood be the ideal profession in which to prey upon these kids? It’s better than coaching little league!

I am haunted by something my homosexual brother-in-law said years ago as we passed some young boys on the street - “Hmm. fresh meat!” He seemed to think it was his right to think about “initiating” teens into the joys of gay sex. I can’t help but think his attitude is not uncommon. (That memory still sickens me.) I don’t think he was all that unusual. His gay friends were the same way.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Everyone covered it up back then-

Back then? Perhaps in the 50’s and 60’s. Not necessarily the 70’s and 80’s. And even back in the 50’s and 60’s while some things might be covered up, the bishops seemed particularly uninterested in protecting children.

EVERYBODY has 20-20 hindsight.It was wrong and quite ineffective.Now ALL segments of society know better and we can ALL deal with it openly.The Church like Caesar’s wife must not only be above reproach,she must appear to be above reproach.One instance of hebephiliac abuse within the Church is one too many,but I refuse to give these other organizations,religions and associations a Free Pass and so should you and ESPECIALLY the Media.To do so otherwise reveals agendas and hypocracy that stinks to the highest reaches of heaven…

Crying “everyone else was doing it” wasn’t a vaid excuse when we were kids and it sure as heck isn’t one now…