Cardinal Kasper: Sacraments for remarried divorcees only in "special cases"

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vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/kasper-32230/

Walter Cardinal Kasper (80) addressed the Extraordinary Consistory on the family recently. Though his speech is not publicly available and the media were not permitted access, Vatican Insider reports some details of the goings on.

According to Vatican Insider’s Andrea Tornielli, His Eminence ruled out an “easy” and “general” rule regarding the possibility of receiving the Sacraments after divorce and remarriage. It was, however, possible to examine the individual case closely and rethink their handling, based on the practice of the Early Church.

Cardinal Kasper is said to have offered an example as follows:
Kasper then referred [to the] example of the early Church and to a practice to which Joseph Ratzinger had referred to back in 1972 when he was still a professor. He recalled what happened to the apostates, those Christians who denied their own baptism out of weakness, during persecution. For these special cases, the Church came up with a Canonical penitential practice, sort of like a second baptism, but not with water, with “tears of penitence”. After their ship had sunk in sin, the castaway could not have another ship, but they were given a life raft.
In the case of marriage too, some local Churches introduced a practice according to which, Christians who separated from their still living partner and had entered into a second union, did not after a certain period of penance get to marry a second time (in other words they didn’t get a new ship), but they were given a life raft in the form of communion. Origen, Basil the Great and Gregory of Nazianzus all spoke of this.
 
Well, that’s not exactly ground-breaking and doesn’t require a return to a long-lost practice in some particular Churches of the first centuries. Such a “case by case” application is the way it can work now. See here, in part 2c

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20000706_declaration_en.html

and Familiaris consortio, n. 84.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html

Dan
 
There already is a procedure for remarried divorcees to receive the Sacraments, stop living in sin. Remember, receiving communion will do them no good if they continue to commit adultery and end up in Hell for eternity. We might pat ourselves on the back at how wonderfully inclusive we are being, how kind we are being, but we might find ourselves in Hell next to them for failing to preach repentance. This whole conversation issues forth from the false premise of universalism.
 
SO what does that mean? Divorced people can take communion now? I have a hard time thinking the local parishes will see it that way? I would love to see this by the way as my own parents are precluded from communion because of previous divorce.
 
There already is a procedure for remarried divorcees to receive the Sacraments, stop living in sin. Remember, receiving communion will do them no good if they continue to commit adultery and end up in Hell for eternity. We might pat ourselves on the back at how wonderfully inclusive we are being, how kind we are being, but we might find ourselves in Hell next to them for failing to preach repentance. This whole conversation issues forth from the false premise of universalism.
I love how quick you are to say people are going to hell…as a catholic if rome says its ok to accept communion then your belief of what the old church used to teach (if this were in fact true) would be null and void and you would be sitting in hell for casting stones.
 
There already is a procedure for remarried divorcees to receive the Sacraments, stop living in sin. Remember, receiving communion will do them no good if they continue to commit adultery and end up in Hell for eternity. We might pat ourselves on the back at how wonderfully inclusive we are being, how kind we are being, but we might find ourselves in Hell next to them for failing to preach repentance. This whole conversation issues forth from the false premise of universalism.
Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn’t have to do it himself, huh? :rolleyes:
 
I love how quick you are to say people are going to hell…as a catholic if rome says its ok to accept communion then your belief of what the old church used to teach (if this were in fact true) would be null and void and you would be sitting in hell for casting stones.
I’m sorry, but you are wrong here.

  1. *]The Church has never changed, and in fact cannot change, doctrine.
    *]It has always been Catholic teaching that those who die in a state of mortal sin go to Hell. The poster’s asserting this belief is not wrong. It doesn’t matter of what kind the sin is, as long as it is mortal. Adultery is, so is murder, so is homosexual behaviour and so is receiving Communion in a state of mortal sin.
 
I’m sorry, but you are wrong here.

  1. *]The Church has never changed, and in fact cannot change, doctrine.
    *]It has always been Catholic teaching that those who die in a state of mortal sin go to Hell. The poster’s asserting this belief is not wrong. It doesn’t matter of what kind the sin is, as long as it is mortal. Adultery is, so is murder, so is homosexual behaviour and so is receiving Communion in a state of mortal sin.

  1. So what was this original post about? To me it was the availability of communion for those that have been divorced and have done their pennance. When you say the church can not change your pretty full of yourself as it has changed doctrine and its teachings many times over 2000 years.
 
So what was this original post about? To me it was the availability of communion for those that have been divorced and have done their pennance. When you say the church can not change your pretty full of yourself as it has changed doctrine and its teachings many times over 2000 years.
It says in the article what this is about.

I beg your pardon? Please tell me just one of the “many” doctrines that were changed “many times” in the past?
 
There already is a procedure for remarried divorcees to receive the Sacraments, stop living in sin. Remember, receiving communion will do them no good if they continue to commit adultery and end up in Hell for eternity. We might pat ourselves on the back at how wonderfully inclusive we are being, how kind we are being, but we might find ourselves in Hell next to them for failing to preach repentance. This whole conversation issues forth from the false premise of universalism.
👍 👍 👍
 
Do we wonder why catholocism is peing left by the droves? This is one of those things I struggle with… My grandmother was married and divorced and remarried. Was unable to take communion untill recently when the first husband died. Heres the screwed up part…it was because of people like you literalists and you hell fire talks that precluded he from taking communion all along. She could have gotten an anulment as the marriage was arrainged and he beat her almost to death on a number of occasions. She never got an anulment because it was taboo at the time and just lived as an outcast in the community.

Now hes dead and she is ok in the church again? even though she remarried (in the church lol) and lived in sin for 70 years in an adulterous marriage. But hey if she goes to confession after his death all that **** is washed away?

Now on to my folks. Mom is wanting to convert from methodist to catholocism but has a previous marriage. My dad has one too but it was anulled (hes catholic). Except he married my mom who was divorced and had me. So hes going to hell for living in an adulterous relationship and so is my mom.

Yea and you wonder why people leave…dont give me the church has never changed bull as you are a complete fool if you truly believe that.
 
Do we wonder why catholocism is peing left by the droves? This is one of those things I struggle with… My grandmother was married and divorced and remarried. Was unable to take communion untill recently when the first husband died. Heres the screwed up part…it was because of people like you literalists and you hell fire talks that precluded he from taking communion all along. She could have gotten an anulment as the marriage was arrainged and he beat her almost to death on a number of occasions. She never got an anulment because it was taboo at the time and just lived as an outcast in the community.

Now hes dead and she is ok in the church again? even though she remarried (in the church lol) and lived in sin for 70 years in an adulterous marriage. But hey if she goes to confession after his death all that **** is washed away?

Now on to my folks. Mom is wanting to convert from methodist to catholocism but has a previous marriage. My dad has one too but it was anulled (hes catholic). Except he married my mom who was divorced and had me. So hes going to hell for living in an adulterous relationship and so is my mom.

Yea and you wonder why people leave…dont give me the church has never changed bull as you are a complete fool if you truly believe that.
Now look here. I would believe all here are sorry for the situation of your grandmother, I certainly am. But we need not engage in name calling here, Sir. You call Christ’s Church, who is vested with His authority to speak, “literalist” and a “hell fire talk”. By extension, you are including the Church Fathers, and by golly, Our Lord Himself! It was Him who taught that marriage is indissoluble and that mortal sin leads to Hell.

Reverting to your grandmother’s situation: I repeat, it is tragic that she did not know that annulments were an option. You will understand that we cannot possibly determine, or even dare to presume to know, whether your grandmother would have got an annulment.

You have a thread on this, and I recommend you keep the posts there. Both because it will be easier for you and because it will keep this thread on topic.

By the way, Catholicism (in its correct spelling) is growing, not shrinking.

If you continue to throw insults at me and fellow posters, I shall have to report your newly-created account to the moderators. And while we’re on the subject: Why chuck ad hominems about if your argument is supposedly so obviously true, namely that the Church has changed doctrine? Give us one example.
 
I think this must be what prompted Canon Lawyer Ed Peters to write this article:

The human price of theological chatter

There is a reason these talks given by the cardinals are not recorded for general dissemination to the media. The cardinals are presenting various views to hash out what is really in line with Catholic teaching. To catch these little tid bits (assuming they are even accurate) leads to confusion and false hope.
 
It says in the article what this is about.

I beg your pardon? Please tell me just one of the “many” doctrines that were changed “many times” in the past?
If religions are alive, as Catholicism surely is, they change. But while some changes may reflect a justifiable, even necessary, adaptation to new knowledge or circumstances, others may be a trimming of religious truth. How do you tell the difference? It is a question brought into sharp focus again with the death of Pope John Paul II and the election of Benedict XVI.

Historically, Catholicism solved the problem of change simply by denying it. Understandings of the Trinity, the priesthood, the papacy, the Mass and the sacraments that emerged over a long time were projected back into New Testament texts. Theologians joked that when a pope or other official circuitously introduced a modification of church teaching, he would begin, ‘‘As the church has always taught. . . .’’

Such denial, still widespread, means that examining change in official teaching – or what became known in the 19th century as ‘‘development of doctrine’’ – poses two challenges: first, to establish that alterations – some more than minor – have unquestionably occurred; and second, to show how they can be reconciled with the church’s claim to preach the same essential message Jesus and his disciples did 2,000 years ago, presumably deriving criteria that can help distinguish legitimate evolution in the future from deviations or betrayals.

In ‘‘A Church That Can and Cannot Change,’’ some Catholic moral doctrines have changed radically. History, he concludes, does not support the comforting notion that the church simply elaborates on or expands previous teachings without contradicting them.

Slavery. John Paul II included slavery among matters that are ‘‘intrinsically evil’’ – prohibited ‘‘always and forever’’ and ‘‘without any exception’’ – a violation of a universal, immutable norm. Yet slavery in some form was accepted as a fact of life in both Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, in much Christian theology and in Catholic teaching well into the 19th century. Christianity achieved a radical transvaluation of slavery. Jesus presented himself as a slave; slaves became saints; slavery became a metaphor and model for Christian life. Yet neither Jesus nor his followers directly challenged the institution of slavery. The fathers of the church accepted the buying, selling and owning of human beings. So did the popes: Muslim slaves were manning papal galleys until 1800. So did religious orders: Jesuits in colonial Maryland owned slaves, as did nuns in Europe and Latin America. Even St. Peter Claver, who in Colombia befriended, instructed and baptized African slaves, bought slaves to serve as interpreters. Theologians challenged abuses of slaveholding but rarely the practice itself.

It was at the urging of Protestant Britain that the papacy condemned the slave trade in 1839. In 1888, after every Christian nation had abolished slavery, the Vatican finally condemned it – with a kind of historical rewriting and self-congratulation that palpably offends Noonan’s sense of honesty.

Other exhibits deal with usury, religious freedom and marriage. Lending money for interest, long condemned as usury, became accepted as lawful. In certain cases, modern popes have claimed the power to dissolve marriages once considered indissoluble. And instead of insisting on government’s imposing legal penalties, including death, to uphold religious truth, today the church positively forbids it. Compared with treatment of slavery, most regrettably perhaps in the case of religious freedom. Vatican II’s Declaration on Religious Liberty reversed a long-held position that ‘‘error has no rights,’’ despite the fact that only a few years previously a theologian like John Courtney Murray, the Jesuit whose defense of American separation of church and state laid the groundwork for the decree, had been silenced. This kind of dramatic rehabilitation gives heart, rightly or wrongly, to critics of other teachings, like those on women’s ordination or sexual morality.

The four case studies demonstrate beyond question the fact and the extent of change. But do they offer insights that might aid Catholics in distinguishing legitimate from illegitimate developments in doctrine? In a negative sense, yes. In an unchanging element in Catholic teaching, a core continuity from Jesus to today. But from the cases one can deduce no rules of thumb to determine what falls within this continuity. The cases contravene the organic image of a gradual unfolding of latent truth. Nor does one find that categories like ‘‘unnatural’’ or ‘‘intrinsic evil,’’ meant to sort out the immutable from the mutable, make solid sense of past changes.

Genuine development arises from experience deepened by empathy. ‘‘That your love abound more and more in knowledge and in insight of every kind so that you test what is vital,’’ St. Paul wrote

St. Augustine’s rule of faith: a true understanding of divine revelation is one that will ‘‘build up that double love of God and of neighbor.’’
 
I think this must be what prompted Canon Lawyer Ed Peters to write this article:

The human price of theological chatter

There is a reason these talks given by the cardinals are not recorded for general dissemination to the media. The cardinals are presenting various views to hash out what is really in line with Catholic teaching. To catch these little tid bits (assuming they are even accurate) leads to confusion and false hope.
Thanks for the link to the marvellous Ed Peters. 🙂 I’ll read it shortly. I read on a Bishops’ Conference’s news site that Pope Francis endorsed Cardinal Kasper’s view.
 
If religions are alive, as Catholicism surely is, they change. But while some changes may reflect a justifiable, even necessary, adaptation to new knowledge or circumstances, others may be a trimming of religious truth. How do you tell the difference? It is a question brought into sharp focus again with the death of Pope John Paul II and the election of Benedict XVI.

Historically, Catholicism solved the problem of change simply by denying it. Understandings of the Trinity, the priesthood, the papacy, the Mass and the sacraments that emerged over a long time were projected back into New Testament texts. Theologians joked that when a pope or other official circuitously introduced a modification of church teaching, he would begin, ‘‘As the church has always taught. . . .’’

Such denial, still widespread, means that examining change in official teaching – or what became known in the 19th century as ‘‘development of doctrine’’ – poses two challenges: first, to establish that alterations – some more than minor – have unquestionably occurred; and second, to show how they can be reconciled with the church’s claim to preach the same essential message Jesus and his disciples did 2,000 years ago, presumably deriving criteria that can help distinguish legitimate evolution in the future from deviations or betrayals.

In ‘‘A Church That Can and Cannot Change,’’ some Catholic moral doctrines have changed radically. History, he concludes, does not support the comforting notion that the church simply elaborates on or expands previous teachings without contradicting them.

Slavery. John Paul II included slavery among matters that are ‘‘intrinsically evil’’ – prohibited ‘‘always and forever’’ and ‘‘without any exception’’ – a violation of a universal, immutable norm. Yet slavery in some form was accepted as a fact of life in both Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, in much Christian theology and in Catholic teaching well into the 19th century. Christianity achieved a radical transvaluation of slavery. Jesus presented himself as a slave; slaves became saints; slavery became a metaphor and model for Christian life. Yet neither Jesus nor his followers directly challenged the institution of slavery. The fathers of the church accepted the buying, selling and owning of human beings. So did the popes: Muslim slaves were manning papal galleys until 1800. So did religious orders: Jesuits in colonial Maryland owned slaves, as did nuns in Europe and Latin America. Even St. Peter Claver, who in Colombia befriended, instructed and baptized African slaves, bought slaves to serve as interpreters. Theologians challenged abuses of slaveholding but rarely the practice itself.

It was at the urging of Protestant Britain that the papacy condemned the slave trade in 1839. In 1888, after every Christian nation had abolished slavery, the Vatican finally condemned it – with a kind of historical rewriting and self-congratulation that palpably offends Noonan’s sense of honesty.

Other exhibits deal with usury, religious freedom and marriage. Lending money for interest, long condemned as usury, became accepted as lawful. In certain cases, modern popes have claimed the power to dissolve marriages once considered indissoluble. And instead of insisting on government’s imposing legal penalties, including death, to uphold religious truth, today the church positively forbids it. Compared with treatment of slavery, most regrettably perhaps in the case of religious freedom. Vatican II’s Declaration on Religious Liberty reversed a long-held position that ‘‘error has no rights,’’ despite the fact that only a few years previously a theologian like John Courtney Murray, the Jesuit whose defense of American separation of church and state laid the groundwork for the decree, had been silenced. This kind of dramatic rehabilitation gives heart, rightly or wrongly, to critics of other teachings, like those on women’s ordination or sexual morality.

The four case studies demonstrate beyond question the fact and the extent of change. But do they offer insights that might aid Catholics in distinguishing legitimate from illegitimate developments in doctrine? In a negative sense, yes. In an unchanging element in Catholic teaching, a core continuity from Jesus to today. But from the cases one can deduce no rules of thumb to determine what falls within this continuity. The cases contravene the organic image of a gradual unfolding of latent truth. Nor does one find that categories like ‘‘unnatural’’ or ‘‘intrinsic evil,’’ meant to sort out the immutable from the mutable, make solid sense of past changes.

Genuine development arises from experience deepened by empathy. ‘‘That your love abound more and more in knowledge and in insight of every kind so that you test what is vital,’’ St. Paul wrote

St. Augustine’s rule of faith: a true understanding of divine revelation is one that will ‘‘build up that double love of God and of neighbor.’’
Why not phrase it in your own words, rather than those of the New York Times by copying and pasting almost the entire article of someone who advocates the once-and-for-all settled ordination of women?
 
Now look here. I would believe all here are sorry for the situation of your grandmother, I certainly am. But we need not engage in name calling here, Sir. You call Christ’s Church, who is vested with His authority to speak, “literalist” and a “hell fire talk”. By extension, you are including the Church Fathers, and by golly, Our Lord Himself! It was Him who taught that marriage is indissoluble and that mortal sin leads to Hell.

Reverting to your grandmother’s situation: I repeat, it is tragic that she did not know that annulments were an option. You will understand that we cannot possibly determine, or even dare to presume to know, whether your grandmother would have got an annulment.

You have a thread on this, and I recommend you keep the posts there. Both because it will be easier for you and because it will keep this thread on topic.

By the way, Catholicism (in its correct spelling) is growing, not shrinking.

If you continue to throw insults at me and fellow posters, I shall have to report your newly-created account to the moderators. And while we’re on the subject: Why chuck ad hominems about if your argument is supposedly so obviously true, namely that the Church has changed doctrine? Give us one example.
Hey CutlerB by all means go ahead and tell daddy if thats how you play in the sandbox I can imagine that the grace of friendship is far from your reach! the above I posted is a work by a guy named PETER STEINFELS i thought it was fitting for this situation…

lets also not forget what happened FOUR decades ago, Roman Catholics were hit over the head by revisions of church teaching and practice authorized by the world’s bishops at the Second Vatican Council. If the language of the Mass, prohibition of meat on Friday and, most striking, the church’s unrelenting contrast between its truths and the errors of every other religion could be altered, what couldn’t be? Doctrine on contraception? Divorce and remarriage? Capital punishment? Same-sex relationships? Ordination of women?
 
Hey CutlerB by all means go ahead and tell daddy if thats how you play in the sandbox I can imagine that the grace of friendship is far from your reach! the above I posted is a work by a guy named PETER STEINFELS i thought it was fitting for this situation…

lets also not forget what happened FOUR decades ago, Roman Catholics were hit over the head by revisions of church teaching and practice authorized by the world’s bishops at the Second Vatican Council. If the language of the Mass, prohibition of meat on Friday and, most striking, the church’s unrelenting contrast between its truths and the errors of every other religion could be altered, what couldn’t be? Doctrine on contraception? Divorce and remarriage? Capital punishment? Same-sex relationships? Ordination of women?
if you want to get in a pissing match over whos brain is bigger ill concede that to you brother. Im just an old soldier trying to find his way. Yes im gruff at times and have a particular vulgarity built into my very character but please go on with how awsome you are
 
Hey CutlerB by all means go ahead and tell daddy if thats how you play in the sandbox I can imagine that the grace of friendship is far from your reach! the above I posted is a work by a guy named PETER STEINFELS i thought it was fitting for this situation…

lets also not forget what happened FOUR decades ago, Roman Catholics were hit over the head by revisions of church teaching and practice authorized by the world’s bishops at the Second Vatican Council. If the language of the Mass, prohibition of meat on Friday and, most striking, the church’s unrelenting contrast between its truths and the errors of every other religion could be altered, what couldn’t be? Doctrine on contraception? Divorce and remarriage? Capital punishment? Same-sex relationships? Ordination of women?
The rules of this sandbox, to which you agreed, Sir, when you signed up, are that you do not insult people on the forums. That’s the deal.

Yes, the guy is Peter Steinfels (interesting name by the way), someone who also advocates the ordination of women as Catholic priests and deacons in direct contradiction to the Catholic teaching.

Your reading of Vatican II is not the topic of this thread. Open another one, and ask politely there, and I am sure you’ll have some good discussion. Your listing of “meat on Friday” and “Language of the Mass” prove that you do not know what is meant by “the Church cannot change her doctrine”. Those matters are not doctrinal.
 
Heres where I find myself on my journey. Im about a stones throw away from attending a seminary to get my Masters in Philosophical Theology so im sure your cradentials are far greater than mine…for now. All religion aside your exactly the person I was explaining in my original post about ultra traditionalists and hell fire bringers. Your attitude of trying to deminish someone intelligence is certainly not refreshing and your threat to tell on me is just commical.
 
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