Cardinal Kasper: Latin theology is a 'prisoner' of commutative justice [CWN]

  • Thread starter Thread starter CWN_News
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
So where is the doctrine calling for priests to chastise penitents in the confessional ? 🤷
Jim
As mentioned, it is one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy. I thought that you wanted to see more mercy in the confessional, so why the objection?
 
As mentioned, it is one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy. I thought that you wanted to see more mercy in the confessional, so why the objection?
Chastisement is one of the works of mercy a priest is called to administer?

How is it Pope Francis is missing this ? :rolleyes:

Jim
 
As mentioned, it is one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy. I thought that you wanted to see more mercy in the confessional, so why the objection?
The more accurate translation of that work of mercy is ‘admonish’, which from the Latin means to warn, as in to guide, show, teach. Those with the unfortunate problem of self righteousness can only accuse, blame, judge, condemn from their heart. Todays gospel is a good one to contemplate for a right disposition in approaching another’s sin…

Jesus told his disciples a parable:
“Can a blind person guide a blind person?
Will not both fall into a pit?
No disciple is superior to the teacher;
but when fully trained,
every disciple will be like his teacher.
Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye,
but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own?
How can you say to your brother,
‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’
when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye?
You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first;
then you will see clearly
to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.” - Luke 6 39-42

Another good explanation from a Fr. Apostoli…

To admonish the sinner begins by admonishing one’s self. After all, we are all sinners. Humility is the virtue by which we recognize our sinfulness and our weakness, thus realizing that we ourselves depend upon God’s mercy to forgive us our sins and upon His grace to strengthen us to resist sin in the future. Without humility, we will not admit our sins honestly to ourselves and, when needed, to others also. Since human weakness is always present due to Original Sin and our own past personal sins, we know that we must struggle each day to resist evil and do good. The Bible says that even the just person falls seven times a day. (cf. Prov. 24:16) In biblical terms a “just person” meant a holy person. So even the saints had their sins and needed to remind themselves constantly of the danger of sinning. They needed always to beware of falling again. Jesus Himself told the apostles in the Garden of Gethsemane, “Watch and pray that you may not enter into the test.” (Mt. 26:41) When we “pray,” we strengthen ourselves to resist sin by asking God for the grace to carry out His Will every day. When we “watch,” we are vigilant to avoid the occasions of sin, namely, any person, place, or thing that would lead us to offend God.

To admonish others effectively, there are two other points we must keep in mind. First, we must practice what we preach. In other words, we have to be working at striving for holiness and avoiding sin in our own lives if we expect others to do the same. It has been said, “I can’t hear what you are saying because of what you are doing!” The approach, “Do what I say and not what I do,” will never work. The second point is to avoid the terrible attitude of self righteousness with its judgmental view of others. Self-righteousness puts a person into the mindset of the Pharisees who were quick to condemn sin in others but overlooked it in themselves. This was the point of Jesus’ challenge to them in the Gospel story of the woman caught in adultery. (cf. Jn 8:1 ff) They were quite ready to condemn this woman for her sin. In fact, they challenged Jesus on whether she should be stoned or not, according to the law of Moses. Jesus did not say “yes,” nor did He say “no.” He simply challenged them in return: “Let the one among you who has no sin cast the first stone.” Then the Gospel tells us He began to write on the ground. Whatever He wrote apparently referred to each individual’s sins because as each one saw what Our Blessed Lord wrote, they dropped their stones and walked away. To carry out this work of admonishing the sinner, a person must have a sense of compassion for human weakness, and we can only learn that by recognizing our own weaknesses. If we fail to do so, we will be throwing a lot of stones at other people, and this would not be the Gospel attitude.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=8158
 
The more accurate translation of that work of mercy is ‘admonish’, which from the Latin means to warn, as in to guide, show, teach. Those with the unfortunate problem of self righteousness can only accuse, blame, judge, condemn from their heart. Todays gospel is a good one to contemplate for a right disposition in approaching another’s sin…
But how would you know if the priest in question has not practiced the self admonishment that you mention? How would the penitent know to what extent. Did the priest hold fast tot he sin that he is admonishing, or does he actually practice what he preaches and avoids that sin?

Old St. Nick himself admonished Arius on the Council floor at Nicaea. He did so by slugging him.

Of course, some of the Arian bishops objected ( and they were the majority) and began proceedings to expel Santa from their midst. Fortunately for us, Our Lady intervened and revealed herself to several of the bishops, and declared that Our Lord approved of St. Nicholas and his use of ‘percussion’ admonishment, thus converting many of them to the Truth of Christ’s Divinity.

Such admonishment is no less Saintly, and no less an Act of Mercy, than anything done by the Little Flower herself.
 
But how would you know if the priest in question has not practiced the self admonishment that you mention? How would the penitent know to what extent. Did the priest hold fast tot he sin that he is admonishing, or does he actually practice what he preaches and avoids that sin?

Old St. Nick himself admonished Arius on the Council floor at Nicaea. He did so by slugging him.

Of course, some of the Arian bishops objected ( and they were the majority) and began proceedings to expel Santa from their midst. Fortunately for us, Our Lady intervened and revealed herself to several of the bishops, and declared that Our Lord approved of St. Nicholas and his use of ‘percussion’ admonishment, thus converting many of them to the Truth of Christ’s Divinity.

Such admonishment is no less Saintly, and no less an Act of Mercy, than anything done by the Little Flower herself.
Heavens knows how you rationalise violence against others by that account?? Constantine had St Nicholas arrested and jailed for punching someone in the face… not for his belief. That in anybody’s language, constitutes assault even in those more violent times. His release could be said to be an act of mercy by the civil authorities, not an endorsement of using violence against an opponent in discussion. Good golly grief. How right Cardinal Kasper is about some being imprisoned by legalism!
 
Heavens knows how you rationalise violence against others by that account?? Constantine had St Nicholas arrested and jailed for punching someone in the face… not for his belief.
And Constantine begged for forgiveness for that offence when St. Nicholas was released.
That in anybody’s language, constitutes assault even in those more violent times.
And when St. Nicholas was asked by Our Lady, “why are you imprisioned”, he response was “For Loving You”

Was St. Nicholas wrong to state that?, Our Lady did not think so, for she later appeared to the Arians to defend him.
His release could be said to be an act of mercy by the civil authorities,
Then why did Constantine seek forgiveness FROM St. Nicholas?

. How right Cardinal Kasper is about some being imprisoned by legalism!

Where is the ‘legalism’ in St. Nicholas’s action?
 
Why are “automatic” posts allowed by moderators?

I thought moderators don’t allow trolls.

Jim R-OCDS, the Holy Spirit does not speak through Teilhard de Chardin.

The Holy Spirit does speak through all Scriptures, without exception, in Aramaic, Greek, Chinese, English.

Let real theologians provide us with balance and let them speak for themselves and not have this sort of person twist their words.

I smell a rat when “mercy” is somehow *contrasted *with “justice”. In a bait-and-switch “justice” becomes “legalism” and back again.

I believe in one God who is consistent. Why are some of you disputing that?

As you know I am radically un-legalistic but I do believe God means justice. This means He means mercy. Exactly. Precisely. No either-or.

If this wasn’t being foisted on us I would pass it off as the obscure stuff churchmen fill in their spare time with at unimportant lecture venues. Why does he arrange it to be highlighted in the media? Note he doesn’t give any explanation for his actions, pretending to be self-effacing.

I appreciate the quotes from the utterly reliable Pope Francis.

Oh yes and:

discipline, train, correct, reform, restrain, refine

In my lovey-dovey New Testament the C-word is used in Lk 23, Heb 12, Rev 3. Where would I - and you - be if it wasn’t.
No one has disputed that God is consistent and certainly not that there is but one God. In Latin there are the separate words “justice” and “mercy”, as there are in the German and English languages. What follows is a quote from the preface of the Cardinal’s book by its translator:

“Every translation, however, is also an interpretation. As other translators have acknowledged, it is sometimes very difficult to translate key terms in the same way every time because the range of meanings of German words does not exactly match the range of meanings of the relevant cognate English words. The translator has to make choices based on his or her understanding of the author’s meaning and the context.” --Preface to the English translation of Mercy: The Essence of the Gospel and the Key to Christian Life,", by Karl Kasper.

The same is true of any translation from Aramaic to Greek to Latin and then to English. To conclude that the meaning of justice as used in standard English or as one might understand or interpret the word is God’s justice is what is legalistic. If there is no either/or in God’s justice, as the theologians Romano Guardini and Cardinal Kasper maintain, why then are there the two separate words (justice and mercy) in each of the various languages?

“…mercy, which is so central in the Bible, has by and large been forgotten or been given very little attention in systematic theology. Christian spirituality and mysticism is way ahead of academic theology in this question, as in other questions.” --Ibid.

Romano Guardini was also a real Catholic theologian.

How might “discipline, train, correct, reform, restrain, refine” be relevant?
 
Brendan

God did not punish the Israelites, this is tribal theology.

Jim
Tribal theology? It is the plain and obvious wording of Scripture, Jim. Call it what you want, but it is fundamentally Catholic.
 
Tribal theology? It is the plain and obvious wording of Scripture, Jim. Call it what you want, but it is fundamentally Catholic.
Tribal theology saw everything that took place as God’s will, including chastisements and the Israelites battle victories, which included the slaughter of Canaanites when they entered the Promised Land.

Radical Islam today isn’t much different than the Old Testament Jews where they view everything as being God’s will, including their lack of mercy towards people not of their religious sect.

Jesus gave us a different understanding of God than one who punishes and rewards according to deeds.

Jim
 
Tribal theology saw everything that took place as God’s will, including chastisements and the Israelites battle victories, which included the slaughter of Canaanites when they entered the Promised Land.
How about the times that God specifically sent punishments, such as the deadly serpents
From Mount Hor they set out by way of the Red Sea, to bypass the land of Edom, but the people’s patience was worn out by the journey;
so the people complained against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness, where there is no food or water? We are disgusted with this wretched food!”*
**So the LORD sent among the people *seraph serpents, which bite the people so that many of the Israelites died
Numbers 21:5-6

That is not just the Jews blaming God for a natural occurrence, it was God specifically inflicting a punishment in response to the Israelites turning their hearts against Him.
 
And Constantine begged for forgiveness for that offence when St. Nicholas was released.

And when St. Nicholas was asked by Our Lady, “why are you imprisioned”, he response was “For Loving You”

Was St. Nicholas wrong to state that?, Our Lady did not think so, for she later appeared to the Arians to defend him.

Then why did Constantine seek forgiveness FROM St. Nicholas?
. How right Cardinal Kasper is about some being imprisoned by legalism!
I see that as a very poorly constructed defense argument for judgement and violence in the confessional but it worries me more that you are attempting to discredit Pope Francis surreptitiously. :rolleyes:
 
Brendan;
How about the times that God specifically sent punishments, such as the deadly serpents
Again, tribal theology. They related everything to being caused by God, good and bad.

When it was good it was because they were being obedient, when it was bad, it was because they disobeyed God.

Much the same mindset as radical Islam today.

Jesus showed us otherwise when he cured the man blind at birth, who was told it was because of his parents sins.

Jim
 
I see that as a very poorly constructed defense argument for judgement and violence in the confessional
It is simply an example of Saintly behavior that can be misconstrued. Heck, Constantine misconscruded it, but he had the courtesty to apologize afterward.
but it worries me more that you are attempting to discredit Pope Francis surreptitiously. :rolleyes:
Interesting accusation, what proof do you offer.
 
But it is Scripture itself that is making that claim, not simply a bunch of tribesmen.
Gods relationship with the people of the Old Testament reflected a pre Christian relationship which is utterly through Christ.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know* my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” - John 14 6-7**

The esteemed patron of mercy, St Faustina reported in diary entry 299 telling want Jesus told her the meaning of the image was…

*These two rays issued forth from the very depths of My tender mercy when My
agonized Heart was opened by a lance on the Cross.

These rays shield souls from the wrath of My Father. Happy is the one who will
dwell in their shelter, for the just hand of God shall not lay hold of him. *

Jesus also said…“Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”- John 14 12

You are mistaken to think that we are to act towards each other as the God of the old testament acted towards His people. Jesus specifically commands us to act like Him.*
 
But it is Scripture itself that is making that claim, not simply a bunch of tribesmen.
Its tribesmen who wrote the Scripture, and it serves the purpose of giving us God’s long range will in bringing us salvation in Jesus Christ.

Jim
 
Originally Posted by LongingSoul
I see that as a very poorly constructed defense argument for judgement and violence in the confessional.
Nicholas punching Arius in the face is not the justification for Priests to berate people in confession. It’s a fallacious argument from artifice… weak, convoluted and meaningless.
but it worries me more that you are attempting to discredit Pope Francis surreptitiously.
Interesting accusation, what proof do you offer.

Follow the tract from #44 onwards. What do you think Pope Francis means when he tells Priests not to hear confession if they want to berate people because that is not merciful? Give us a clear honest view of your position.
 
Its tribesmen who wrote the Scripture, and it serves the purpose of giving us God’s long range will in bringing us salvation in Jesus Christ.

Jim
It is tribesmen who wrote it as the Inspired Word of God, will the fullness of Moral Truth.

There is no act in there that is attributed to God that is not in the fullness of the Moral Truth, nor can there be, as the Holy Spirit prevents such errors.
 
Nicholas punching Arius in the face is not the justification for Priests to berate people in confession. It’s a fallacious argument from artifice… weak, convoluted and meaningless.
It is a prime example of saintly admonishment, and the fullness of the true Mercy.
Follow the tract from #44 onwards. What do you think Pope Francis means when he tells Priests not to hear confession if they want to berate people because that is not merciful? Give us a clear honest view of your position.
And my point is, how do we distinguish admonishment from beratement.

When St. John the Baptist referred to the Pharisees as “brood of vipers”, what category did that fall into, especially since they were coming to be baptized ( albeit a non-sacramental one at that time)

Did the Holy Father mean on rebuke behavior such as St. John’s?
 
And my point is, how do we distinguish admonishment from beratement.

When St. John the Baptist referred to the Pharisees as “brood of vipers”, what category did that fall into, especially since they were coming to be baptized ( albeit a non-sacramental one at that time)

Did the Holy Father mean on rebuke behavior such as St. John’s?
And again I’ll charge you with argument from artifice. In your argument, are you claiming that the Pharisees who were proud, legalistic, judgmental, hard hearted and unrepentent… exactly the same as a penitant presenting at confession for absolution? How does you analagy work and again I’ll ask you… what do you think Pope Francis meant?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top