Cardinal Burke questions couple's suggestion to Synod on welcoming gay son and lover [CC]

[Tigg]

Can see no reason why the whole family should not celebrate Christmas together.
Doubt if grandchildren would even question the situation, but if they did, it would be an ideal opportunity to demonstrate loving acceptance. They would surely not wish their children to regard beloved family members as “sinners”.

Wow! Lest we forget, children are not dumb and can easily misunderstand nuances. Rather than demonstrate loving acceptance of sin, I think I’d use the opportunity to help them understand their catechism and the difference between the sin and the sinner.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes, both who were living lives in mortal sin.

He was condemned by the Pharisees who saw this as an abomination.

How will we respond to those living in sin, like Jesus or the Pharisees ?

Jim

 

[pnewton]

the Church needs more Burkes

I would say the need better journalists.

Ah, journalist. You make reading the news such an adventure. One never knows from the headlines what actually happened. The Cardinal simply asks a question about raising children. What is it appropriate to expose children to and at what age? He then give a caution about possible consequences of poor judgment. Anyone that argues with what he said must either not understand the language use, or just simply think kids should be taught homosexual behavior is okey-dokey. Parents exercise caution about exposing kids to all sorts of things they deem harmful. Sometimes it is okay or even needed. Sometimes it is harmful.

 

[ProVobis]

Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes, both who were living lives in mortal sin.

True, but did He share His own Body and Blood for everyone at the time?

 

[SJMink]

And this likely means you will cease to see your child any longer, and will no longer be an influence in his life.

As a parent, I would say the correct answer is “we love you anyway even if we believe you shouldn’t be doing what you’re doing. Would you like some more roast beef?”

Whether one sees a family member or not is irrelevant. Explaining the truth about their sin in a charitable manner is the correct thing to do.

False charity plays pretend in front of family and friends, gives scandal to others and ‘loves’ the sodomite son right into Hell.

 

[pnewton]

gives scandal to others and ‘loves’ the sodomite son right into Hell.

…as opposed to insulting him into Hell?

Where in the Catechism can one find homosexuals referred to as “sodomites”.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

True, but did He share His own Body and Blood for everyone at the time?

He invited everyone.

Jim

 

[SJMink]

…as opposed to insulting him into Hell?

Where in the Catechism can one find homosexuals referred to as “sodomites”.

Mr. Newton, sorry if my correct use of the English language offends your sensibilities.

 

[ProVobis]

He invited everyone.

Jim

Are you sure about that?

“It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.”

Luke 17:2
Mark 9:42
Matthew 18:6

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

We do worse, in fact.

We tell them that they can “come to dinner”, but they have to sit over in the corner, not at the table, where they can hear us talk (and maybe even hear condemn them while we do), and watch us eat, but they’re not allowed to eat themselves.

Is that not the case when we tell the imperfect “you can come, listen to the Liturgy of the Word, hear a homily that may just condemn you, and watch us receive communion but you can’t”.

I think it’s what the Holy Father meant when he said “The Eucharist is medicine for the soul, not a prize for the perfect”.

While I understand what you’re main point is, I think the analogy kind of falls apart. No one is supposed to receive communion while in a state of moral sin, irregardless of what that mortal sin is. No one is singled out.

The lack of communion is meant to be a wake up call for one’s soul, its not meant to be a punishment.

Back to the analogy, we all have family members that act inappropriately and we have to draw lines with them. Its not that we don’t love them, its not that they’re not welcome, its that their behavior is sometimes detrimental to the family as a whole.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

That’s the problem… They are sinners (we all are). If you pretend that homosexual marriage / coupling is ok, then you teach the kids that it’s not a mortal sin.

How do you interact with people of another faith? If you celebrate New Year’s with a Jewish couple are you teaching your kids that Jesus doesn’t matter? I think we can cordially interact with different people teaching our kids the commandments of Christ about love and charity while also upholding the essentials of our moral ethics.

 

[pnewton]

Mr. Newton, sorry if my correct use of the English language offends your sensibilities.

My sensibilities are not offended, but this is a Catholic website. I asked if you found that term in the Catechism. Is it Catholic or does it go beyond the language of Catholicism? In secular parlance, it is* not* a neutral term.

If one has the goal of evangelization, helping people get to Heaven, I cannot imagine using such language. It has not helped Westboro Baptist Church evangelize, if that is what you were going for.

 

[pnewton]

I see two different things being addressed here. Social interaction is not Holy Communion and visa versa. Jesus eating with sinners was social interaction. A family having dinner with a son is social interaction. Holy Communion has different standards. Some of the back in forth is rooted in one side addressing the social need to welcome all sinners and the role of Holy Communion in the sacramental life of the Church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Are you sure about that?

Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is **easy and My burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30
**

Jim

 

[ProVobis]

I see two different things being addressed here. Social interaction is not Holy Communion and visa versa. Jesus eating with sinners was social interaction. A family having dinner with a son is social interaction. Holy Communion has different standards. Some of the back in forth is rooted in one side addressing the social need to welcome all sinners and the role of Holy Communion in the sacramental life of the Church.

That’s a good way of putting it. That’s why I suggested the Polish et al opłatek tradition be extended to everyone before or after Mass.

 

[signit]

My family Christmas dinners are hosted by a couple “shacking up”. We can have rather large gatherings and they have the largest table, the biggest kitchen and dining area. So I’m not supposed to celebrate Christmas with my family? If not sharing a Christmas meal and celebrating the birth of Christ with those I love, even if they live in sin, is what Burke and the CC proposes, sorry I can’t subscribe to that. Life is short. There may be a family member not with us next yr. And I can’t be that righteous. Different strokes though for different folks I suppose.

Years ago, my wife’s grandmother shunned her daughter, because she had divorced and remarried. The mother never allowed her daughter and husband into her home right through to her own death. The daughter’s 2nd marriage lasted over 45 years before she died.

The grandmother lost all those years with her daughter, because the parish priests at that time told her it would be sinful to condone the second marriage by allowing them into her home.

Absolutely with this.

You only have so many family gatherings in a lifetime. Sooner or later one or the other relative isn’t with us anymore (as stated above); the kids my age grow up and move far away; so you should treasure the moments.

And our family gatherings always included my aunt who was divorced and my uncle the alcoholic. When we kids were younger we were shielded from these issues; when we got a little older the situations were explained to us. Of course seeing the aunt or uncle there wasn’t going to encourage us to do what they did.

In the case of the gay couple it would seem acceptable to invite them, then explain to the younger members of the family, if and when appropriate, “They’re not Catholics,” “They don’t believe what we believe,” “We believe this . . .”

 

[Sy_Noe]

Reading over some comments from other Catholics on these forums is rather discouraging.

In this example I would ask other Catholics if they’d be welcoming of a family member and their ‘partner’ if they were openly engaged in an adulterous relationship. Both instances the person is publicly involved in mortal sin.

The correct answer in both cases is the parent should state to the child that they are welcome to visit only when they cease with their mortal sin. Otherwise they are not welcome. This avoids the problem of scandalizing other family members and friends.

Hmm… a reverse situation… my family’s Christmas dinner is always hosted by an unmarried couple at their larger home. I have a puny apt with a miniscule kitchen, only a 4-chair table, and my dishwasher is broken. What can say it’s nice enough but I’m not the wealthiest dude on the planet. They invite and welcome me. And I joyfully take a side dish and homemade dessert & go celebrate Christmas with them and the rest of my family. One of the hosts usually leads us in saying Catholic grace before our meal. You know the one we’re all probably familiar with. Occasionally one of the kids who attend a non Catholic Christian denomination has done the honor. Gifts are exchanged just as the Wisemen brought gifts to the baby Jesus.

WWJD? Not a doubt in my mind I believe He wants me to go. Afterall that’s where my family’s Christmas dinner to celebrate love and His birth is! We don’t get to chose our families and how other family members with free will choose to live. I recall one yr mentioning I went to Christmas Eve Mass and one of the 20-somethings (unrelated to me, a daughter of the male in the shacking up heterosexual relationship from a previous marriage) publicly said she remembered growing up when attending Mass was important to them but isn’t anymore.

So everyone but me should be excluded because they didn’t attend Christmas Mass and I should definitely be excluded for my own planks in my eye and then none of my family would be together for Christmas, a time when we celebrate the birth of our Savior Jesus Christ? Really is that going to be the position of the Catholic Church now if Cardinal Burke gets his way? Sorry but shunning family at Christmas is something that makes no sense me. And something as a Christian I could never buy into. For me what’s discouraging is to read the comments of those Catholics advocating for this. But I deeply appreciate those that are not.

Sorry to rant but this whole concept of excluding family from sharing a Christmas meal is so foreign to me. I just can’t wrap my head around it.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Absolutely with this.

You only have so many family gatherings in a lifetime. Sooner or later one or the other relative isn’t with us anymore (as stated above); the kids my age grow up and move far away; so you should treasure the moments.

And our family gatherings always included my aunt who was divorced and my uncle the alcoholic. When we kids were younger we were shielded from these issues; when we got a little older the situations were explained to us. Of course seeing the aunt or uncle there wasn’t going to encourage us to do what they did.

In the case of the gay couple it would seem acceptable to invite them, then explain to the younger members of the family, if and when appropriate, “They’re not Catholics,” “They don’t believe what we believe,” “We believe this . . .”

Thank you! When I was growing up one of our annual family holiday gatherings included an uncle who when sober had a heart of gold. But he drank alcohol a lot. I don’t drink.

 

[Sy_Noe]

And this likely means you will cease to see your child any longer, and will no longer be an influence in his life.

As a parent, I would say the correct answer is “we love you anyway even if we believe you shouldn’t be doing what you’re doing. Would you like some more roast beef?”

I’m not without sin and perfect but yes please. But since my dishwasher is broken at my house do I have to do the dishes?

 

[signit]

Thank you! When I was growing up one of our annual family holiday gatherings included an uncle who when sober had a heart of gold. But he drank alcohol a lot. I don’t drink.

You know, my alcoholic uncle was the nicest guy in the world, too; he was wonderful to us kids and a prominent leader in the community.

Certainly having him at the events was not an encouragement for us to grow up and become alcoholics.