Cardinal Dolan: Obama's Same-Sex Marriage Support Undermines Society

[blueadept]

I agree with Cardinal Dolan’s criticism of same-sex marriage, although I have ‘evolved’ to the point of accepting civil unions.
…
At the same time, I also understand that most of those who favor same-sex marriage, certainly among Christians, see it as an expression of justice and equality, and even Christian love.
…
Just some thoughts to toss into the hopper.

Permit me to throw a few more thoughts into the hopper…

While I had no problem standing on a street corner and support Prop 8 in defining what a marriage is, I did so in understanding that the proposition would not take away any rights that civil unions had that existed. There is a difference between a ‘civil’ marriage and a ‘sacramental’ marriage. There should be justice and equality in ‘civil’ marriages (unions). The problem is that our young adult children are seeing the inequalities that same-sex couples are dealing with that would go away if they could actually marry. What the kids believe is that this issue is the new discrimination issue in today’s time. So while I can get them to buy into the Pro-life stance of the church (even a good understanding of contraceptives), the youth is not buying the message in regards to same-sex unions that comes from the church and they are failing to see how SSM are hurting heterosexual marriages.

Since my wife was a Mormon, my marriage was never considered ‘sacramental.’ In addressing this issue, I believe the RCC will need to start stressing the differences between a “Civil” marriage versus a “Sacramental” marriage and how to actually live a sacramental marriage as I believe Jesus would want us to.

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s (civil marriages) and Give to God what is God’s (sacramental marriages).

 

[irishpatrick]

Lisa, you may have that opinion, but I am a faithful Catholic and a Democrat, even a member of Democrats for Life. Not all of us agree with Obama et al. Sadly, there is no one we Catholic Democrats can in good conscience vote for in November.

In your case you are placing faith above politics–that is laudable, yet it is not very common with people who say they are Catholic Democrats.

 

[mary_bobo]

Lisa, you may have that opinion, but I am a faithful Catholic and a Democrat, even a member of Democrats for Life. Not all of us agree with Obama et al. Sadly, there is no one we Catholic Democrats can in good conscience vote for in November.

I know that is hard to say. God bless.

 

[mary_bobo]

I don’t see marriage as political.

The church is speaking out on opinions. Since when are we not free to disagree with someone?

You think the church’s stand on this is an OPINION?

 

[blueadept]

Lisa, you may have that opinion, but I am a faithful Catholic and a Democrat, even a member of Democrats for Life. Not all of us agree with Obama et al. Sadly, there is no one we Catholic Democrats can in good conscience vote for in November.

While I realize that there are ‘Democrats for Life,’ you have been drowned out by NOW, the Pro-Choicers, and supporters of Planned Parenthood and I do not foresee you reclaiming a voice in that party unfortunately.

It is sad that being a Pro-Life Democrat has become a term that’s an oxymoron. My girls will be voting for the first time this upcoming election. I’ve had many family members approach them and explain to them the importance of giving women the chance to choose for themselves what they do with their body and that’s what Democrats stand up for. What is amusing that I know they’ve never attended a Pro-life function with my girls and how passionate they happen to be for the pro-life movement.

 

[irishpatrick]

While I realize that there are ‘Democrats for Life,’ you have been drowned out by NOW, the Pro-Choicers, and supporters of Planned Parenthood and I do not foresee you reclaiming a voice in that party unfortunately.

It is sad that being a Pro-Life Democrat has become a term that’s an oxymoron. My girls will be voting for the first time this upcoming election. I’ve had many family members approach them and explain to them the importance of giving women the chance to choose for themselves what they do with their body and that’s what Democrats stand up for. What is amusing that I know they’ve never attended a Pro-life function with my girls and how passionate they happen to be for the pro-life movement.

Republicans also stand for women doing what they want with their own bodies, it is a myth that they do not feel that way. However, the difference between the two is that Republicans believe that once a woman is pregnant, they are no longer just one body, they are at least two separate person’s–and the flourishing baby in the womb might very well be a female who has the right to grow to adulthood and to also choose to do what they want with their own body. It seems an obvious scientific fact that a baby inside a mother is a separate person.

 

[blueadept]

Republicans also stand for women doing what they want with their own bodies, it is a myth that they do not feel that way. However, the difference between the two is that Republicans believe that once a woman is pregnant, they are no longer just one body, they are at least two separate person’s–and the flourishing baby in the womb might very well be a female who has the right to grow to adulthood and to also choose to do what they want with their own body. It seems an obvious scientific fact that a baby inside a mother is a separate person.

I agree. It wasn’t me that gave the definition but it seems to be a common definition used to describe the differences of the two political parties. The relative didn’t sell the point very well. My girls sees it that the baby inside a mother is a separate person.

 

[KCT]

You think the church’s stand on this is an OPINION?

No, no, no … the Church is disagreeing w/ the President’s opinion.

The Church is not attacking a person (Obama) as someone mentioned, but is against that person’s opinions. (or political ideology)

I have never met President Obama and do my best to respect him because he is made in the image and likeness of God. What I disagree with are his opinions and politics.

Some would consider me judgemental, but that’s because, IMO, some people have confused ‘judging’ with ‘disagreeing’. (as in, if I disagree with your opinion I must be judging you…)

 

[irishpatrick]

I agree. It wasn’t me that gave the definition but it seems to be a common definition used to describe the differences of the two political parties. The relative didn’t sell the point very well. My girls sees it that the baby inside a mother is a separate person.

Awesome. We need many more young people like your girls.

 

[LisaA]

Lisa, you may have that opinion, but I am a faithful Catholic and a Democrat, even a member of Democrats for Life. Not all of us agree with Obama et al. Sadly, there is no one we Catholic Democrats can in good conscience vote for in November.

Rich I was talking more of the “Catholic” Democrats in politics. I know there are many faithful Catholics who are also Democrats and would love to have a choice to vote for a Democrat who isn’t bound and shackled by the abortion/gay rights juggernaut.

The politicians seem to pick being part of the Democrat fold over their faith. There is simply no way to reconcile the words of Pelosi, Biden, and Sebelius with the Catholic faith. They are worshipping a false god sadly. I do fear for their souls,especially Sebelius. Pelosi and Biden just blather and lead people astray. But Sebelius has been a bulwark against any dimunition of abortion rights. Her history is replete with the deaths of unborn babies.

BTW I was raised by two Democrats and was a registered Democrat when i first voted. But as Zell Miller said, I didn’t leave the party, the party left me.

Lisa

 

[fix]

Permit me to throw a few more thoughts into the hopper…

While I had no problem standing on a street corner and support Prop 8 in defining what a marriage is, I did so in understanding that the proposition would not take away any rights that civil unions had that existed. There is a difference between a ‘civil’ marriage and a ‘sacramental’ marriage. There should be justice and equality in ‘civil’ marriages (unions). The problem is that our young adult children are seeing the inequalities that same-sex couples are dealing with that would go away if they could actually marry. What the kids believe is that this issue is the new discrimination issue in today’s time. So while I can get them to buy into the Pro-life stance of the church (even a good understanding of contraceptives), the youth is not buying the message in regards to same-sex unions that comes from the church and they are failing to see how SSM are hurting heterosexual marriages.

Since my wife was a Mormon, my marriage was never considered ‘sacramental.’ In addressing this issue, I believe the RCC will need to start stressing the differences between a “Civil” marriage versus a “Sacramental” marriage and how to actually live a sacramental marriage as I believe Jesus would want us to.

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s (civil marriages) and Give to God what is God’s (sacramental marriages).

It is not about sacramental marriage. The Church is not interested in only Catholics. There are no “rights” at stake here. Anyone who desires to secure certain legal opportunities can do so right now without recourse to so-called civil unions.

 

[LisaA]

Permit me to throw a few more thoughts into the hopper…

The problem is that our young adult children are seeing the inequalities that same-sex couples are dealing with that would go away if they could actually marry. What the kids believe is that this issue is the new discrimination issue in today’s time. So while I can get them to buy into the Pro-life stance of the church (even a good understanding of contraceptives), **the youth is not buying the message in regards to same-sex unions that comes from the church and they are failing to see how SSM are hurting heterosexual marriages. **

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s (civil marriages) and Give to God what is God’s (sacramental marriages).

Note I bolded the sentence that I find most telling. Of course young people don’t buy the objection to restricting marriage to a man and a woman when they base it on “failing to see how SSM hurts heterosexual marriage.”

So help them understand that it’s not about an individual couple whom they may know and empathize with but about the best structure for society as a whole. You could object to literally any law or rule based on the idea “it doesn’t hurt me (as an individual).” The “it’s all about me” attitude is a child’s perspective. Society benefits in numerous ways from traditional male/female marriage and we cannot extrapolate that same benefit to male/male or female/female unions unless we are willing to buy into the ridiculous assumption that men and women are simply interchangable cogs in a wheel. Take out a man, put in a woman or vice versa…the relationship is the same? No it’s not.

Marrige DOES discriminate and not simply in the structure (male/female). There are restrictions in every state regarding age, marital status, capacity to contract, relationship to intended spouse etc. It is no more “discrimination” to object to formalizing male male or female female unions than object to incest, multiple husbands/wives, group marriage, marriage to someone without capacity to contract. You know it’s also discrimination that six year olds can’t get driver’s licenses. Discrimination is not always perjorative. Sometimes these restrictions protect society and that is more important than some individuals feelings.

I hope you read more information on same sex “marriage” and the reason the Church objects to it as well as the potential for societal destruction. It sounds like your girls are intelligent and thoughtful and I believe they will be able to discriminate between feel good ideas and something with a rational, emotional and spiritual basis.

Lisa

 

[blueadept]

It is not about sacramental marriage. The Church is not interested in only Catholics. There are no “rights” at stake here. Anyone who desires to secure certain legal opportunities can do so right now without recourse to so-called civil unions.

I was under this opinion as well but I’ve seen the injustices (and links) that same-sex couples have endured. One would think that the untimely death of someone in a same-sex union would have the same benefits as heterosexual couples. This isn’t the case and these type of stories are flooding facebook and youtube which our youth is watching.

We can say they have the same civil rights legally, but this is not what our young adults actually believe anymore which is not a good thing. So while I appreciate that the Church is fighting for ALL marriages, I’m simply pointing out that we are losing the battle in the US AND with our youth. We have a defensible Catholic position in defending what a true sacramental marriage really is. I’m not sure losing our youth over a Civil matter is worth it though.

 

[blueadept]

Marrige DOES discriminate and not simply in the structure (male/female). There are restrictions in every state regarding age, marital status, capacity to contract, relationship to intended spouse etc. It is no more “discrimination” to object to formalizing male male or female female unions than object to incest, multiple husbands/wives, group marriage, marriage to someone without capacity to contract. You know it’s also discrimination that six year olds can’t get driver’s licenses. Discrimination is not always perjorative. Sometimes these restrictions protect society and that is more important than some individuals feelings.

I hope you read more information on same sex “marriage” and the reason the Church objects to it as well as the potential for societal destruction. It sounds like your girls are intelligent and thoughtful and I believe they will be able to discriminate between feel good ideas and something with a rational, emotional and spiritual basis.

Lisa

Thanks for the post, I enjoyed it. You should see all the Youtube and Facebook links that demonstrate the legal rights discrimination that our youth constantly see in today’s media that their same-sex friends are dealing with due to this issue. So while I’ve done my best in explaining on the reasons the Church objects, the youth of today is viewing this like today’s Civil Rights Movement.

In talking with youth ministers, they all FIRMLY bang the drum of the church on this issue. In dealing with the youth, they FIRMLY believe everything that is being taught but DEFINITELY tune out the ministers on this one issue.

I’m just stating what the environment is for Catholic educators.

 

[LisaA]

Thanks for the post, I enjoyed it. You should see all the Youtube and Facebook links that demonstrate the legal rights discrimination that our youth constantly see in today’s media. So while I’ve done my best in explaining on the reasons the Church objects, the youth of today is viewing this like today’s Civil Rights Movement.

In talking with youth ministers, they all FIRMLY bang the drum of the church on this issue. In dealing with the youth, they FIRMLY believe everything that is being taught but DEFINITELY tune out the ministers on this one issue.

I’m just stating what the environment is for Catholic educators.

Good point about the social media. We are clearly behind in using those tactics and unfortunately people tend to empathize with a sob story and never think about the unintended consequences.

It’s amazing how the gay agenda, although a tiny minority, has grabbed the media far in excess of either their numbers or their legitimate gripes. If you have a lot of contact with gays, you will realize that comparing gay marriage to racial civil rights is like comparing high tide to a tsunami. Gays were never brought to America in shackles, enslaved, relegated to the back of the bus or black only areas. All blacks are born black and remain black all their lives. With a few exceptions, it is pretty obvious whether or not one is black. Not so with homosexuals who seem to self identify overwhelmingly with their sexual activities versus any other qualities. OTOH if one doesn’t make an issue of being homosexual, most of us are happy NOT to know about personal sexual activities. Further being homosexual is not always a lifelong status, IOW one is not born homosexual and thus destined to that status for life. I’ve known more than a few who have moved in and out and back into a homosexual life. I’ve never known a black to turn white.

I’m actually amazed how easily blacks are allowing homosexuals to take on their hard fought mantle. At any rate you’re right, I guess we need to do YouTube and Facebook. The ProLife community is using both to great effect. Traditional marriage just doesn’t have the same kind of support.

Lisa

 

[KCT]

We can say they have the same civil rights legally, but this is not what our young adults actually believe anymore which is not a good thing. So while I appreciate that the Church is fighting for ALL marriages, I’m simply pointing out that we are losing the battle in the US AND with our youth. We have a defensible Catholic position in defending what a true sacramental marriage really is. I’m not sure losing our youth over a Civil matter is worth it though.

Our youth, and others, don’t understand that it isn’t just about same sex marriage. It’s about the government thinking it has the authority to define marriage. If the government can change the definition to include 2 men, why stop at 2? Why not redefine it to include 2 men and 1 woman? Or any other combo for that matter?

I wish the Church would be clearer that government control is at the heart of some of these issues. I think youth might get behind fighting that. (maybe…)

In at least some of his interviews, Cardinal Dolan has addressed this.

Lots of local churches here in MD have been collecting signatures for the referendum. It’s great, but in hindsight, I think we lost a teaching moment. I don’t think the average person understands the full consequences. Lots probably signed the petitions out of an “ick” factor. “Ick, gay marriages!” It’s deeper than that.

 

[Holly3278]

Cardinal Dolan is right. Same-sex “marriage” does undermine society. It weakens society. We should not allow it under any circumstances. We should not allow “civil unions” for gays or “gay marriages” for gays.

 

[blueadept]

OTOH if one doesn’t make an issue of being homosexual, most of us are happy NOT to know about personal sexual activities.

You need to catch up on the present times. The days of 'Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell" are officially dead. I remember seeing video of a burly American soldier coming home from Iraq and jumping into the arms of his partner and planting one on him. The youth, in general, didn’t have an issue with this. I’m sure the older generation has a different opinion though.

Further being homosexual is not always a lifelong status, IOW one is not born homosexual and thus destined to that status for life. I’ve known more than a few who have moved in and out and back into a homosexual life. I’ve never known a black to turn white.

It’s time to catch up with the youth’s present thought that they believe you are born that way and they are fine with it and encourage their gay friends to be open about it. In their eyes, it’s better than them committing suicide. I knew a handful of youth in the parish who were gay that lived honorable lives. I just questioned if their parents knew.

At any rate you’re right, I guess we need to do YouTube and Facebook. The ProLife community is using both to great effect. Traditional marriage just doesn’t have the same kind of support.

That’s going to be an uphill battle to get traditional marriage up to this level since the youth are not buying into it. You can speak the truth all you want but it’s falling onto deaf ears unfortunately.

 

[LisaA]

You need to catch up on the present times. The days of 'Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell" are officially dead. I remember seeing video of a burly American soldier coming home from Iraq and jumping into the arms of his partner and planting one on him. The youth, in general, didn’t have an issue with this. I’m sure the older generation has a different opinion though.

It’s time to catch up with the youth’s present thought that they believe you are born that way and they are fine with it and encourage their gay friends to be open about it. In their eyes, it’s better than them committing suicide. I knew a handful of youth in the parish who were gay that lived honorable lives. I just questioned if their parents knew.

That’s going to be an uphill battle to get traditional marriage up to this level since the youth are not buying into it. You can speak the truth all you want but it’s falling onto deaf ears unfortunately.

You seem to believe that nothing can be done. If the youth believe the “touchy feely” approach to homosexual marriage, it’s because someone mis-informed them. You have children, why don’t you arm yourself with some good information and the many strong arguments in favor of homosexual “marriage.”

Ask them:

Homosexual marriage is a completely new idea. Do you think all of the religious and secular leaders of the past were either ignorant or bigoted? Was Jesus bigoted? How about the Buddha? Isaiah? Jeremiah? Moses? Abraham Lincoln? Thomas Jefferson?
If this is such a great plan, why has the human race survived all this time without homosexual marriage?

Do you think men and women are the same? Do you think a male/male or female female relationship is the same? Or the same as a male female relationship? Are there inherent differences? Why would you use the same term for all human relationships? Marriage has to have a meaning or it holds no significance.

What is the limiting factor? If it’s only about who you love what’s to stop anyone from demanding marriage equality for a group? For close relatives? For a pairing of adult and child?

Do you know about other social experiments and the unintended consequences? No fault divorce was supposed to be a positive change for families, for children, for society. How did that work out?

What about the sexual revolution? Huge societal change that was supposed to promote equality among the sexes and freedom…how’s that working out?

You say your daughters are already pro-life. Well that’s because you told them the truth about abortion. Tell them the truth about homosexual “marriage.”

There is a REASON that we have gone thousands and thousands of years without this experiment. It’s not going to be a positive force for society.

Lisa

 

[fix]

I was under this opinion as well but I’ve seen the injustices (and links) that same-sex couples have endured. One would think that the untimely death of someone in a same-sex union would have the same benefits as heterosexual couples. This isn’t the case and these type of stories are flooding facebook and youtube which our youth is watching.

All they have to do is see a lawyer just like everyone else does for various reasons.

We can say they have the same civil rights legally, but this is not what our young adults actually believe anymore which is not a good thing. So while I appreciate that the Church is fighting for ALL marriages, I’m simply pointing out that we are losing the battle in the US AND with our youth. We have a defensible Catholic position in defending what a true sacramental marriage really is. I’m not sure losing our youth over a Civil matter is worth it though.

Why would we lose our youth? I am certain they are capable of grasping this issue just as much as the non youth. Supporting so called civil unions is really just supporting faux marriages. Simply changing what we call some object does not change the object.