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CMatt25
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Nope. Not at all. One Church made up of humans. Some of who might believe and think and go around saying they know the one ultimate Truth. Others who understand faith is belief. Not knowing with 100% certainty.
Cardinal Martini, Biblical Scholar, Former Archbishop of Milan, Dies
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SpeakInSilence
Guest
Growing up in a Protestant home with a United Methodist Minister for 15 years I can honestly say this is what I believed the majority of my life; however the truth is the evidence about the early Christians say a different story.
There was only the Catholic Church for centuries after Christ’s Death. There was only the Catholic Church that gathered the different manuscripts and very carefully, and with the help of the holy spirit put together the Bible. It was the Catholic Church Christ talked and started.
The Protestant churches are schismatic, and when I was growing up in it I saw it clearly. Churches always splitting, always changing, always fighting over their interpretation. It was… a nightmare, and if it was what God intended, then Christianity will die in the face of rampant secularism.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Matt, I certainly do understand. Plenty of Protestants in my family and circle of friends.
But the fact is, people can ‘believe’ something that is wrong. With the greatest respect to those of my family and friends, they are wrong if they believe that churches which differ so greatly on core tenets are somehow ‘one’ . I’m sure their beliefs are honest and loving but you know, they’re still wrong. Being wrong doesn’t make people wicked, or stupid!
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rlg94086
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rlg94086
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rlg94086
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Btw…some of what you are saying is Catholic:
The reason I added “relativistic” is that there is only one Christ, so His teachings can’t have 1,000s of different meanings. While these 1,000s of individual churches have portions of the church, they are clearly not unified. I pray for eventual unity, but it will come under the auspices of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches first (who must, of course, unify), because they have the Apostolic succession.
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Havard
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From what I’ve read, the media has been distorting the late Cardinal’s statements. I’ve read that he never actually argued for divorce or for the use of contraception, that he merely said there should be ongoing dialogue with people who favor them.
So it appears a lot of people may be gravely misstating and misinterpreting his statements.
If I am mistaken, please correct me!
So it appears a lot of people may be gravely misstating and misinterpreting his statements.
If I am mistaken, please correct me!
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CMatt25
Guest
Oh ok, Tantum, I wasn’t sure by your earlier post. Yes human people can be wrong. That is the truth. To Protestants the core unifying tenet is Christ Lord and Savior. He is the One who breaks down walls. But no. I don’t know they’re still wrong. I know though it’s your faith to believe they are and to place faith in the Catholic Church’s interpretation of Herself and of history and of ECFs. Keep faith Tantum (and rLg and SpeakinSilence) and may God bless each of you along your journeys. Peace.
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rlg94086
Guest
And, you as well, CMatt25. I pray that God will help you continue your journey home to His One, Holy and Apostolic Church.
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Tantum_ergo
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I’ll second that!
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CMatt25
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Thank you both Tantum and rLg. I know you mean Catholic and I appreciate your prayers deeply. I truly do. But that ship may have permanently sailed since I’m not pure enough as I am to be accepted as one. Nor do I have the proper political views apparently. I’m fine though with my new path in my journey. I thank God. Your prayers mean a lot to me however and mine remain with you as well for His blessings always. Peace.I’ll second that!
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Tantum_ergo
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Oh Matt, it’s not about purity or poltical views. Heavens above, I have been a wicked sinner and I still am! I struggle with purity of mind, body, and heart every minute, and sometimes I fall HARD. If there was a purity ‘meter’ and I had to meet it to be Catholic, I’d fail. But I don’t give up. With God’s help, I am going to be the person He wants me to be, no matter what sins I struggle with.
Some people have no trouble with purity, Matt. They suffer with other sin predilections. NONE of us as Catholics is perfect. We are all sinful, struggling souls.
What you have to want is to move from where you are NOW (or were before) to where God wants you to be. If you’re struggling with purity, for example, you know God wants you to be pure. So you repent from sins before (and try to do penance for them out of love for Him), you strive to keep from doing them NOW (and if you fall, repent, confess, do penance etc.), and you work toward keeping pure in future.
And that goes for all sins.
As for the politics, nobody says that to be Catholic you MUST be Republican, or you CANNOT be Democrat, or independent, or Green, or totally apolitical.
I mean, speaking for myself, I look at every candidate from every perspective. If I’m voting say for state senator, and I have a choice of 3 from a field of 7, 2 Republican, 2 Democrat, 1 Libertarian, 1 Green, and 1 Independent, I don’t automatically pick the ones aligned with the party whose platform I most accept. To be honest, I find a couple of points on BOTH Democrat and Republican platforms to be absolutely AWFUL morally, and I find (believe it or not) a couple of points on BOTH Democrat and Republican platforms to be moral imperatives. I cannot call myself totally one or the other.
So I might wind up chosing a Republican who wanted to help bring business to the area, and a Democrat who wanted to help work with securing a wildlife sanctuary. . .provided the Republican wanting to bring business wasn’t also advocating say cutting out WIC and using the funds to bring in several WalMarts. . .and the Democrat wasn’t going to secure the wildlife sanctuary by closing down several family farms in the area!
There are many things to consider. Again, an inclination to one particular party does not preclude one’s being a good Catholic!
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CMatt25
Guest
Tantum, perhaps there’s no meter. But your religion says Catholic. So I’m going to assume you were either baptized in the Catholic Church and/or confirmed and haven’t been told you aren’t one based on how you vote or political views you express or because as you put it, you are a sinful and struggling soul. I actually though don’t spend a lot of time struggling with purity because I understand I’m human. I just try to do my best along my lifelong faith journey with Him. The human labeling has become less important to me now than it once was. Where I am made to feel welcomed and accepted by Christians is where I will be.
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JillianRose
Guest
I perfer the eenie-meenie-minie-mo approach to voting. Can’t be accused of anything. 
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
So what you’re saying is that the Catholic Church cobbled a bunch of stuff and that the ‘real Christianity’ was in stuff that ‘didn’t make it in’, proved because the stuff ‘survived’. .
Uh-huh.
It couldn’t POSSIBLY be that the same things the Catholic Church believes and teaches today had been among those’ things’ you speak of --that there didn’t exist groups of people believing in EXACTLY THOSE TEACHINGS while around them --kind of like today–people were jumping around trying to interpret the gospel and coming up with heresies --which the Church CONDEMNED but I notice you don’t mention that. . .
No, it all has to be a nebulous “You’re reading what the WINNERS chose, and there was a bunch of OTHER stuff that was probably closer to what Christ REALLY taught. You’re all living a lie ha ha ha”. . .
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
It’s hard when the ‘tone’ of a post seems to come across in a certain way not to respond in kind. . .even when one tries hard to give a more ‘neutral’ type of response.
So… .
The real issue Daddysgirl does seem to come down to trust.
It appears that there are some who trust to themselves only ('what read, what think, what understand.). There are some who trust others only ('what the media says, what the Church says, what my pastor says, what my friend says).
If we trust ourselves only, we can be blinded, for none of us is perfect. If we trust to others only, we can be blinded, for none of us is perfect. What to do?
If however there is someone who is perfect, we can trust that person.
That person is Jesus.
Now here comes the problem. If you trust that your knowledge of Jesus (which comes only from what you read, or hear, and is then considered only from your point of view as to what you want to, like to, or accept believing)., . .you can be blinded.
If you only listen to others and never think for yourself, you can be blinded.
The only way to truly know is to listen to as much as you can, listen to the points of others as much as you can (especially when they don’t sound ‘right’ to you), then take both the ‘doesn’t sound right’ and the ‘sounds right’ to Jesus.
Where do we find Him?
If we try to find Him only ‘in our hearts’ --oops, we can be misled.
If we try to find Him only where somebody else tells us He will be --oops, we can be misled.
We must find Him where He truly is. And He told us where He would be. In the Catholic Church He instituted.
We aren’t just ‘only listening to the Church". . .the Church is the bride of Christ and she is more than just listening to "Father so-and-so’ or ‘somebody’s blog. There is a huge wealth of information from the Church and it is NOT "the Church’s TAKE on what Jesus said, it is WHAT JESUS SAID’. We can go right to WHAT JESUS REALLY SAID.
THEN we can go not just to what He said, we can go to where He is NOW (the Church) and ask Him what he MEANT. We aren’t trying to figure it out by ourselves (we can be misled). We aren’t just asking other people’s opinions. We are asking HIM, Jesus, and He is responding the way that He Himself ‘set up’ --through the Holy Spirit whom He sent to guide the Church, to continue to proclaim WHAT HE SAID, and to help us understand when sometimes the words He said are taken out of context or others try to use them to claim He was teaching something else. We can know for sure because we use EVERYTHING God gave us --He himself, our own selves for His service, and the Church He gave as authority to help us to understand Him.
So… .
The real issue Daddysgirl does seem to come down to trust.
It appears that there are some who trust to themselves only ('what read, what think, what understand.). There are some who trust others only ('what the media says, what the Church says, what my pastor says, what my friend says).
If we trust ourselves only, we can be blinded, for none of us is perfect. If we trust to others only, we can be blinded, for none of us is perfect. What to do?
If however there is someone who is perfect, we can trust that person.
That person is Jesus.
Now here comes the problem. If you trust that your knowledge of Jesus (which comes only from what you read, or hear, and is then considered only from your point of view as to what you want to, like to, or accept believing)., . .you can be blinded.
If you only listen to others and never think for yourself, you can be blinded.
The only way to truly know is to listen to as much as you can, listen to the points of others as much as you can (especially when they don’t sound ‘right’ to you), then take both the ‘doesn’t sound right’ and the ‘sounds right’ to Jesus.
Where do we find Him?
If we try to find Him only ‘in our hearts’ --oops, we can be misled.
If we try to find Him only where somebody else tells us He will be --oops, we can be misled.
We must find Him where He truly is. And He told us where He would be. In the Catholic Church He instituted.
We aren’t just ‘only listening to the Church". . .the Church is the bride of Christ and she is more than just listening to "Father so-and-so’ or ‘somebody’s blog. There is a huge wealth of information from the Church and it is NOT "the Church’s TAKE on what Jesus said, it is WHAT JESUS SAID’. We can go right to WHAT JESUS REALLY SAID.
THEN we can go not just to what He said, we can go to where He is NOW (the Church) and ask Him what he MEANT. We aren’t trying to figure it out by ourselves (we can be misled). We aren’t just asking other people’s opinions. We are asking HIM, Jesus, and He is responding the way that He Himself ‘set up’ --through the Holy Spirit whom He sent to guide the Church, to continue to proclaim WHAT HE SAID, and to help us understand when sometimes the words He said are taken out of context or others try to use them to claim He was teaching something else. We can know for sure because we use EVERYTHING God gave us --He himself, our own selves for His service, and the Church He gave as authority to help us to understand Him.
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CMatt25
Guest
Hi Tantum I give you an “A” for effort. Nice try. What you miss is Jesus wasn’t even around on earth the first time the words, “Catholic Church” were used. So you can’t jump to the conclusion He told us He would be there without trust and faith in what someone else told you. Actually what we can read that Jesus clearly said was where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, there He is. You don’t even need to add the word “Catholic” for that.
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CMatt25
Guest
Thanks for this info and history lesson DG. I sometimes wonder the same. I once asked a Protestant about compilation of the Bible by the “Catholic” Church. His answer was God can use whatever group He wants at any time for His purpose. He’s God. I couldn’t argue much with that one. Like your signature btw. God bless you and peace.
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rlg94086
Guest
What does that have to do with anything? When the word “Catholic” was used for the Church, it was referring to the one Church, established by Christ, that had existed from the day He told Peter that he was the rock He was building His Church on up to the time the word was used.
Do you also have difficulty believing in the “Trinity,” since that word wasn’t used while Christ was around on earth?
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CMatt25
Guest
It had to do with Tantum saying Jesus told us He would be in the “Catholic” Church. But yes I know yours and Tantum’s faith is that the Church is the one called “Catholic” today. Protestants have faith the Church was being built on what Peter said about Jesus being the Messiah the Son of God. Both beliefs can and have been explained on CAF and elsewhere so I have no need to go into that.
No I don’t have trouble believing in the Trinity. I’m a Trinitarian Christian and was baptized in such a way. The bottom line is it all comes down to faith rLg. Even what I said earlier about Jesus saying where 2 or 3 are gathered there He is. Even that takes faith that Matthew got it right and his words were translated correctly along the way. And even before that point it takes a faith in God and in the NT story of Jesus. God bless you in your faith rLg and peace.
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