Cardinal Burke Outlines Formal Correction of Pope Francis’ Teaching

[Blue_Horizon]

Blue, everybody here loves Pope Francis. Our words aren’t passive aggressive; they demonstrate the true feelings of disorientation and confusion caused by the Pope’s ambiguity and silence in the face of grave theological crisis.

Can’t you see the confusion and disunity? The Sacred Deposit of Faith is under threat by those who say that the clear teaching of the Lord can be ignored for pastoral reasons.

I listened to retreat given by Ven. Fulton Sheen. He said that our age is the fourth great crisis in the Church. He said that the crisis is about our relationship to the world. And he asked us whether we swim against the tide and stand with Christ or accept compromise and stand with the world. I stand with Christ and the constant teachings of his Church. I will not accept doctrinal compromises to please the world or to help the German Church keep hold of its church tax.

Amoris Laetitia will be revoked or clarified. I don’t think things will not be allowed to continue in this way. Perhaps Amoris Laetitia is a test of Faith. Maybe the Lord wants to see who will remain faithful to his teachings and who will accept worldly compromise. I thank the Lord for giving us St. John Paul II. I’ll not go wrong if I constantly remind myself of his magisterial teachings.

We obviously live on different planets.
95% of Catholics in my world have never felt the need to discuss AL let alone criticise the theological and pastoral experience of P Francis.
The other 5% who do discuss these things overwhelmingly have no axe to grind nor does it keep them awake at night.

So know I dont accept the chicken lichen hysteria you may suffer from that the roof of the Catholic Church is falling down in large chunks as we speak.

Of course your Catholic world may be doing so, but then you are allowing certain Cardinals to push your distrust and fears into the red zone instead of just toughing it out as we are all called to do in our lives at times.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I wish Pope Francis would start Pontificating…instead of insulting Catholics for being ‘neo-pelegians’ who breed like rabbits and who can’t stop falling into ‘coprophilia.’ I didn’t know what ‘coprophilia’ was until Pope Francis used the word - at least he’s teaching me something.

We get it you dont like the Pope.
That doesnt make him wrong or a bad leader.

The more you emotionally vent without actually providing objective argument on matters of real significance the less credibility you garner here. Why not just punch holes in the hallway instead, it will provide the same level of private satisfaction without the public embarrassment .

 

[Blue_Horizon]

What is so different and confusing about marriage, divorce, and remarriage than when Popes JPII and Benedict XVI specifically addressed his topic? What modern conditions and problems exist now that didn’t exist just a decade or two ago?

Is you head buried in the sand or are you just too young to have been in the Church in the early 1960s .
The divorced and remarried, if they had the cheek to openly attend Church at all, were treated as Pariahs by people just like you and me…who didnt know how to cope with such bad sinners. And that is putting it kindly.

Now you must know that such divorce and remarriage has penetrated to the bosom of the Church for decades now. The percentages for Catholics is just as high as for the great unwashed. That has never before happened in the history of Christianity.
And you never noticed .

Now many influential Churchmen are increasingly aware first hand of all that is involved by means of sisters, parents or uncles and aunts in their own families. They know they are not the devils that we once were led to believe they were. A number of such Cardinals and bishops have declared exactly this in their talks.

Completely new times make for new understandings changes and adaptations.

It has all happened before over Communion for soldiers and for the traditores.
As these external pariah groups became more and more a part of normal Christian experience and found to be good people despite the disorder…they were integrated and ways found for them to receive Communion.

That is exactly what is happening in our own times.

You simply do not have the theological education, the Church history, the pastoral experience or native wit to fully appreciate the matters. That is why we are called laity and that is fine.

What is not fine is that you do not trust or follow your legitimate helmsman who does know these things well and has been approved by the majority of his peers and by God.

But no, in your lay confusion you murmur and want to jump ship with any disaffected Cardinal who agrees with you.
You are being manipulated by your lack of trust and by your anability to accept you do not really have what it takes to understand these issues.

 

[irenaeus1]

Hah, petitioning for clarity.
You mean baying for retraction, who are you and C. Bourke trying to kid.
CB is not Pope, you are not Pope, so lets stop the Pontificating .

As been noted previously, regardless of motive or intent, the questions provided in the dubia and other petitions from scholars remain valid. It’s almost as if you realize that the progressive interpretation of AL cannot be defended.

 

[irenaeus1]

Is you head buried in the sand or are you just too young to have been in the Church in the early 1960s .
The divorced and remarried, if they had the cheek to openly attend Church at all, were treated as Pariahs by people just like you and me…who didnt know how to cope with such bad sinners. And that is putting it kindly.

Now you must know that such divorce and remarriage has penetrated to the bosom of the Church for decades now. The percentages for Catholics is just as high as for the great unwashed. That has never before happened in the history of Christianity.
And you never noticed .

So this was lost on JPII since he addressed this repeatedly in the 1980’s and 1990’s.

 

[Dempsey1919]

We get it you dont like the Pope.

I love the Pope. I’ve not shared my feelings on this thread. I’ve simply written what Pope Francis has done and what he has said. I don’t lose credibility by stating facts. The office of the Papacy loses credibility when the current Pope uses words like ‘coprophilia,’ rigs Vatican synods, allows Paul Ehrlich to speak in the Vatican, interferes in the Sovereign Order of Malta, and persecutes the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. I could go on and on…

Catholics who take the time to read the news, follow Vatican developments, and listen to Pope Francis will know all about what I’ve listed.

The Church needs more men like Cardinal Burke. At least Fr Nichols has spoken out. If Pope Francis attempts to undermine Humane Vitae as news reports predict, I have a feeling many more will begin to take a stand.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

As been noted previously, regardless of motive or intent, the questions provided in the dubia and other petitions from scholars remain valid. It’s almost as if you realize that the progressive interpretation of AL cannot be defended.

You mean like the 95 theses of Luthor
Where does this lack of self knowledge in favour of the snow white innocence of objectively valid questions end.

My parents saw through that technique the first time I tried it at the age of 10.
Who are you trying to kid.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Who are you trying to kid.

The only person trying to kid anybody is you. Every Catholic and his dog knows that AL is problematic and has caused doctrinal disunity. Thank God Cardinal Burke and others have stepped up to defend the Faith against the Kasperites.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I love the Pqope. I’ve not shared my feelings on this thread. I’ve simply written what Pope Francis has done and what he has said. I don’t lose credibility by stating facts. The office of the Papacy loses credibility when the current Pope uses words like ‘coprophilia,’ rigs Vatican synods, allows Paul Ehrlich to speak in the Vatican, interferes in the Sovereign Order of Malta, and persecutes the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. I could go on and on…

Catholics who take the time to read the news, follow Vatican developments, and listen to Pope Francis will know all about what I’ve listed.

The Church needs more men like Cardinal Burke. At least Fr Nichols has spoken out. If Pope Francis attempts to undermine Humane Vitae as news reports predict, I have a feeling many more will begin to take a stand.

You do realise Jesus and Paul spoke similarly if not much worse at times dont you…though the polite euphemisms of the Greek translators may have gone unnoticed by you?

You seem to live in an alternate reality without a reliable personal compass. If anyone needs to follow the lead of their commander in chief in confusing times I suggest it is you. That is meant as sincere helpful advice, I hope you can eventually accept it.

God bless.

 

[irenaeus1]

You mean like the 95 theses of Luthor
Where does this lack of self knowledge in favour of the snow white innocence of objectively valid questions end.

My parents saw through that technique the first time I tried it at the age of 10.
Who are you trying to kid.

Objectively valid questions do not require snow white innocence.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

So this was lost on JPII since he addressed this repeatedly in the 1980’s and 1990’s.

It appears so, do you think divorce was widespread in very conservative Catholic Poland during JPIIs formative years…let alone at the end of his life. Do you think divorce and remaariage was widespread there even in the 1980s? Do you think he had any direct experience of remarried uncles or aunts or even cousins? I think not.

A bit of quick research on the net immediately demonstrates Poland was way behind the rest of the 1st world re divorce and remarriage stats.

Every age and person no matter how great have its lacunae.
JP2 was a great man but he too had his characteristic failings and shortsihtednesses as did Aquinas, Augustine, Jerome and everybody else.

 

[Dempsey1919]

You seem to live in an alternate reality without a reliable personal compass. If anyone needs to follow the lead of their commander in chief in confusing times I suggest it is you. That is meant as sincere helpful advice, I hope you can eventually accept it.

LOL

My personal compass is the Sacred Deposit of Faith. I follow the Faith semper ubique et ab omnibus. If that means I live in an alternate reality, then I’m quite happy.

Your ultramontane view of Catholicism means that your compass needs calibrating. You would have followed Arius in the Arian crisis and would have lambasted St. Athanasius for taking his stand.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

LOL

My personal compass is the Sacred Deposit of Faith. I follow the Faith semper ubique et ab omnibus. If that means I live in an alternate reality, then I’m quite happy.

Your ultramontane view of Catholicism means that your compass needs calibrating. You would have followed Arius in the Arian crisis and would have lambasted St. Athanasius for taking his stand.

I just follow the Pope as Christ sought us to do, you maybe not so much.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I just follow the Pope as Christ sought us to do, you maybe not so much.

Show me a Bible verse or a teaching from the Popes. Prove to me that Catholics must always follow a Pope, even if that Pope strays into heresy.

I strongly suggest you read St. Robert Bellarmine and the First Vatican Council. You’re advocating ultramontane Catholicism. Your view of the office of the Papacy is incorrect. That’s why you can’t countenance that Cardinal Burke has the right and the moral duty to ask the Pope to clarify his teachings.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Show me a Bible verse or a teaching from the Popes. Prove to me that Catholics must always follow a Pope, even if that Pope strays into heresy.

I strongly suggest you read St. Robert Bellarmine and the First Vatican Council. You’re advocating ultramontane Catholicism. Your view of the office of the Papacy is incorrect. That’s why you can’t countenance that Cardinal Burke has the right and the moral duty to ask the Pope to clarify his teachings.

Dempsey you may not have realised that intelligent converse with you is no longer possible as you wont let reasonably well understood facts get in the way of your personal prejudices and fears so you end up arguing over trivialities just for the sake of it.

There is no body or group with the authority needed to determine the pompous charges you make against Pope Francis. You are working yourself into an angry frenzy and appear bereft of reason, theological education or trust in any authority figure who does not agree with your own somewhat limited understandings of what constitutes, doctrine, discipline and pastoral initiatives. Nor do you appear to well accept Vatican II.

What Protestants are to the Bible (Sola Scriptura) you appear to be re Tradition (Sola Traditio) - both deny the essential role of the living Magisterium in interpreting both correctly. Sounds like cafeteria Catholicism to me.

You demonstrate a great difficulty in tolerating lack of intellectual clarity which most of us lay people accept as part of life.

I think the following image sums up things well re those who try to rise too high beyond their state:

https://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2750&pictureid=19095

I won’t be engaging you further for the reasons stated.

PS You do know Arius wasn’t a Pope don’t you?

 

[irenaeus1]

PS You do know Arius wasn’t a Pope don’t you?

You do know that St. Athanasius wasn’t a Pope, don’t you?

 

[irenaeus1]

It appears so, do you think divorce was widespread in very conservative Catholic Poland during JPIIs formative years…let alone at the end of his life. Do you think divorce and remaariage was widespread there even in the 1980s? Do you think he had any direct experience of remarried uncles or aunts or even cousins? I think not.

A bit of quick research on the net immediately demonstrates Poland was way behind the rest of the 1st world re divorce and remarriage stats.

Every age and person no matter how great have its lacunae.
JP2 was a great man but he too had his characteristic failings and shortsihtednesses as did Aquinas, Augustine, Jerome and everybody else.

As I’m sure you would then admit that Pope Francis, too, has his blind spots. As to JPII, he was well aware of the issues and challenges surrounding divorce and remarriage outside of Poland. In fact, the Catholic Church in America was somewhat of a thorn in his side, especially considering the U.S. has about 5% of the world’s Catholic, but between 70 - 80% of the world’s petitions for declarations of nullity. Whatever JPII’s blind spots were, marriage, divorce, and remarriage was not one of them.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

You do know that St. Athanasius wasn’t a Pope, don’t you?

Because Dempsey’s comment was a bit of a non sequitor re me following the Pope so it wasn’t clear to me which Athanasius he was referring to .

But as I say it doesn’t matter.
How can Christ condemn anyone who follow’s Peter (which he clearly desired we do) in confusing times , right or wrong?
But I am not at all sure how good the fire rating is for those who substitute their own understanding of the Faith for that of Peter.

Their funeral pyre.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

As to JPII, he was well aware of the issues and challenges surrounding divorce and remarriage outside of Poland.

And you know this by personal direct enlightenment from the HS?
Give us a break.

There can be no danger in laity following the Pope in confusing times, right or wrong.
The same cannot be said of following Cardinal Bourke I am afraid.

You either humbly accept this or you don’t.
Nothing further to say for a Catholic.

 

[Sojourner003]

I welcome this move by Cardinal Burke!

No surprise there.