Cardinal: Gays "will never enter the Reign of God"

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dixieagle said:
His initial statement in Italian, “Trans e omosessuali non entreranno mai nel Regno dei Cieli” simply translates into “trans and homosexuals will never enter into the kingdon of heaven” with no qualifiers indicating “active” homosexuals. Later in the statement, he says “ma agendo contro la dignità del corpo” which means “but acting against the dignity of the body” which could indicate he was referring only to active homosexuals. He also clearly states that he believes homosexuals choose their orientation, which is out of sync with the Catechism, no matter how it’s translated.

I think this may, in part, be a case of “lost in translation”. The Vatican certainly thought that his first statement was - at least - ambiguous, and required clarification. I am glad it happened.
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You have far more trust and faith in the press than I do…Unless you heard him state it…I would not take it as reported
 
onthenarrowpath said:
I completely tore up my Catechism and threw it in the trash last night. That’s how much this has affected my view of Catholicism. I obviously can’t trust what it says, so why bother keeping it?

I’m secure in knowing who I am, and that I did not choose to be gay. I know God has walked with me and shown me things along the path I walk. That’s enough for me. I will not be converting to Catholicism. May God have mercy upon my soul.
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onthenarrowpath, please re-think your position. I know you did not chose your Same Sex Attraction, but that doesn’t mean that that God wants you to embrace those feelings.

Here’s a “must read” article from Fr. Vincent Serpa where he interviews a person who turned away from a 7 year homosexual relationship and back toward the church.

catholic.com/thisrock/2009/0903fea1.asp

Here’s one paragraph from the article:
"The key for me, in a broad sense, was changing my way of thinking. I focused on reconciling myself to what God wants for me, rather than trying to reconcile my notion of God with how I saw myself. That change of perspective is not easy at all. The sense of self is very powerful and extraordinarily difficult to overcome, especially once it has been given a chance to grow roots. That results in a sense of hopelessness and impossibility. This, I am sure, is what drives a lot of people with SSA away from the Church. Because of their focus on the self, they [falsely] see only two possibilities—either live a life of mortal sin or live a life of pure misery. A lot of people in my position feel like religion presents them with a choice between death by damnation or death by desolation. What I would say to someone in that position is: Start by coming to God and his Church and take it from there. The Church helps me see that the sense of hopelessness originates from a mis-orientation of thoughts. The truth is that doing things that please God does not result in a life of desolation. "

Good luck to all in this struggle. I would also like to say there is hope that when the root causes of the SSA are explored and dealt with, the person can change and experience normal relationships.

Of course satan is running amok with lies. he wants you to believe you were born this way (and I know it feels like you were). he wants you to believe that you can’t change or that it would be dangerous to try. he wants you to believe that it’s societies problem if they don’t accept you. he wants you to believe that those who have changed never were really gay in the first place.

Mary, Queen of Angels, pray for all those afflicted with SSA. Keep them from evil and help them see the light.

John Marie Philomena
 
Wwwwait…I thought he was saying that homosexuals can be attracted to the same sex, through no fault of their own, in many cases…but nonetheless, they still need to live a chaste life, and not commit homosexual acts. I didn’t get the sense he was saying that all homosexuals ‘‘choose’’ their orientation. Maybe I am misreading something.
 
onthenarrowpath said:
I completely tore up my Catechism and threw it in the trash last night. That’s how much this has affected my view of Catholicism. I obviously can’t trust what it says, so why bother keeping it?

I’m secure in knowing who I am, and that I did not choose to be gay. I know God has walked with me and shown me things along the path I walk. That’s enough for me. I will not be converting to Catholicism. May God have mercy upon my soul.
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Wait, onthenarrowpath…please reconsider. I would enourage you to read this…it’s directly from CAF, and gives a very clear Catholic stance. You are a loved child of God, please know this…

catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

Particular to our topic here…
The Call to Chastity

The modern arguments in favor of homosexuality have thus been insufficient to overcome the evidence that homosexual behavior is against divine and natural law, as the Bible and the Church, as well as the wider circle of Jewish and Christian (not to mention Muslim) writers, have always held.

The Catholic Church thus teaches: “Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357).

However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.
 
redrosetea said:
You have far more trust and faith in the press than I do…Unless you heard him state it…I would not take it as reported
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Well, the Vatican must have thought he said it, as they responded swiftly.

And my husband is a broadcast journalist. 😉
 
No wonder you trust them…I think the Vatican was only trying to get the story right…I don’t trust…but I am sure your husband is a great guy
 
redrosetea said:
No wonder you trust them…I think the Vatican was only trying to get the story right…I don’t trust…but I am sure your husband is a great guy
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Believe me, I have seen many instances (as have we all) when the mainstream media seizes upon some juicy tidbit and blows it out of proportion. That’s what sells papers, gets people to tune in, and gets “hits” on your web page. And, I think that secular media are especially quick to jump on anything that could make the Church look bad, or backward, or out of step. (Lord knows that there has been plenty of fodder as a result of clerical misdeeds.)

Whether the Cardinal used a poor choice of words, or something was lost in translation, or he really felt that way and had to backtrack, the Vatican stepped in to clear the air. That also makes the original post a fairly moot point.

God bless all, especially those struggling on a daily basis with SSA.
 
"the experience of same-sex attractions is itself a sin that will lead people to Hell. "
Boy you are wrong. That’s not a sin. Actions can be controlled, but thoughts, emotions, and others cannot. All one can do iss pray for Divine insparation during those moments.

Saying things like that is what makes alot of us Christians look bad and prevent others from comming closer to the Faith.
 
archangel04 said:
Actions can be controlled, but thoughts … cannot.
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Thoughts can and must be controlled in order to live a Christian life. We are not permitted to willfully think about certain things. Additionally, we have to control our desires. The willful desire for homosexual activity, for example, is a serious sin.

The question here is “deliberate thought”. Temptations are thoughts that can be generated subconsciously or through the influence of evil spirits. If a person suffers constantly from homosexual temptations then this is a situation where more spiritual help is needed (spiritual counselling, etc). In the same way, if a person suffers constantly from temptations to commit adultery, for example, that is not a condition that should be celebrated or fostered. Looking into the root-causes is necessary. Why is this man constantly tempted to commit adultery with his best friend’s wife? That question needs to be answered and then a remedy needs to be applied to the situation.
 
reggieM said:
TThe question here is “deliberate thought”. Temptations are thoughts that can be generated subconsciously or through the influence of evil spirits.
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All well and good. But what has that got to do with Transsexuality. I’ll repeat myself:
“And all of the posts so far have been about homosexuality, rather than Transsexuality and other Intersex medical conditions. These are situations, nothing to do with sexual orientation or behaviour. There are Gay and Lesbian Transsexuals, but the majority are straight.”
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His Eminence’s words appear to be from I Corinthians 6:9-10 , the King James Version.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
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malakoi (μαλακοι)is literally “soft”. In the New International Version it’s translated as “male prostitutes”, in the New American Standard and KJV as “effeminate”. In all cases it’s distinct from homosexuals arsenokoites (αρσενοκοιται).

The thinking seems to be that “effeminate” means “transvestite”, and thus anyone transsexual, intersexed etc. Any male who crosses the line of properly segregated gendered behaviour, and hence any female too.

Actions are not required: mere existence is enough to merit Damnation.
 
whatevergirl said:
*Not really. I ask, because you are making these assumptions about gay people, as a whole…as though they are all aware of their sinful natures, and are just ‘hedonistic,’ as you put it. I have a few gay friends, who have been in long term relationships…and they don’t view their relationships as ‘wrong.’ That is part of the problem. But, they view their relationships as loving. Not all people who are gay, are aware that their behavior is sinful. *
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very very true
 
dixieagle said:
As this was dated today, it sounds as if the Cardinal did a little tap dancing after the fact. At any rate, I am glad for the clarification.
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He is not dancing. He said what is correct. What is incorrect is all the spinning done by dissident Catholic mags, persons, and secular media.
 
nlm said:
Some time ago I was told on this forum that even when one receives one’s religious education from nuns and priests ( which was my experience) this does not guarantee that the information provided was indeed correct. The poster went on to add bishops to the list of possible faulty educators in the faith. Now we read that even a cardinal’s teachings are not correct. This is a man who, by virtue of his position within the church, is involved in the choosing of Popes and could possibly become a Pope himself.How is it that individuals at this upper level do not seem to know the " official" teachings of the church? Please don’t answer that he was giving his personal opinion. When one becomes a cardinal.I would think one should learn to keep one’s opinions to one’s self and teach the “official” position of the church. God Bless. NLM
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The problem is not this cardinal. The problem is intentional, or not, misreporting and spinning of his comments.
 
fix said:
The problem is not this cardinal. The problem is intentional, or not, misreporting and spinning of his comments.
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You may be right that misreporting is the source of the problem under discussion in this thread. I, for one, am gratified to know that it is false to believe that homosexuals or transexuals “will never enter the reign of God” and that this is not the Church’s teaching.
 
fish90 said:
… Homosexuals who have great difficulty in becoming heterosexual must live a celibate life, period. They can enter heaven should they be celibate and not have any other mortal sin on their souls. …

This does not mean homosexuality is to be accepted, but we must remember these people as God’s children as well, not give acceptance to their sinful behavior and most of all demand they live a celibate Christian life.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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No need for correction, you’re 100 % right !!
 
lifetree said:
No need for correction, you’re 100 % right !!
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But please tread carefully. These people are our sons, our daughters, our brothers and sisters. They did not choose to have a same sex attraction (although I don’t believe they were born that way).

They deserve to be treated with love and respect, not hatred and disdain.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena
 
JohnMPhilomena said:
But please tread carefully. These people are our sons, our daughters, our brothers and sisters. They did not choose to have a same sex attraction (although I don’t believe they were born that way).

They deserve to be treated with love and respect, not hatred and disdain.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena
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We show them love with Christian truth. Love does not involve allowing someone go to hell.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
 
JohnMPhilomena said:
But please tread carefully. These people are our sons, our daughters, our brothers and sisters. They did not choose to have a same sex attraction (although I don’t believe they were born that way).

They deserve to be treated with love and respect, not hatred and disdain.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena
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Love and respect must mean that we will provide those who obstinately persist in their same-sex attractions the truth: they are eternally imperiling their souls. Hatred and disdain would mean ignoring this grave obligation and losing to Hell those souls that could have been saved but for our admonition.
 
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