Cardinal Burke celebrates magnificent Ordinary Form Mass

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triumphguy said:
My cousin was in Westminster Cathedral Choir, so I went to quite a few services there. That choir is magnificent!

You are right about the Oratory - I find it dark and gloomy too. And I don’t particularly like the cathedral either - it’s even darker. I prefer Gothic to byzantine or Romanesque.

Unfortunately the Protestants got all the best Catholic Churches:mad:
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I agree about the darkness in the Cathedral, but I find it’s more than countered by the genuine warrmth of welcome you find there, the relaxed execution of the liturgy (neither of which you find at the Oratory), and the wonderful choir which I agree is magnificent.

Re your last comment - the only pre-reformation edifiice in the West End of London is Westminster Abbey. There are many beautiful Anglo-Catholic churches but Farm Street Church of the Immaculate Conception and St James Spanish Place are just as nice.
 
I agree about the warmth of Westminster Cathedral - and there’s a great view from the bell tower!

After one service Cardinal Hulme chatted to me about football and cricket - since he found out I was from Lancashire and he was from Yorkshire. He didn’t know me from Adam but he warmly and genuinely engaged me in conversation.
 
liturgyluver said:
I agree about the darkness in the Cathedral, but I find it’s more than countered by the genuine warrmth of welcome you find there, the relaxed execution of the liturgy (neither of which you find at the Oratory), and the wonderful choir which I agree is magnificent.

Re your last comment - the only pre-reformation edifiice in the West End of London is Westminster Abbey. There are many beautiful Anglo-Catholic churches but Farm Street Church of the Immaculate Conception and St James Spanish Place are just as nice.
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shudder
 
liturgyluver said:
Yes, I think so. Last time I counted there were 12 Catholic and 50 Anglican parishes that have Polyphonic settings and robed choirs.
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I don’t remember that when I lived in London. However, it seems the first “polyphonic” song I heard in the states was “Row, row, row your boat.” 😃
 
liturgyluver said:
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Re your last comment - the only pre-reformation edifiice in the West End of London is Westminster Abbey. There are many beautiful Anglo-Catholic churches but Farm Street Church of the Immaculate Conception and St James Spanish Place are just as nice.
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I wasn’t thinking specifically of London, however there is Temple Church
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The Church was built by the Knights Templar, the order of crusading monks founded to protect pilgrims on their way to and from Jerusalem in the 12th century. The Church is in two parts: the Round and the Chancel. The Round Church was consecrated in 1185 by the patriarch of Jerusalem. It was designed to recall the holiest place in the Crusaders’ world: the circular Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. It is a numinous space – and has a wonderful acoustic for singing. templechurch.com/history-2/
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What sort of music did you have in the Newman centre?

I go to Westminster Cathedral, mostly for Confession, and they do have beautiful music and lots of sung Masses, but my local Parish sings Hymns with or without instrumental help. It varies.
 
triumphguy said:
I wasn’t thinking specifically of London, however there is Temple Church
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Yes I had forgotten about Temple though of course it was modified and restored by Christopher Wren and then ruined by bomb damage in WW2 so not really an original, but a beautiful space.

Technically it doesn’t come under the jurisdiction of the CofE as it’s a Royal Peculiar, but its liturgies and music are Anglican. It too has a splendid choir
 
=YoungTradCath;9354914]The Cardinal and Oratorians put on a Mass that I would very likely give up two EFs per month to go to:
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newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/05/cardinal-burke-at-london-oratory_30.html
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It was the Feast–at Oratories, actually a Solemnity–of St. Philip Neri.
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And yes, for the record, he wore a cappa magna, and buskins, and pontifical sandals, and gloves. Oh and a pontifical dalmatic, but these are becoming so increasingly common that it’s kind of pointless to mention it.
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The Kyrie and Gloria were from Haydn’s Theresienmesse, the Credo was III, and the Sanctus and Agnus Dei–I’m not sure which–were from the Liber Usualis. The Sanctus and Agnus Dei would have been the polyphonic settings, but since you can’t “layer” the singing “over” the ritual, the Mass would have been rather prolonged. The Ordinary Form is an extreme impediment to singing longer polyphonic settings for this reason. Nevertheless, it was magnificent I’m sure.
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:D:D:D
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Pics are too large for this forum, but go have a look.
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PS: So much for the 1970s… this is surely the 1670s!
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WOW:D

Cardinal Burke is among other thing; the International Director of the Marian Catechist Lay Apostolate, of which I am a member. Our Charism to to know, live and taech our Roman Catholic Faith in line with our Popes will and the Ordinary Magisterium.

In August we will have our annual renewal of Vows for the MCLA. His Emmenice is scheduled to say TWO Masses so, God wiling I will get an opportunity to experience what you did.😃

What a blessing this Good and Holt servant is.👍

God Bless you and thanks for sharing!

pat/PJM
 
In my seven-and-a-half years on CAF I have never before seen a thread that so clearly illustrates the degree to which the traditional/non-traditional divide is actually about aesthetics rather than belief.
 
Hokomai said:
In my seven-and-a-half years on CAF I have never before seen a thread that so clearly illustrates the degree to which the traditional/non-traditional divide is actually about aesthetics rather than belief.
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Well the belief is exactly the same, it’s the same rite even: “just” the form is different.
 
Hokomai said:
In my seven-and-a-half years on CAF I have never before seen a thread that so clearly illustrates the degree to which the traditional/non-traditional divide is actually about aesthetics rather than belief.
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I think aesthetics is an area where the OF is enriched by the EF and other lithurgies such as the Eastern and those of the Religious. Beauty can be found in simpleness as described by our Franciscan Friar JReduction as well as in more elaborate lithurgies. I think most of us want a sense of transcendence, for the sensory experience to reflect the spiritual reality of the Mass as Heaven on Earth.
 
asd72 said:
I think aesthetics is an area where the OF is enriched by the EF and other lithurgies such as the Eastern and those of the Religious. Beauty can be found in simpleness as described by our Franciscan Friar JReduction as well as in more elaborate lithurgies. I think most of us want a sense of transcendence, for the sensory experience to reflect the spiritual reality of the Mass as Heaven on Earth.
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I am fascinated by the idea that God himself becoming physically present in the bread and wine is not enough for you. Why do you need more at a Mass?
 
YoungTradCath said:
They are the right thing for a bishop to wear, and centuries of tradition supports this uninterruptedly. Now, a bishop can wear Nike basketball shoes if he likes during Mass (really not trying to be snarky, but this effectively the case) because there are no requirements.

However, it is fitting to say that buskins and sandals are proper to bishops and are “the right thing” more so than any other random shoe.
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Why the “Nike basketball shoes” hyperbole? Nothing like a little emotion to derail the discussion, huh? As I said in this case from a utility standpoint he had to wear something. I hardly think they were they were the “right thing” to wear. maybe a nice pair of black dress shoes next time.
YoungTradCath said:
Their requirement is suppressed but priests and prelates are free to wear buckled shoes if they wish.
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You too have that reversed. Their requirement was not suppressed. Priests were never required to wear them. Wearing them was supressed at one point – might still be for all I know.
 
Hokomai said:
In my seven-and-a-half years on CAF I have never before seen a thread that so clearly illustrates the degree to which the traditional/non-traditional divide is actually about aesthetics rather than belief.
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I’m not even sure that’s the case. I think of myself as very traditional-minded in a liturgical sense but buskins, slippers, lace and capes do very little for me.
 
=Hokomai;9361530]In my seven-and-a-half years on CAF I have never before seen a thread that so clearly illustrates the degree to which the traditional/non-traditional divide is actually about aesthetics rather than belief.
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😦 SORRY friend, but IMO you have miised the point.🙂

God Bless you,
pat /PJM
 
Hokomai said:
I am fascinated by the idea that God himself becoming physically present in the bread and wine is not enough for you. Why do you need more at a Mass?
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It is not about wanting more. But beauty extends beyond just aesthetics, beautiful art and music has a sacred place in Catholism. I think ultimately it points to God. Not just surface beauty, but beauty as a whole, in creation, and in becoming Holy as human beings.
 
Hokomai said:
I am fascinated by the idea that God himself becoming physically present in the bread and wine is not enough for you. Why do you need more at a Mass?
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I’m fascinated that you don’t think this miracle deserves the very best to go along with it. I am stunned at the lack of preparation of some Masses. You’d think the miracle of the Mass would have people burning the midnight oil to prepare. Instead it’s often used as an excuse for poor preaching, poor coordination of the Mass, poor music, etc.
 
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