Cardinal George and the Mormons

[Tradycja]

newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/cardinal-george-addresses-religious-freedom-in-speech-at-byu

Cardinal George speaking to Mormons:

“Our churches have different histories and systems of belief and practice, although we acknowledge a common reference point in the person and the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

 

[djeter]

I’ve seen a lot of “eeks” about this speech. Could you be more specific?

dj

 

[jonpd]

I guess I don’t have a problem with what the Cardinal said, given that this is in the context of the churches fighting for religious freedom and to combat common issues such as abortion, pornography and other ills of society. Both Catholicism and Mormonism have historically had to fight discrmination in society, originally from the Protestant majority and now from a dominant secular culture that wishes to suppress the ability for churches to have a voice in the cultural debates.

 

[Adeodatus]

I’ve seen a lot of “eeks” about this speech. Could you be more specific?

dj

I’m guessing it’s because the Mormons believe that God is a space alien who physically impregnated the Virgin Mary and that they say that Jesus is some sort of “spirit brother” of the devil. All of which is rank blasphemy.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Hmmm…the Cardinal pointing out that we both share our roots in the same Scriptures, the Holy Bible…I don’t see any cause for commotion. He didn’t endorse their beliefs…just pointed out a fact.

 

[Della]

Hmmm…the Cardinal pointing out that we both share our roots in the same Scriptures, the Holy Bible…I don’t see any cause for commotion. He didn’t endorse their beliefs…just pointed out a fact.

Exactly. Mormons acknowledge the historical person of Jesus Christ and that he preached the good news to mankind. That’s all the Cardinal was referring to, for crying out loud! It hardly makes the Cardinal a closet Mormon!

 

[ServantofMary]

There is no “common reference point” between Catholics and Mormons. The “Jesus” of Mormonism is not the Jesus of Catholicism, and the “gospel” of Mormonism is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[otjm]

There is no “common reference point” between Catholics and Mormons. The “Jesus” of Mormonism is not the Jesus of Catholicism, and the “gospel” of Mormonism is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And as brilliant as the Cardinal is, I would hazard a guess that just possibly, he has that part figured out.

And as to no common reference point, there are common reference points in morality, especially concerning abortion and marriage being only between a man and a woman. They took as much if not more heat in California in the vote over the matter of marriage, heat that continued long after the vote. Had they and the Catholic Church not aligned on the matter, it is serioulsly debatable whether that would have been defeated; the Catholic Church in spite of the number of Catholics simply could not have carried the day. Which is a sad commentary about the people in the pews - and the larger number who aren’t.
We can all agree that the Catholic Church as little to extremely little in common with the LDS in regards to most theological issues (morality being one that we share a greater degree). For that matter, we do not have a lot in common with Islam; but Islam has been a staunch and loyal ally in issues concering abortion and birth control world wide.

It is easy to come down on the LDS (or Islam, for that matter) and not realize what the Church does outside of one’s own sphere. And what the Church does can be and is done without denying the truth of our differences.

 

[Adeodatus]

There is no “common reference point” between Catholics and Mormons. The “Jesus” of Mormonism is not the Jesus of Catholicism, and the “gospel” of Mormonism is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I agree. Mormonism is a blasphemous and diabolical cult, with which Catholics have nothing in common.

The cardinal’s statement is astonishing in its colossal and egregious theological error. I would hope that, if pressed, the cardinal would not steadfastly persist in his position.

 

[jonpd]

…the Cardinal pointing out that we both share our roots in the same Scriptures, the Holy Bible.

Two religions can share roots but come to different beliefs about those roots. For example both us and the Jews share the Old Testament but come to vastly different beliefs, Christians read them as prefiguring Christ whereas Jews still wait for a Messiah. In the same way Mormons and Christians come to different conclusions about common scripture. I don’t see this as an endorsement of Mormon beliefs.

The real struggle we have in this society is with the culture of death promoted by the secular society and we need all the help we can get in fighting it.

 

[Genesis315]

There is a reason the CDF issued a statement saying their baptisms were not valid–they do not believe in the Trinity–from what I have read it doesn’t even seem they believe in God, as their god is a contingent being and not one of perfect simplicity–they posit a different essence than we do.

That being said, there’s nothing wrong with collaboration to defend to the natural law in society.

 

[cathguy]

I have family members who are Mormon, and some good friends.

The Cardinal’s speech, when we read it, in no way minimizes our differences.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with advocating that faith has a place in the public sphere. We as Catholics (especially traditionally leaning Catholics) are not content to simply hear Mass out of a sense of nostalgia or sentimentality. Religion must have role in the public sphere.

We are not called to keep our faith in one box, and walk in the world as if the faith has no relevance.

Furthermore, we ARE called to charity, civility, and should try the best as we can for irenic dialog and interaction.

Even as we pray for our Mormon friends and loved ones, even as we argue with them, we must pray for their conversion to the true faith, we must at the same time reach out in love.

Working together where we can is important. Furthermore, having respect for people, and recognizing that PEOPLE have rights, even as error does not, is very important.

In internet chat rooms like this opinions are shared in the most rash way, without fear of consequences. Let us as we discuss our differences with the various protestant sects, and other groups like Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, use charity as we proclaim the truth. This does NOT mean watering down the truth, it just means sharing it in a way that communicates clearly we know Christ, and are more concerned about reaching out in love rather than playing a game with apologetics etc.

One example where working together has born good fruit is proposition 8 in California. It is a truth that the Mormons did a great deal to stand up for prop. 8, and we should be both grateful, and seek to collaborate where we can in favor of the natural moral law.

If any are attempted to attack me as a liberal or someone who is being too kind etc. simply remind yourself of the great Fulton Sheen. He said something like “even if we cannot meet in the pew, we can meet at the foot of the cross in prayer.” The audio of him saying it is often on his Life is Worth Living episodes on EWTN. I can’t remember the exact quote right now.

I am not speaking here of ecumenism, and indifferentism, which are both false and dangerous. Just working together in the public sphere. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[cathguy]

I agree. Mormonism is a blasphemous and diabolical cult, with which Catholics have nothing in common.

The cardinal’s statement is astonishing in its colossal and egregious theological error. I would hope that, if pressed, the cardinal would not steadfastly persist in his position.

We are Catholics, not evangelical protestants. Let us not imitate some of their very bad habits.

We ought to know better than saying things like this. How we speak, and what we say, matters.

I can think of no document of the Magesterium that refers to the Mormons as “a blasphemous and diabolical cult.”

They are WRONG. Very wrong on many theological issues, but they are a religion… not a “blasphemous cult.”

 

[ServantofMary]

And as to no common reference point, there are common reference points in morality, especially concerning abortion and marriage being only between a man and a woman.

That’s not to what the cardinal as clearly referring. He said (emphasize mine):

“… although we acknowledge a common reference point** in the person and the gospel of Jesus Christ**.”

Obviously, we do not have a common reference point on those two issues.

 

[otjm]

I agree. Mormonism is a blasphemous and diabolical cult, with which Catholics have nothing in common.

The cardinal’s statement is astonishing in its colossal and egregious theological error. I would hope that, if pressed, the cardinal would not steadfastly persist in his position.

What is astounding is your lack of understanding of Church activity with other religions. There is no theological error whatsoever in the Cardinal’s statement. His grasp of theology as well as Church (Catholic) to church relations is far better than yours.

 

[otjm]

That’s not to what the cardinal as clearly referring. He said (emphasize mine):

“… although we acknowledge a common reference point** in the person and the gospel of Jesus Christ**.”

Obviously, we do not have a common reference point on those two issues.

Of course we have a common reference point. The fact that they are sadly and seriously skewed in their understanding of the reference point does not indicate that the reference point does not exist.

 

[Adeodatus]

Of course we have a common reference point. The fact that they are sadly and seriously skewed in their understanding of the reference point does not indicate that the reference point does not exist.

Except that we don’t. Mormons say that the person of Jesus Christ is not Divine, and His Gospel is not sufficient.

It’s the same way with the Muslims. They believe that there was a guy named Jesus who said some good things. They deny that He is God or that His Gospel is sufficient. Should we say that we have a common reference point with the Muslims in the person and Gospel of Jesus Christ? No. It’s a flatly erroneous statement.

 

[otjm]

Except that we don’t. Mormons say that the person of Jesus Christ is not Divine, and His Gospel is not sufficient.

It’s the same way with the Muslims. They believe that there was a guy named Jesus who said some good things. They deny that He is God or that His Gospel is sufficient. Should we say that we have a common reference point with the Muslims in the person and Gospel of Jesus Christ? No. It’s a flatly erroneous statement.

OK, so you simply don’t get it.

Try reading what I said.

Jesus Christ is the reference point. From that point, we diverge. The fact that we diverge does not mean that we do not have a reference point. That is not stating a theological fallacy. It is simply stating a fact.

The fact that they consider Christ to be different than we consider Christ does not mean that we do not share that starting point.

Further, your comparsion to Islam is a false comparison as you are adding something - the Gospels, which we do not share with them. We do, however, share the Gospels with the LDS church, but their theological udnerstanding of God is radically different from the Church’s. The fact that our understanding ofr them is radically different does not mean that we do not share the same Scriptures (and obviously we do not share the rest of what they consider sacred scriptures).

 

[Adeodatus]

otjm, you err however in suggesting that we can treat Mormons as if they are some type of Protestant. They’re not. Like Muslims, they accept Jesus as a sort of prophet but add a new book which glosses His words. Like Muslims, Mormons are not a type of Christian. They deny virtually every proposition necessary to qualify one as a Christian.

Do Catholics have a common reference point with Satanists regarding the person of Jesus Christ? We worship Him and they blaspheme Him. Is that all it takes to qualify as a “reference point”?

What a jejune and sophistical proposition.

 

[otjm]

otjm, you err however in suggesting that we can treat Mormons as if they are some type of Protestant. They’re not. Like Muslims, they accept Jesus as a sort of prophet but add a new book which glosses His words. Like Muslims, Mormons are not a type of Christian. They deny virtually every proposition necessary to qualify one as a Christian.

Do Catholics have a common reference point with Satanists regarding the person of Jesus Christ? We worship Him and they blaspheme Him. Is that all it takes to qualify as a “reference point”?

What a jejune and sophistical proposition.

I made no suggestion as to how we treat the LDS; you may want to go back and read what I wrote. And you don’t need to tell me whtat the LDS believe, I suspect I know more about them than you do. I have family members who are LDS.

Having had Cardinal George as my archbishop, and perhaps being a bit more acquainted with him than you are, perhaps I have a bit better perspective as to how theologically sound he is.

If you want to imply a connection between Satanists and the LDS, you are welcome to make whatever speculations you wish, but I will presume that you were not doing so. Satanists certainly do not have the moral foundation which the LDS have, so the point is irrelevant.

The fact is, we do have a common reference point with them. Whether you like it or not, that is factual; Cardinal George spoke of a fact which the Church holds likewise. The Church has been working with the LDS church on significant moral issues; likewise, they have been working with Islam on significant moral issues. If that bothers you, then perhaps you need to explore why it is that the Church does so, rather than sitting there condemning it as if you had some special theological insight that the Church does not.