Cardinal Lehman: "I can envision Women at the Altar"

[Tigg]

How does the Church know what is in a woman’s heart?

Consequently you are implying that any desire of a woman is good and holy, even one that opposes the *authority *of the Church. “I will do it my way” these women say who refuse to assent their minds and wills to what God has revealed as truth through His vehicle, the Church.

 

[Lapey]

What all of you seem to be missing is this: frankly, whether women are not “allowed” to be priests or whether the Church has no “authority” to ordain women is immaterial to me. What I am trying to get across is that people here are saying untoward things about women who seek to be priests and trying to pass their opinions off as “gospel”. Can’t you understand the words “mean-spirited”?

I emphasized the words you need to pray about.

There is more mean spiritedness in the feel good continuation of leading on women to believe that one day they will be able to be priests. It would be more productive and charitable to concentrate on the dignity of women rather than the lack of dignity in wanting to be something a woman is not.

A priest is a spiritual father; the Mass is a wedding feast between Jesus and His bride the Church to have a female priest is to witness a same sex marriage. God Himself is portrayed in a masculine way and seen as Father, Jesus came as a man. Mary was and is a complete woman and never took a position outside of her womanly dignity.

There is nothing dignified in these “women priests” who act like they can stand in “persona Christi” at the altar. Mary knelt at the foot of the cross; Jesus was nailed to the cross.

Women will never be priests, it cannot happen. This is fact proven by the Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterium; to think otherwise is heretical thinking. To teach otherwise is heresy. To act contrary to this brings excommunication. So when you question comments about others who say there cannot be a legitimate calling to the priesthood by God, to a woman, you do not understand God nor do you trust Him. You trust your own “feelings” and ideas that is why I highlighted your “to me” comment.

This argument is both old, and settled. The only thing not settled is the insistence on bringing change to the unchanging, truth.

 

[Lapey]

So…the Church says that it is “impossible” for women to get called? How does the Church know what is in a woman’s heart? How can we ignore and demean such feelings? And, nope, the subject isn’t closed and women’s claims have validity despite what is being said here.

A little help for you here, the Church does not claim to know what is in a woman’s heart, or a man’s heart for that matter. I think you misunderstand what it means to be “called to a vocation”.

It is not up to the “called” alone whether a person will be called to a vocation. The Church also discerns the call of a person, male or female. Before a person seeking an ordained vocation is accepted, the Church goes through a discernment process and must also feel that the person is called. I had 27 men apply to the formation class I was in, all thought they qualified and all felt the calling to the diaconate; 9 were ordained 5 years after starting with 27. One of the 18 who were not ordained was divorced and never sought an annulment; he didn’t feel it was needed but the Church disagreed so he was out. Others had issues in their past which excluded them; still others dropped out because of young children or other reasons. Ordination is not for everyone, it is for the called; calling to the individual and Mother Church.

A person may “feel the call” and I don’t question their feelings, I do question their calling; which is called discernment. If they “feel called” to a ministry which is not available then the discernment is easy; the Church does not “feel the calling” for those. It is just that simple.

 

[GraceSofia]

I emphasized the words you need to pray about.

There is more mean spiritedness in the feel good continuation of leading on women to believe that one day they will be able to be priests. It would be more productive and charitable to concentrate on the dignity of women rather than the lack of dignity in wanting to be something a woman is not.

A priest is a spiritual father; the Mass is a wedding feast between Jesus and His bride the Church to have a female priest is to witness a same sex marriage. God Himself is portrayed in a masculine way and seen as Father, Jesus came as a man. Mary was and is a complete woman and never took a position outside of her womanly dignity.

There is nothing dignified in these “women priests” who act like they can stand in “persona Christi” at the altar. Mary knelt at the foot of the cross; Jesus was nailed to the cross.

Women will never be priests, it cannot happen. This is fact proven by the Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterium; to think otherwise is heretical thinking. To teach otherwise is heresy. To act contrary to this brings excommunication. So when you question comments about others who say there cannot be a legitimate calling to the priesthood by God, to a woman, you do not understand God nor do you trust Him. You trust your own “feelings” and ideas that is why I highlighted your “to me” comment.

This argument is both old, and settled. The only thing not settled is the insistence on bringing change to the unchanging, truth.

 

[revert_jen]

What all of you seem to be missing is this: frankly, whether women are not “allowed” to be priests or whether the Church has no “authority” to ordain women is immaterial to me. What I am trying to get across is that people here are saying untoward things about women who seek to be priests and trying to pass their opinions off as “gospel”. Can’t you understand the words “mean-spirited”?

To me it comes down to this: Either the Church is what she says she is–the Church established by Christ and guided and preserved from error by the Holy Spirit–or she isn’t.

If she is, you need to accept her dogmatic (as opposed to disciplinary) teaching without argument or trying to change what can’t be changed.

If she isn’t, why would you want to be ordained?

I have felt a call to be a mother since I was 17. I’m not married and it seems unlikely at this point that I will ever be a mother. That doesn’t make it OK for me to go make a withdrawal from the local sperm bank, or to try to change the Church’s unchangeable teaching on conception outside marriage. I carry that cross out of love of Christ. Of course, it’s not exactly the same. The thing I feel called to is not in itself contrary to the teachings of the Church (for sure!!). But whether I psychologically gave myself a call that is not from God, or whether the call was genuine, but due to my sins or those of others cannot be answered, the fact is that the presence of a perceived call is not license to sin in order to answer it.

–Jen

 

[Brendan]

So…the Church says that it is “impossible” for women to get called? How does the Church know what is in a woman’s heart? How can we ignore and demean such feelings? .

You misunderstanding is that you consider a calling to be an internal act. It does not occur in the heart, or in the feelings.

A calling from God occurs in the Mind of God. It is then either accepted or rejected. It is not a feeling at all, so one cannot ignore what does not exist.

The Church has no need to see into the heart of a woman. It only needs to know the Mind of God.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Ambiguous. But not as ambiguous as this statement by the late Karl Rahner concerning women priests:

Rome is digging in its heels, it seems to me, against the development that one ought to admit calmly might not be a bad thing.

Nothing per se wrong, but definitely implies something incompatible with Catholicism. I see this to a lesser extent in Lehmann’s interview.

Coincidentally, he was once an assistant to Rahner in Munich.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

So…the Church says that it is “impossible” for women to get called? How does the Church know what is in a woman’s heart? How can we ignore and demean such feelings? And, nope, the subject isn’t closed and women’s claims have validity despite what is being said here.

The Church doesn’t need to know that to decide if women should be Priests or not. The Church knows what is in God’s heart and that is the only heart that matters because its God’s church, not mine or yours.

The subject is closed to faithful Catholics.

 

[m134e5]

Wow. So…no women anywhere really want to serve God in a fashion other than becoming a nun? That’s painting with a pretty broad brush. I infer that, even if the Church did allow the ordination of women, you believe women would only do it for “power” and that women priests would not be “service-oriented”. Are you saying that women, in general, do not “focus exclusively on the things of this world and in no way demonstrate a mindfulness of eternal things”? 'cause there’s probably a lot of women in Heaven that would disagree with you.

I never implied that no women anywhere truly wanted to serve God in ways other than becoming nuns. I only said they couldn’t receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. There are plenty of ways women can serve the Church. They can be lay evangelists- and many Catholic lay women have done an outstanding job at this.

When a notorious murderer shows no remorse for their crimes, no one asks the one who said they had no remorse for proof of that- you can SEE it if you’re willing to look- there’s rarely any questioning of that. Many Catholics, including myself, can see very clearly that the most outspoken supporters of women’s ordination see it simply as opportunity for power that they are currently being denied.

 

[NeedsMercy]

You know, my only point in posting in this thread was to voice my dismay about some of the generalizations being made about women who wanted to be priests. You’ve managed to trash them even more. Congratulations. I’m out.

 

[GraceSofia]

You know, my only point in posting in this thread was to voice my dismay about some of the generalizations being made about women who wanted to be priests. You’ve managed to trash them even more. Congratulations. I’m out.

I don’t think that was your only point. You wanted to voice your dissent and promote women’s ordination as per posts such as this:

So…the Church says that it is “impossible” for women to get called? How does the Church know what is in a woman’s heart? How can we ignore and demean such feelings? And, nope, the subject isn’t closed and women’s claims have validity despite what is being said here.

I am sad to find that I – and others-- wasted our time talking to you and finding good links to Vatican documents, John Paull II’s letters, etc, since you never commented on any of them, and I surmise never read any of them.

 

[NeedsMercy]

I don’t think that was your only point. You wanted to voice your dissent and promote women’s ordination as per posts such as this:

I am sad to find that I – and others-- wasted our time talking to you and finding good links to Vatican documents, John Paull II’s letters, etc, since you never commented on any of them, and I surmise never read any of them.

I didn’t ask any of you to proselytize. You did that on your own. If you’re it’s not my problem. And taking shots at somebody after they’re out is…well, it’s

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think it is sad that someone can believe it is possible for a Catholic to proselytize a Catholic. Or, perhaps I think it is sad that it should be necessary.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I didn’t ask any of you to proselytize. You did that on your own.

You invited and/or required responses on posts 34, 35, 36, 44, 46, 51, and 53. You questioned the basis for the teaching. You were given the courtesy of replies.

The Church does not call Catholic dogma “proselytizing” when spoken to Catholics. The Church assumes that, per one’s baptism and confirmation, a Catholic embraces dogma by definition.

 

[Memaw]

I didn’t ask any of you to proselytize. You did that on your own. If you’re it’s not my problem. And taking shots at somebody after they’re out is…well, it’s

doesn’t appear your were actually out! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Lapey]

I didn’t ask any of you to proselytize. You did that on your own. If you’re it’s not my problem. And taking shots at somebody after they’re out is…well, it’s

Do you know what this means? A Catholic cannot proselytize Catholics. What you have experienced is fraternal correction because of error. When we speak out publicly against the Church dogma and doctrines, we are speaking heresy; faithful Catholics are required to correct so others not knowing better will not be led astray.

Please look to Mother Church for truth.

 

[Tigg]

I didn’t ask any of you to proselytize. You did that on your own.

I don’t really see how you can post statements on a Catholic board that are contrary to a pope’s infallible teaching (Ordinatio Sacredotalis, a definitive declaration on a matter of doctrine concerning faith and morals) and not expect Catholics to respond.

Has it occurred to you that Catholics are called to make Christ known to others (sometimes even other Catholics who *may *have not received proper instruction) through the message of Truth? That by acknowledging the reality of Who Christ is through His teaching (again through HIS Church) others might be brought into a new life and spiritual growth? Or do you not believe that the Church has this authority? It is a fair question.