Cardinal: German bishops support allowing some remarried Catholics to receive communion

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Prodigal_40s said:
Matthew 10:16 contains an easy command to follow and Christ tells us to ignore the real serpents who want to cause confusion and lies. It is always important to answer questions directly and truthfully and unfortunately some people will mock outrage. If the words are heartfelt and based on truth and we have faith in them, truth will always shine through.
Going down to the secular level always results in arguments that lead to hate. The Bible is the guide and I would always quote it when direct questions call for direct answers
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👍 If the words are heartfelt and based on truth and love and we have faith in them, truth and love will always shine through.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
👍 If the words are heartfelt and based on truth and love and we have faith in them, truth and love will always shine through.
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Love in its truest sense by willing the good of the other even if you “hurt their feelings”. The trouble with the contemporary usage of Love is that it means total acceptance of positions to spare any emotional distress. The truth can hurt unfortunately.

Damn I sound like one of those “traditionalists” 😉
 
Prodigal_40s said:
Love in its truest sense by willing the good of the other even if you “hurt their feelings”. The trouble with the contemporary usage of Love is that it means total acceptance of positions to spare any emotional distress. The truth can hurt unfortunately.

Damn I sound like one of those “traditionalists” 😉
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With you, dude. “Traditionalist” or not. 🙂 I agree on the modern, secular interpretation of the word love; it amounts to nothing more than self-affirmation at the expense of the truth. But I am seeing a lot of folks get really worried about others lacking the truth and needing to go out there and expound it with a hammer. Not much of the poor sinner is left…and not much of the well meaning “traditionalist” either. Devil 2 God 0.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
With you, dude. “Traditionalist” or not. 🙂 I agree on the modern, secular interpretation of the word love; it amounts to nothing more than self-affirmation at the expense of the truth. But I am seeing a lot of folks get really worried about others lacking the truth and needing to go out there and expound it with a hammer. Not much of the poor sinner is left…and not much of the well meaning “traditionalist” either. Devil 2 God 0.
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The key thing is to condemn the sin and not the sinner. When you say that the media turn that into “hate” which is something personal and directed at an individual or individuals.
 
Prodigal_40s said:
The key thing is to condemn the sin and not the sinner. When you say that the media turn that into “hate” which is something personal and directed at an individual or individuals.
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Yes, exactly, hate the sin, love the sinner. I personally find myself getting into arguments with people about a certain teaching, for example, practicing homosexuality is a sin, and both sides are getting angrier and angrier. I believe this teaching to be true. But I have yet to have an opponent say, “Thank you so much for enlightening me! I have been so lost! Can I go with you to Mass this week?” In short, fighting with people rarely works to achieve their conversion; it can even alienate them further. I think your best bet is to plant a seed, right? Tell them the truth, why it is so, in a positive, general way, and leave it at that, on good terms. That they will remember and be much more likely to open up to over time in their own way, especially if you approach them with genuine camaraderie. That is how you help people, IMHO.

My specific reference to hate was actually a reference to the way the so called traditionalists respond to Francis. I realized after I posted the comment I was on the wrong thread; I meant to put that elsewhere; sorry for any confusion in what I was implying…
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Yes, exactly, hate the sin, love the sinner. I personally find myself getting into arguments with people about a certain teaching, for example, practicing homosexuality is a sin, and both sides are getting angrier and angrier. I believe this teaching to be true. But I have yet to have an opponent say, “Thank you so much for enlightening me! I have been so lost! Can I go with you to Mass this week?” In short, fighting with people rarely works to achieve their conversion; it can even alienate them further. I think your best bet is to plant a seed, right? Tell them the truth, why it is so, in a positive, general way, and leave it at that, on good terms. That they will remember and be much more likely to open up to over time in their own way, especially if you approach them with genuine camaraderie. That is how you help people, IMHO.

My specific reference to hate was actually a reference to the way the so called traditionalists respond to Francis. I realized after I posted the comment I was on the wrong thread; I meant to put that elsewhere; sorry for any confusion in what I was implying…
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The problem is though a lot of opponents to the church won’t agree to disagree and certainly don’t want to be your pal afterwards
 
I once saw the reply:
We’ll have to agree to disagree. We will continue to worship God; you in your way and I in His. 😃
 
Prodigal_40s said:
The problem is though a lot of opponents to the church won’t agree to disagree and certainly don’t want to be your pal afterwards
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Agreed. The crux of the matter (this is aimed at myself more than you) is to never push it to the point of becoming cruel to someone, or actually mounting an attack designed to hurt them. I do this and I have been on the receiving end of it; we all do it really. When I do it, I am SERIOUSLY starting to worry about the effect of it on where I stand before God, on my own soul; of course it’s also achieving nothing whatsoever in terms of advancing the cause of spreading the Word. (I am talking about one on one situations.)
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Agreed. The crux of the matter (this is aimed at myself more than you) is to never push it to the point of becoming cruel to someone, or actually mounting an attack designed to hurt them. I do this and I have been on the receiving end of it; we all do it really. When I do it, I am SERIOUSLY starting to worry about the effect of it on where I stand before God, on my own soul; of course it’s also achieving nothing whatsoever in terms of advancing the cause of spreading the Word. (I am talking about one on one situations.)
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It’s really hard to find common ground and if not the onus is on us to say that the Commandments demand that we strive to a perfection that we’ll never attain because we’re all the same flawed sinners. However I stress that when we start even suggesting that we “modify” and “upgrade” the laws of God we’re embarking on a dangerous and foolish path. It is hard to get people on board with such stringent rules but being a Catholic is hard. The German bishops involved in this “watering down” if the media reports are even accurate need to clarify without any softening of their approach to what they propose. Then we can understand
 
Prodigal_40s said:
It’s really hard to find common ground and if not the onus is on us to say that the Commandments demand that we strive to a perfection that we’ll never attain because we’re all the same flawed sinners. However I stress that when we start even suggesting that we “modify” and “upgrade” the laws of God we’re embarking on a dangerous and foolish path. It is hard to get people on board with such stringent rules but being a Catholic is hard. The German bishops involved in this “watering down” if the media reports are even accurate need to clarify without any softening of their approach to what they propose. Then we can understand
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Oh, no, for the record, I am not with the German bishops - I think they are undermining Scripture on a number of fronts.

I am not for watering down Scripture or Church teaching at all. I have been very consistent on that; I am just saying this commitment to defending Scripture can if you are not careful turn from a blessing to a curse. Just make sure you do it for the right reasons. There is a danger there of self-righteousness and anger, even hatred settling in. At that point, you’re not helping God; the devil is playing you.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Oh, no, for the record, I am not with the German bishops - I think they are undermining Scripture on a number of fronts.

I am not for watering down Scripture or Church teaching at all. I have been very consistent on that; **I am just saying this commitment to defending Scripture can if you are not careful turn from a blessing to a curse. ** Just make sure you do it for the right reasons. There is a danger there of self-righteousness and anger, even hatred settling in. At that point, you’re not helping God; the devil is playing you.
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I don’t think so if it’s merely stating the Truth.
 
I do not understand the criticism of the Germans bishops. The statement was in no way contradictory to current Catholic doctrine as they specifically state, “under certain conditions.” We already have one situation, where a couple live as brother and sister. As long as a proposed condition does not contradict doctrine, it can contradict Canon Law, or any other discipline, when presented as a proposal. That stuff can and does freely change with the pastoral needs of the time.
 
“Cardinal Reinhard Marx, who presented the findings of a special working group in the German bishops’ conference on the subject in Bonn on 22 December, described divorce and remarriage as ‘often the beginning of a process of alienation from the Church’.”

I think the Cardinal has this spot on! 👍

It’s what’s called Sin and to embrace it is to alienate yourself from God so that’s very accurate from His Eminence. To allow persons in a State of Mortal Sin the Blessed Sacrament is a mortal sin too. There is of course a remedy:

1385 To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."218 Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.

I don’t make the rules and neither does anyone else. Hope this is of use…
 
Prodigal_40s said:
“Cardinal Reinhard Marx, who presented the findings of a special working group in the German bishops’ conference on the subject in Bonn on 22 December, described divorce and remarriage as ‘often the beginning of a process of alienation from the Church’.”

I think the Cardinal has this spot on! 👍

It’s what’s called Sin and to embrace it is to alienate yourself from God so that’s very accurate from His Eminence. To allow persons in a State of Mortal Sin the Blessed Sacrament is a mortal sin too. There is of course a remedy:

1385 To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."218 Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.

**I don’t make the rules and neither does anyone else. **Hope this is of use…
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The Church ‘makes the rules’ since Jesus gave her the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. She has the job of interpreting scripture and making the rules by which we are bound or loosed. The Church who is the living Magisterium ministering to her people from age to age.
 
LongingSoul said:
The Church ‘makes the rules’ since Jesus gave her the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. She has the job of interpreting scripture and making the rules by which we are bound or loosed. The Church who is the living Magisterium ministering to her people from age to age.
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SPOT ON! 👍

Wow so much good sense. That’s why the Catechism (1345) law on receiving Holy Communion is there for eternity. Amen.

Thanks for your help on this. Better simply to read it, accept and love it along with the Holy Mother Church 😃
 
Prodigal_40s said:
SPOT ON! 👍

Wow so much good sense. That’s why the Catechism (1345) law on receiving Holy Communion is there for eternity. Amen.

Thanks for your help on this. Better simply to read it, accept and love it along with the Holy Mother Church 😃
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And likewise to rejoice in the living Magisteriums reformulations of the rules that better reflect the eternal Truths to the people of all ages.
 
pnewton said:
I do not understand the criticism of the Germans bishops. The statement was in no way contradictory to current Catholic doctrine as they specifically state, “under certain conditions.” We already have one situation, where a couple live as brother and sister. As long as a proposed condition does not contradict doctrine, it can contradict Canon Law, or any other discipline, when presented as a proposal. That stuff can and does freely change with the pastoral needs of the time.
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I suppose all doctrine as well as divine law can operate under “certain conditions.” Just how certain are we of these conditions, seeing how the people who define them have to stand before God just like everyone else? Wouldn’t repeated statements of those conditions by successive Popes be one indication of their veracity?
 
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