Cardinal Encourages Catholics, Muslims to Overcome Violence
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Can this Cardinal or anyone else name specific, numerous cases where, in this century, Catholics have perpetrated violence to ‘convert’ people?
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kaid100
Guest
We have to be careful not to be too specific in how we word questions, or we risk tacitly (rather than openly) admitting to wrongs done in the past, undermining the argument. Plenty of Catholics (and other religions) have perpetrated violence to convert people in past centuries. In this Century (which only constitutes ten years so far) there has been plenty of Catholic violence and plenty of violence by other religions, and those of no faith. The distinction is, the Catholic violence in the last ten years has had a message of “I hate you, Protestant” or “I hate you, fellow Catholic, for working with Protestants”. Does that make it better or worse than violence with the intention of conversion? I think it’s just as evil.
Let’s praise this Cardinal for seeking to find common ground, instead of picking holes in him.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I don’t follow at ALL.
Please list these ‘instances’ of Catholic violence over the past ten years.
Please detail how you arrived at the ‘message’ within these alleged instances.
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kaid100
Guest
The details are available on the web:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ira#Return_to_activity
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Continuity_IRA_actions#2000
Certainly there can be no doubt that there was no attempt to convert the victims to Catholicism in these cases.
Again, I will say that I support the cardinal’s comments, and that this sort of rehashing of the past is unhelpful to that. Plenty of people of many different faiths have brought about violence, and it’s always tempting to ignore the violence of those that have beliefs which are -on the surface- similar to our own. Instead, let’s condemn all violence.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Wikipedia?
No.
Can you legitimately document when, within the past ten years, Catholics have flown planes into buildings and murdered 3000 innocent civilians in a foreign nation?
Or used a rusty knife to saw the heads off their screaming victims?
Or raped and murdered thousands in the Sudan and elsewhere?
No.
Can you legitimately document when, within the past ten years, Catholics have flown planes into buildings and murdered 3000 innocent civilians in a foreign nation?
Or used a rusty knife to saw the heads off their screaming victims?
Or raped and murdered thousands in the Sudan and elsewhere?
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kaid100
Guest
Actually, you don’t get to set homework for people that disagree with you, and when they give you the information you need, you don’t get to send it back and ask them to do it again. If you think that the information in the articles I posted is wrong, you are free to research it yourself and change the articles.
I can only guess at the motives behind your questioning this cardinal, but if it is from an angle of “Radical Muslims have done worse things than any Catholic therefore he shouldn’t treat Catholics and Muslims as equally influential on future violence, and therefore equally culpable” then I will say there have been pretty bad things done by radicals of any faith. No I can’t find an example of a Catholic doing every evil thing a Muslim has done (or vice versa) but it doesn’t affect whether one religion or the other is more intrinsically moral or right, since of course every religion considers itself the only correct one by its own standards. I’m not going to be sidetracked from defending a sensible statement by a Cardinal to me attacking Catholics by pointing out evil things more radical Catholics have done, which is the way this conversation seems to be being pushed and which isn’t my intent. In the spirit of keeping this forum clear of personality-based argument, and given that you and I are the only ones to have replied to this topic, this will be my last post to this thread.
I can only guess at the motives behind your questioning this cardinal, but if it is from an angle of “Radical Muslims have done worse things than any Catholic therefore he shouldn’t treat Catholics and Muslims as equally influential on future violence, and therefore equally culpable” then I will say there have been pretty bad things done by radicals of any faith. No I can’t find an example of a Catholic doing every evil thing a Muslim has done (or vice versa) but it doesn’t affect whether one religion or the other is more intrinsically moral or right, since of course every religion considers itself the only correct one by its own standards. I’m not going to be sidetracked from defending a sensible statement by a Cardinal to me attacking Catholics by pointing out evil things more radical Catholics have done, which is the way this conversation seems to be being pushed and which isn’t my intent. In the spirit of keeping this forum clear of personality-based argument, and given that you and I are the only ones to have replied to this topic, this will be my last post to this thread.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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I do not recognize Wiki as a reliable source for anything, since articles can be written and edited by anyone with a keyboard.
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Holly3278
Guest
No offense but what are you talking about? I have not seen a single Catholic who acts or speaks as though they hate Protestants. On the contrary, most Catholics I know seem to love Protestants as our separated brethren. Yes, we disagree with many of Protestantism’s doctrines but that does not mean that we hate Protestants.
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Tsuwano
Guest
No, but what does this matter? The Cardinal is encouraging Catholics and Muslims to work together to overcome violence between people of different faiths. Is this somehow ignoble or an unworthy cause for the Cardinal to work for?
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
On first impression, with just reading the part in the OP article saying the Cardinal is encouraging Catholics and Muslims to work together in overcoming violence among followers of different religions, I thought that the Cardinal’s message might be a groveling posture, a statement equating the wrongs by Catholics with the wrongs by Muslims, from the Crusades to the present, with which I do not find equivalence. But then, I decided that it could be a wrong impression on my part, so I called up the official letter of Cardinal Tauran from the Vatican site. See here.
It is titled VATICAN MESSAGE TO MUSLIMS FOR RAMADAN. The Cardinal emphasizes that he is sending the goodwill of Christians, who are spiritually close to Muslims during these days. The letter is short, just 6 paragraphs. Notable is the first sentence “'Id Al-Fitr, which concludes Ramadan, presents, once again, a favorable occasion to convey to you the heartfelt wishes of serenity and joy on behalf of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue.”
It is in line with the ongoing Catholic-Muslim dialogue, which had been ongoing in phases, especially after the Regensburg papal address controversy in September 2006. If you read the letter, you would find it to have the right tone and the right words, conciliatory, as expected.
Not that anybody is asking,
but I’m okay with it. I agree that we Catholics should wholeheartedly support the Vatican in its continuing message of peace to the Muslims as their holy month concludes.
I think the author in the OP linked article could have used a better header than Cardinal encourages Catholics, Muslims to overcome violence.
But this quickness to self-flagellate by Catholics in this forum really astonishes me. I’m all for self-examination, repentance and rectification for actual wrongs. In all respect, I think we should be careful not to own sins Catholics did not commit, not in the name of the faith. I fail to see the attribution made to ‘Catholic’ hatred against the Protestants during the Troubles, as an example raised here. Unless historical accounts are wrong, it was an ethno-political feud in Northern Ireland that spilled out to England and parts of Europe.
It is titled VATICAN MESSAGE TO MUSLIMS FOR RAMADAN. The Cardinal emphasizes that he is sending the goodwill of Christians, who are spiritually close to Muslims during these days. The letter is short, just 6 paragraphs. Notable is the first sentence “'Id Al-Fitr, which concludes Ramadan, presents, once again, a favorable occasion to convey to you the heartfelt wishes of serenity and joy on behalf of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue.”
It is in line with the ongoing Catholic-Muslim dialogue, which had been ongoing in phases, especially after the Regensburg papal address controversy in September 2006. If you read the letter, you would find it to have the right tone and the right words, conciliatory, as expected.
Not that anybody is asking,
but I’m okay with it. I agree that we Catholics should wholeheartedly support the Vatican in its continuing message of peace to the Muslims as their holy month concludes.I think the author in the OP linked article could have used a better header than Cardinal encourages Catholics, Muslims to overcome violence.
But this quickness to self-flagellate by Catholics in this forum really astonishes me. I’m all for self-examination, repentance and rectification for actual wrongs. In all respect, I think we should be careful not to own sins Catholics did not commit, not in the name of the faith. I fail to see the attribution made to ‘Catholic’ hatred against the Protestants during the Troubles, as an example raised here. Unless historical accounts are wrong, it was an ethno-political feud in Northern Ireland that spilled out to England and parts of Europe.
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