Here is the full transcript:
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Earlier this week, I sat down with Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the archbishop of New York, to talk about the intersection of religion and politics on this Easter/Passover weekend. And I began by pointing out a disturbing trend, that it seems more people are killing or dying in the name of God than at any time in recent memory.
(BEGIN TAPE)
CARDINAL DOLAN:
Well, I say you’re right. And I do think it’s worse than it has been in centuries. And I think to me, that only says we need Easter more than ever. Passover and Easter are all about the good’s triumph over bad, life’s triumph over death. And do we ever need that. It is an amazingly tragic and poignant scandal that some would claim to use religion in the name of these atrocities.
My boss, Pope Francis, has been extraordinarily articulate in reminding us that anyone who claims to use religion as a cause of hatred and division and bloodshed is perverting the role of religion. Religion, by definition, is about bringing people together, affirming. It’s about life. It’s about friendship. It’s about reconciliation. To use religion for anything different than that is, simply put, a perversion. And, so, religious people are suffering in numbers that we’re not used to. And often, who are the perpetrators? People who claim to be acting on behalf of another–
CHUCK TODD:
And they have deep faith.
CARDINAL DOLAN:
They have a passion.
CHUCK TODD:
In some ways scarily so. I don’t know. Is it fate? Is it passion?
CARDINAL DOLAN:
Well, they have strong conviction. Whether it’s consonant with the faith they profess, that we know is not true. I mean, even especially with the Islamic fanatics, temperate voices of Islam, and thanks be to God there are many, would remind them that they are not acting loyal to the teachings of the Koran. What do we say, though, Chuck when we know from the human experience, not just religion, that most battles, most bloodshed, is caused by things that we feel passionate about?
CHUCK TODD:
What did you think of President Obama at the National Prayer Breakfast when he said this? “Unless we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”
CARDINAL DOLAN:
I know there were some people that might’ve thought that his remarks were off the mark. I would simply say as an historian and as a believer, sometimes it’s not all that bad to remind ourselves that we are not free from sin, either.
CHUCK TODD:
You saw it as appropriate?
CARDINAL DOLAN:
I mean, as a leader to say that at that time, whether that was appropriate or not. But I wouldn’t say he was wrong.
CHUCK TODD:
This religious freedom, the debate we’re having about religious freedom laws, and you have religious liberty. What does that mean? What should that mean? And do you think people are perverting the definition?
CARDINAL DOLAN:
No. I welcome the fact that the question about religious liberty is in the forefront. We need that. We didn’t put it there. We believers didn’t put it there. The founders of our nation did. “We have to make sure that the rights and the ability to publicly exercise one’s religion is also balanced with another good, namely, the rights of people not to be discriminated against.” Boy, that’s a delicate balance. I’m grateful that it’s in the public eye. Whenever you talk, Chuck, about a balance, which our constitution is a matter of balance, we have to make sure that we keep that balance together.
CHUCK TODD:
It’s tough to balance religious conviction, though.
CARDINAL DOLAN:
It’s tough to balance religious conviction. But it’s easier to ignore religious freedom than it is today the more popular issues, all right. So, in a way, I appreciate the fact that we have political leaders like Governor Pence who are saying, “Whoa. Wait a minute. Without questioning of the rights of the gay community, we also have to make sure that the rights of the religious community are protected.” I just wish we could do that in a temperate, civil way instead of screaming at each other.
CHUCK TODD:
With Passover and Easter so close together, is there something extra significant about it?
CARDINAL DOLAN:
It is. It kind of gives it an added wallop. And it gives us some more credibility and more reason to celebrate. And it reminds us that it’s all about the same thing. It’s all about winter ending and spring beginning, the death of winter behind us and the new life of spring ahead of us, and that God is a god of spring, not winter, and that life has always conquered death. Hope is going to conquer despair.
Good is going to conquer bad. That’s what Passover is all about. That’s what Easter is all about. That’s what Jesus was all about. That’s what Moses was all about. I don’t know about you. You spend your life, Chuck, covering the world. I think we need that message more than ever.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I don’t know any better way to end this interview than with that, sir.
CARDINAL DOLAN:
Happy Easter. Happy Passover.
CHUCK TODD:
Cardinal Dolan, it’s an honor, sir.
CARDINAL DOLAN:
Good to be with you, Chuck. The honor is mine. Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, easily one of the most optimistic people I’ve ever met. Okay, put me in, Coach. I’m ready to play today. Opening Day is tomorrow. Of course, opening night’s tonight. And the new baseball commissioner Rob Manfred, is on deck on Meet the Press.
nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-april-5-2015-n336061