Cardinal Dolan Visits New York Mosque

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I’ve not yet read all 11 pages of this thread, but from the first 3 or 4 pages, the question occurs: how many of the catholic posters who obviously disagreed with Cardinal Dolan’s comments have read Nostra Aetate?
It would seem obvious to me even before I read afore-mentioned document that the God of the Islamic faith was more or less an imperfect interpretation of what we call the God The Father, (obviously Islam doesn’t accept the son, and dont quote me, but I think that Islam confuses the holy spirit and the archangel Gabriel. - correct me on this last fact if I’m wrong).
So contrary to some of the comments on here, Cardinal Dolan wasn’t wrong, but he was merely trying (perhaps in the spirit of Vatican II) to find and underline the commonalities between Catholicism and Islam, rather than lecture them on the differences, which as a guest at the mosque would have been a rude, Un-charitable thing for him to do.
Im curious wether the posters on here agree or not that God The Father (as revealed to the Hebrews by the name Yahweh) is the same God as Allah?
If the answer to that is yes, then is the name Allah merely a distorted pronunciation/translation from hebrew into arabic of the title El/Elohe /Eloha/Elah?

God bless.

Paul

pray for peace, and for the recent pro-life legal successes in America to grow and spread and reach this far-away land.
 
BlaconPaul said:
Im curious wether the posters on here agree or not that God The Father (as revealed to the Hebrews by the name Yahweh) is the same God as Allah?
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No and impossible. God cannot contradict Himself. If He could, then He would not be God. The name Allah is just that, a name. There can be a thousand Peters in the world but yet they are all different. Christians in the Middle East worship the Trinitarian God using Allah as we would use the word “God”. Muslims just happen to call the god they worship by the same “name”, Allah.

God revealed himself to mankind in the OT and then more fully in the NT. As the Church teaches, the NT is hidden in the Old and the OT is revealed in the New.

Islam contradicts previously given divine revelation. If the Christian God was behind Islam, then we would have some serious theological hurdles to jump through.
 
shocktrooper said:
No and impossible. God cannot contradict Himself. If He could, then He would not be God. The name Allah is just that, a name. There can be a thousand Peters in the world but yet they are all different. Christians in the Middle East worship the Trinitarian God using Allah as we would use the word “God”. Muslims just happen to call the god they worship by the same “name”, Allah.

The Koran contains versions of some OT books. Their idea of Allah is the same Abrahamic God that Jews and Christians believed in ie Supreme Being. However, their understanding of God/Allah is different from Christians as we believe in the Trinity and they as well as Jews do not. In the Acts, Paul told the Greeks the Unknown God they were worshiping is in fact the One True God even though they were not fully aware of who this God is. Who am I to tell someone else that their God is not the same God as mine? Do I want the Jews to tell me that my God is not the same God as the one they are worshiping?

Although the intent are the same for Jews, Christians, Muslims in worshiping God, the practices and justification varies considerably. Throughout history people have use religion to further their own interests, rightly or wrongly in the name of God. The actions are sometimes wrong. Examples, Catholics/Protestants killing each other, justifying slavery, justifying abortion, terrorist killings. Doing things in the name of God and screaming out loud God is Great does not mean it is always God-sanctioned either. I think more lives are lost through abortion than through terrorist acts.

On a side note, in my country, the Muslims attempted to “copyright” the word Allah for Islamic use only. They tried to prevent distribution of Bibles which contain the word Allah when translated to the local language saying that would confuse the Muslims. The authorities just ignored the historical fact that the word Allah predates Islam and has been in use in Arabic language Bibles before Islam. There are also some Muslims who think that the Christian God is not the Muslim God too.
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shocktrooper said:
Islam contradicts previously given divine revelation. If the Christian God was behind Islam, then we would have some serious theological hurdles to jump through.
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This is a syllogism I can agree with. I do not believe God is “behind” Islam in that he has inspired the Koran, or Mohammed was his prophet. That is not what the Church means though when it says we worship the same God. Consider the idea of the Greek’s “Unknown God”. Now this is not something that was divinely inspired with any sort of writing or divine prophet. Yet this worship represented a yearning God had written in the hearts of all men. Therefore, they could be worshiping God (as was the case according to St. Paul) in an absence of divine revelation or acceptance of a Trinity.
 
ericc said:
In the Acts, Paul told the Greeks the Unknown God they were worshiping is in fact the One True God even though they were not fully aware of who this God is.
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St. Paul acknowledge their “unknown god” and went on to explain Him to them. He was bringing them the revelation he once received. The religion of Islam rejects the God St. Paul reveals. The situation is very different.
ericc said:
Who am I to tell someone else that their God is not the same God as mine?
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Do you hold this same position for those that worship Satan?
ericc said:
Although the intent are the same for Jews, Christians, Muslims in worshiping God, the practices and justification varies considerably.
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We are not discussing intent here. Intent has nothing to do with this.

We can’t base Islam and how and who Muslims worship off our own thoughts and doctrine. Since Muslims worship Allah based off the “divine revelation” that Allah gave them, then we must judge Islam by her authoritative teachings. SirStephen has done a good job with making this point. Allah specifically revealed himself as a god with no son, a direct repudiation of the revelation God already gave, not only to Christians, but to the whole world. This is not a both/and scenario. This is an either/or.

There is a big difference in saying every monotheistic religion naturally directs their worship to One God because there is really only one true God, and saying they all worship the same God in a supernatural way, with proper faith, according to authentic divine revelation.

If we all worshiped the same God, then what would be the need for conversions, since God can be pleased by different forms of worship?

The truth is that God desires and commands that mankind worships Him in the way he has revealed to us via the Catholic Church. Those that willfully and knowingly reject this worship (Jews and Muslims and all others) place themselves outside of God’s grace and His way for salvation.

The same people who think we worship the same God are likely the same people who never evangelize Jews and Muslims in any direct, meaningful or personal way. We see the affects of this thought in our evangelization efforts.

God bless.
 
shocktrooper said:
St. There is a big difference in saying every monotheistic religion naturally directs their worship to One God because there is really only one true God, and saying they all worship the same God in a supernatural way, with proper faith, according to authentic divine revelation.

If we all worshiped the same God, then what would be the need for conversions, since God can be pleased by different forms of worship?

The truth is that God desires and commands that mankind worships Him in the way he has revealed to us via the Catholic Church. Those that willfully and knowingly reject this worship (Jews and Muslims and all others) place themselves outside of God’s grace and His way for salvation.

The same people that think we worship the same God are likely the same people that never evangelize Jews and Muslims in any direct, meaningful or personal way. We see the affects of this thought in our evangelization efforts.

God bless.
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👍 A nice overview shock. I woul add being a religion of the 7th century well after Christianity, I find it more in the Gnostic realm.:coffee:

God Bless
onenow1:)
 
shocktrooper said:
Those that willfully and knowingly reject this worship (Jews and Muslims and all others) place themselves outside of God’s grace and His way for salvation
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This is true. The key is understanding the Church’s view on willfully and knowingly rejecting God and how this reflects in invincible ignorance.
 
pnewton said:
This is true. The key is understanding the Church’s view on willfully and knowingly rejecting God and how this reflects in invincible ignorance.
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I agree but LG 16 says: “…But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

My understanding is that “often” means many or more times than not. The invincible ignorant card does not apply to those that don’t seek the truth themselves, even if they are raised in a lie from birth. This is when “reason” becomes the key to how they are judged. A person of the age of reason, that has heard or witnessed the authentic Gospel of Christ, yet chooses not to follow, is culpable in his disbelief or ignorance of God.

I am one that believes (as LG seems to be professing) most Jews and Muslims are very culpable in their ignorance of Jesus Christ and their rejection of Him. I just don’t know many Jews or Muslims these days that claim to have never heard the Christian Gospel. Christ tells us that if we seek, then we shall find. If one truly seeks the truth, then they will die a Catholic, for the grace of God through Christ is sufficient for all who submit to Him.

Would you also agree with this?
 
shocktrooper said:
I agree but LG 16 says: “…But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

My understanding is that “often” means many or more times than not.
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No, I can not agree that we should take “often” in any sort of numerical sense. The Church has no doctrine on such things as how many people are going to Heaven. I think the principle is good. There is such a thing as invincible ignorance, yet as you point out, it might not be very common. I certainly accept that Man has a great capacity for self-deception. However, I think how I feel about, say LDS, or Muslims, or Hinduism. Have I really ever studied each other possible religion fully and weighed it? No. This is not out of self-deception but out of practicality. I have to use an Occam’s razor approach on other philosphies and determine which are worthy of great consideration and which are not.

In the end, the number of the saved are known to God alone. I think we should approach our own salvation with “fear and trembling,” the salvation of others en masse with reliance on God’s mercy and the salvation of those we know with evangelism.

I had a discussion with a priest just two days ago on this topic. I told him that I have come around to think that we truly do not appreciate just how merciful God is. That seems to be the message of the Holy Spirit to this generation through both the Church and the Saints. If God is merciful and loving to the point of dying for us, I do not think we should sell this mercy short and dispair of the salvation of many. For us Catholics though, we never should let our confidence of God’s mercy be an occassion for presumption, either in our personal lives, or our evangalization.
 
pnewton said:
You’re right. That is a good link. Did you note how much the actually agree with each other? They just have a little difference perspective.
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Yes, it was not much of a debate. I did email Mr. Spencer to get his perspective on what we are discussing here. He responded by saying he wrote about this in his most recent book, Not Peace but a Sword, but would send me a PDF if I wrote him back since the machine it was on was not working at the time. I have followed up with him and will share his comments once he shares them with me (if he gives me permission). I plan to also purchase his book to see what he wrote in it. During the debate, he did not challenge Dr. Kreeft when he read from the CCC. This could have been simply done so that the debate would not get sidetracked so early on.
 
shocktrooper said:
I agree but LG 16 says: “…But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

My understanding is that “often” means many or more times than not. The invincible ignorant card does not apply to those that don’t seek the truth themselves, even if they are raised in a lie from birth. This is when “reason” becomes the key to how they are judged. A person of the age of reason, that has heard or witnessed the authentic Gospel of Christ, yet chooses not to follow, is culpable in his disbelief or ignorance of God.

I am one that believes (as LG seems to be professing) most Jews and Muslims are very culpable in their ignorance of Jesus Christ and their rejection of Him. I just don’t know many Jews or Muslims these days that claim to have never heard the Christian Gospel. Christ tells us that if we seek, then we shall find. If one truly seeks the truth, then they will die a Catholic, for the grace of God through Christ is sufficient for all who submit to Him.

Would you also agree with this?
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If you look up the “Richard Cushing Error” (I think) you will find some interesting information on concepts around the idea of the limits of invincible ignorance.
 
Originally Posted by shocktrooper View Post
A good debate that touches on the topic.
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thomasmorecollege.edu/blo…bate-on-islam/
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I have read only pieces of this thread but did listen to the whole debate posted which I thought was excellent as I learned some things.

I love Professor Kreeft yet even though they both agreed on some things, there are many in the church who are not concerned at all. As Professor Kreeft said because some muslims are pious in believe we should embrace them but how is the problem.

I think of catholic schools in Canada and the news article(September 2012) that they would build muslim prayer rooms. According to the article the schools are required to do this if requested.
Earlier this year about 25 students at the southwestern Ontario school, with a student body of about 1,400, submitted a request to the principal for a room for Islamic prayer during lunch period on Fridays…
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“First of all it’s a prayer room, it’s not named after a particular faith,” said Wilma de Rond, director of education for the London District Catholic School Board (LDCSB). “When a request comes from another faith there is no request for us to provide any sort of accommodation for them that in some way impacts our faith.”
Although de Rond dismisses the concern, it has been circulating in the media since news about the second floor prayer room at Mother Teresa Catholic Secondary School broke earlier this month…
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The goal, according to de Rond, is to outfit the room in a way that will satisfy the requirements for the Muslim students while maintaining an atmosphere where other students can use the room. Although no other groups have requested use of the room, it will be available outside the time allocated to the Muslim group.
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catholicregister.org/news/canada/item/15123-muslim-prayer-room-welcomed-at-catholic-school
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This idea that we as catholic should welcome muslims into our schools and be inclusive, yet not draw a boundary on what is OK, is disturbing.
 
gam197 said:
This idea that we as catholic should welcome muslims into our schools and be inclusive, yet not draw a boundary on what is OK, is disturbing.
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I think it should be noted that it is not the school that is calling it a Islamic prayer room. It is a room for prayer that meets the needs of Islamic students. If Catholic schools receive public funding, such accommodations may have to happen. There is nothing in catholic doctrine or practice that prohibits it. It would be like a military chaplain (priest) finding a room for Muslims to pray in, other than a Christian sanctuary.

I do not know how prudent this move was, but it definitely isn’t “wrong”.
 
You may not call it an Islamic prayer room but it certainly is. Most catholic schools are lucky to have rooms for student classes never mind create extra space for prayer rooms. Catholics prayer in any room and usually there is a church, often with a chapel nearby, if students want to pursue more prayer time.

more from article…
“It’s interesting for us to learn about a particular faith so it’s been a good thing for us to be able to have these conversations with the students and their parents and so we are proceeding forward in terms of our understanding of what will occur, how they pray, what they pray for (and) what the words of the prayers will be,” she said. “It’s increasing our own understanding, which is a good thing.”
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Other Catholic boards are sure to receive similar requests, and are also seeing this as an opportunity.
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What do we want to learn. Mr Spencer notes that according to Islam in the final day, Christ will come back, take down the crosses and destroy the Christianity.
 
gam197 said:
You may not call it an Islamic prayer room but it certainly is.
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I do not call it anything. It is the school that does not call it an Islamic prayer room. Mr. Spencer is not relevant in this matter. However, I do not think there is any harm in learning something about Islam and can see some good it it.
 
originally posted by pnewton
I do not call it anything. It is the school that does not call it an Islamic prayer room. Mr. Spencer is not relevant in this matter. However, I do not think there is any harm in learning something about Islam and can see some good it it.
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Semantics

From Article
Earlier this year about 25 students at the southwestern Ontario school, with a student body of about 1,400, submitted a request to the principal for a room for Islamic prayer during lunch period on Fridays…
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The school then built a room. Call it what you want.

My question is are these student allowed to use this room and is it during class time to which I don’t have that answer.

If the" Prophet" Jesus is to come back and destroy churches and Christianity ss predicted by Islam, how then can we include this in our Catholic doctrine?
 
gam197 said:
If the" Prophet" Jesus is to come back and destroy churches and Christianity ss predicted by Islam, how then can we include this in our Catholic doctrine?
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It is not in Catholic doctrine. He isn’t. I would think this would be a given here.
 
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